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G
The rapture will occur without warning and will be so QUIK!
phil lists one of the verses that prove the rapture happens , John 14, and, also 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of Christ coming from the sky to take UP with Him to HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, first, the dead in the ground , and, second those who are alive on Earth. It will be like those working in a field, one (believer) is taken while other (unbeliever) is left working, wondering what just happened. Scripture gives examples of this, too , Jesus, even, speaking, defining 'the rapture' without saying the word 'rapture' in a parable of the 'working in the field.'
phil lists one of the verses that prove the rapture happens , John 14, and, also 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of Christ coming from the sky to take UP with Him to HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, first, the dead in the ground , and, second those who are alive on Earth. It will be like those working in a field, one (believer) is taken while other (unbeliever) is left working, wondering what just happened. Scripture gives examples of this, too , Jesus, even, speaking, defining 'the rapture' without saying the word 'rapture' in a parable of the 'working in the field.'
N
, Jesus, even, speaking, defining 'the rapture' without saying the word 'rapture' in a parable of the 'working in the field.'
Thats not the case, the subject is antichrist, or false Christ, the one taken, is taken by that subject...( mark 13:14,21 ) etc. Not by Christ. Christ is returning here. Not going anywhere. I gave some scriptures and talked about this a few posts before.
The rapture will occur without warning and will be so QUIK!
phil lists one of the verses that prove the rapture happens , John 14, and, also 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of Christ coming from the sky to take UP with Him to HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, first, the dead in the ground , and, second those who are alive on Earth. It will be like those working in a field, one (believer) is taken while other (unbeliever) is left working, wondering what just happened. Scripture gives examples of this, too , Jesus, even, speaking, defining 'the rapture' without saying the word 'rapture' in a parable of the 'working in the field.'
phil lists one of the verses that prove the rapture happens , John 14, and, also 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of Christ coming from the sky to take UP with Him to HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, first, the dead in the ground , and, second those who are alive on Earth. It will be like those working in a field, one (believer) is taken while other (unbeliever) is left working, wondering what just happened. Scripture gives examples of this, too , Jesus, even, speaking, defining 'the rapture' without saying the word 'rapture' in a parable of the 'working in the field.'
as to being saved from the wrath of God which will be poured out on to the earth, we are already saved from God's wrath being his children, if we die during the tribulation why are you worried? can death separate us from the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ? many chrisitans will perish during the time of the tribulation, but shall be saved just as God has saved all his children since beginning. those who teach pre tribulation rapture fear death and hope to be saved from physical death. our flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. God can protect his children from his wrath while pouring it out on others, ask the egyptians, ask those from sodom and gomorrah, ask noah. ask the remnant of israel. I do not know how the events of the tribulation will happen or who the son of perdition will be, I do not know when The Lord will reappear. But what I do know is God will be with us even unto the ages of the ages.
Just a thought.
Christ be with you always.
G
Yes, Christ is returning here, from the sky, 1 Thessalonians 4 tells us, and , He will take those who are His own with Him to His house, 'the Father's house, (John 14:1-3) and this will be PRIOR to the anti-christ, or, Scripture says, 'lawless one,' nateo. coming to rule and reign during the Tribulation time that ends with Christ coming and destroying everything and there being a new Earth for those who will be with Him forevermore, reigning.
I don't fear death, I just believe what Scripture says, vern, and, it says just what I said to nateo in the above post so I won't have to re-explain my pre-tribulation rapture view to you here, bro
I don't fear death, I just believe what Scripture says, vern, and, it says just what I said to nateo in the above post so I won't have to re-explain my pre-tribulation rapture view to you here, bro
N
1 Thess 4 alone, give us when that happens at" Christ return" In what order dose He return ? Well for that continue reading, Paul states in 2 Thess 2, that Christ comes after, Antichrist, not prior , to his coming. Antichrist or deception is not even covered in 1 Thess 4, only giving some details of Christ return, and where are the dead.
The word sky, like we view sky, is not what it says there. It says spiritual body, or breath of life. I can't see atmosphere ?
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Yes, a Pre-Trib Rapture would be a miracle and absolute surprise because it is not taught. There are no passages in the Bible that teach A) an additional return of Christ before His Second Coming, B) That anyone gets transformed in the air and taken to heaven, C) that the timing is BEFORE the Tribulation.
If you consider that Paul wrote both letters to the Thessalonians, which he did, then ask yourself this:
How could Paul be teaching in 1 Thes a Pre-Trib Rapture Return but then in 2 Thes 2 a Second Coming Post Trib Return when he was addressing the same audience? How can the same audience, the Church of Thessalonica, be caught up in a Pre-Trib Rapture AND still be on earth for a Post-Trib Second Coming??? It is the same group!! Paul would have to be addressing Believers in 1 Thes 4 but unbelievers in 2 Thes 2, wouldn't he? Is that what you think?
Let's look at the two passages for a moment.
1 Thes 4-5:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the
day of the Lord
so comes as a thief in the night.
2 Thes 2:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the
day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...
Do you notice how Paul includes himself in each group by using the inclusive word "WE" 3 times in 1 Thes 4, then Paul uses the inclusive word "Our" in 2 Thes 2?? So not only would Paul have to be addressing believers in 1 Thes 4 and unbelievers in 2 Thes 2, he would also have to considering himself an unbeliever to be including himself in the 2 Thes 2 group.
Does anybody really think Paul was uncertain about which group he belonged to, believers or unbelievers who didn't make the cut the first time and thus found themselves in the Tribulation waiting for the Second Coming for their redemption???
Then of course we have context. The subject matter of 1 Thes 4 continues in 1 Thes 5. Notice how Paul identifies the events he described previously as "The Day of the Lord?" Then notice Paul describes the event of 2 Thes as as, "The Day of Christ?"
Does anyone else think the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" are synominous or am I the only one??? It seems pretty obvious Paul was discussing the same event in 1 Thes 4 as he discusses in 2 Thes 2. He includes himself in both groups and calls both events essentially the same thing. So, if 1 Thes 4 is describing the Second Coming and not a pre-trib Rapture, the evidence left for the pre-trib theory becomes very thin - not that it wasn't always thin to begin with.
If you consider that Paul wrote both letters to the Thessalonians, which he did, then ask yourself this:
How could Paul be teaching in 1 Thes a Pre-Trib Rapture Return but then in 2 Thes 2 a Second Coming Post Trib Return when he was addressing the same audience? How can the same audience, the Church of Thessalonica, be caught up in a Pre-Trib Rapture AND still be on earth for a Post-Trib Second Coming??? It is the same group!! Paul would have to be addressing Believers in 1 Thes 4 but unbelievers in 2 Thes 2, wouldn't he? Is that what you think?
Let's look at the two passages for a moment.
1 Thes 4-5:
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the
day of the Lord
so comes as a thief in the night.
2 Thes 2:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the
day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...
Do you notice how Paul includes himself in each group by using the inclusive word "WE" 3 times in 1 Thes 4, then Paul uses the inclusive word "Our" in 2 Thes 2?? So not only would Paul have to be addressing believers in 1 Thes 4 and unbelievers in 2 Thes 2, he would also have to considering himself an unbeliever to be including himself in the 2 Thes 2 group.
Does anybody really think Paul was uncertain about which group he belonged to, believers or unbelievers who didn't make the cut the first time and thus found themselves in the Tribulation waiting for the Second Coming for their redemption???
Then of course we have context. The subject matter of 1 Thes 4 continues in 1 Thes 5. Notice how Paul identifies the events he described previously as "The Day of the Lord?" Then notice Paul describes the event of 2 Thes as as, "The Day of Christ?"
Does anyone else think the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ" are synominous or am I the only one??? It seems pretty obvious Paul was discussing the same event in 1 Thes 4 as he discusses in 2 Thes 2. He includes himself in both groups and calls both events essentially the same thing. So, if 1 Thes 4 is describing the Second Coming and not a pre-trib Rapture, the evidence left for the pre-trib theory becomes very thin - not that it wasn't always thin to begin with.
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GreenNice,
I have to address one thing you wrote because this passage is almost always misunderstood and it is because of the way people talked during Christ's days on earth.
Let's examine John 14:1-3.
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus goes on to explain to Thomas and Philip that HE (Jesus) is also the Father.
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
So let's pick up the context. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers who are saved. In the previous chapter Jesus is telling them that He will soon be killed and that they (Peter) cannot follow Him now but will later. Jesus introduces the concept of many rooms in His Father's house which is really His house too. Then He tells His disciples that He will go to prepare a place in heaven for them.
Now here is the part that throws nearly everyone. Jesus then introduces the concept of His Second Coming and gathering of His followers. He does this by reinforcing the previous point by saying, in other words, "If you believe that I am going to prepare a place for you as a fact, then believe this also as a fact - I will return again and gather you until myself so that where I am, you will be with me also."
Where will Jesus be when He returns? On earth for His Millennial Reign. Once completed then all believers will enter the eternal heaven. Notice Jesus says,
"that where I am, there ye may be also."
He doesn't say that He is still in heaven. He doesn't say He is transforming any living person (which would be required) nor does He say He is taking them to heaven. He doesn't even say He is returning to heaven after He comes back to gather His people. Jesus is only saying that where He is, they will be with Him also.
At first Jesus was referring specifically to His disciples letting them know that He is returning to heaven to prepare a place for them. Jesus knew that 11 of them will be killed for his name and would indeed be joining Him soon in heaven. But Jesus was NOT referring to His disciples when He discussed His Second Coming. We know this because obviously, none of them would be alive by the time He returns. Thus Jesus was referring to living end times believers.
I mentioned that this is the way people talked when they tried to convince people of a difficult concept. They first emphasize a previously introduced concept then say, "If you believe this, then believe that." Paul employed the same technique.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Sorry folks, there is no pre-trib Rapture. Christ returns once to reign. Every teaching on the subject is consistently describing the Second Coming.
I have to address one thing you wrote because this passage is almost always misunderstood and it is because of the way people talked during Christ's days on earth.
Let's examine John 14:1-3.
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus goes on to explain to Thomas and Philip that HE (Jesus) is also the Father.
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
So let's pick up the context. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers who are saved. In the previous chapter Jesus is telling them that He will soon be killed and that they (Peter) cannot follow Him now but will later. Jesus introduces the concept of many rooms in His Father's house which is really His house too. Then He tells His disciples that He will go to prepare a place in heaven for them.
Now here is the part that throws nearly everyone. Jesus then introduces the concept of His Second Coming and gathering of His followers. He does this by reinforcing the previous point by saying, in other words, "If you believe that I am going to prepare a place for you as a fact, then believe this also as a fact - I will return again and gather you until myself so that where I am, you will be with me also."
Where will Jesus be when He returns? On earth for His Millennial Reign. Once completed then all believers will enter the eternal heaven. Notice Jesus says,
"that where I am, there ye may be also."
He doesn't say that He is still in heaven. He doesn't say He is transforming any living person (which would be required) nor does He say He is taking them to heaven. He doesn't even say He is returning to heaven after He comes back to gather His people. Jesus is only saying that where He is, they will be with Him also.
At first Jesus was referring specifically to His disciples letting them know that He is returning to heaven to prepare a place for them. Jesus knew that 11 of them will be killed for his name and would indeed be joining Him soon in heaven. But Jesus was NOT referring to His disciples when He discussed His Second Coming. We know this because obviously, none of them would be alive by the time He returns. Thus Jesus was referring to living end times believers.
I mentioned that this is the way people talked when they tried to convince people of a difficult concept. They first emphasize a previously introduced concept then say, "If you believe this, then believe that." Paul employed the same technique.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Sorry folks, there is no pre-trib Rapture. Christ returns once to reign. Every teaching on the subject is consistently describing the Second Coming.
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This is the same event, same concept.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...
Caught up together with them and gathering together to Him are the same. Same audience. Paul includes himself in both passages. Day of the Lord verses Day of Christ. In both passages the gathering or catching up is to meet the Lord.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...
Caught up together with them and gathering together to Him are the same. Same audience. Paul includes himself in both passages. Day of the Lord verses Day of Christ. In both passages the gathering or catching up is to meet the Lord.
I perceive that a lot of misunderstanding in discussions including the topic / idea of 'rapture' - in the forums AND in the chat rooms - is due to the variation in understanding of what the term means to different individuals...
So - I thought I would put the question to you:
"What do you consider the d e f i n i t i o n of the word 'rapture' to be?"
Please wait for the poll!
So - I thought I would put the question to you:
"What do you consider the d e f i n i t i o n of the word 'rapture' to be?"
Please wait for the poll!
B
Probably one of the top 3 names in the history modern Christianity believe in the pre-trib rapture {Billy Graham}
Please click on the link below:
What is the rapture? | Answers | BGEA
Please click on the link below:
What is the rapture? | Answers | BGEA
To me "rapture" means that someone is creating (or has fallen for) the idea that Jesus upon descending from heaven as per 1 Thess. 4:16-17 goes back to heaven (for several years) and descends again---a third time! To me this is absurd, unscriptural, and serves no purpose other than to create the idea that someone gets a second chance to accept Jesus between the event in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 and when He descends again---the said-to-be---third time! To me this means that someone is creating (or has fallen for) the idea of a second chance for a nation of Revelation 2:9; 3:9 type non-Christians calling themselves---"Israel." Don' believe it.
Yes, Christ is returning here, from the sky, 1 Thessalonians 4 tells us, and , He will take those who are His own with Him to His house, 'the Father's house, (John 14:1-3) and this will be PRIOR to the anti-christ, or, Scripture says, 'lawless one,' nateo. coming to rule and reign during the Tribulation time that ends with Christ coming and destroying everything and there being a new Earth for those who will be with Him forevermore, reigning.
I don't fear death, I just believe what Scripture says, vern, and, it says just what I said to nateo in the above post so I won't have to re-explain my pre-tribulation rapture view to you here, bro
I don't fear death, I just believe what Scripture says, vern, and, it says just what I said to nateo in the above post so I won't have to re-explain my pre-tribulation rapture view to you here, bro
Yes, that is the sad truth. But I am comforted in knowing that none of the religious leaders of Christ's day had a clue about doctrine either and none recognized the Savior when He was standing right in front of them. I'm not comparing Billy Graham to the Pharisees and Sadducees of Christ's Day as he is a tremendous man of God. But Billy Graham has it wrong about the Rapture as does Joseph Prince and just about every other prominent leader of our day.