What does the word 'rapture' mean to you?

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What do you consider the *****definition***** of the word 'rapture' to be?

  • the "catching up" of the saints; "every eye shall see it"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; "every eye shall see it"; occurs 'mid-trib'

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs "in secret"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'mid-trib'

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'post-trib'

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs before 'second-coming'; "every eye shall see it"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs before 'second-coming'; "every eye shall see it"; occurs 'mi

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs before 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs before 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'pre-trib

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs before 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'mid-trib

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs before 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'post-tri

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs at/after 'second-coming'; "every eye shall see it"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs at/after 'second-coming'; "every eye shall see it"; occurs '

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs at/after 'second-coming'; "every eye shall see it"; occurs '

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs at/after 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs at/after 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'pre-tr

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the "catching up" of the saints; occurs at/after 'second-coming'; occurs "in secret"; occurs 'mid-tr

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    30

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
I thought you noticed some things PlainWord
i didn't notice before; that might be helpful when trying to explain some of these things Christians and non Christians alike.
Thanks. Besides the fact that both 1 Thes 4-5 and 2 Thes 2 both define the Lord's return as the "Day of the Lord/Christ" the context is clear that Paul was only referring to the Second Coming and not any earlier Rapture return. We don't even need to look at 2 Thes 2 to understand that 1 Thes 4 was describing the Second Coming and thus - NO RAPTURE exists:

1) Paul is talking to the "Brethren" of Thessalonica (4:13).
2) Paul clearly includes himself in the group of Believers by his use of the word, "WE" (vs. 14, 15 & 17).
3) Thus Paul totally expects to be part of those "caught up" if he is still alive when the Lord returns (vs. 17)
4) Paul is still talking to the "Brethren" of Thessalonica (5:1) so same audience
5) Paul describes the Day of the Lord as coming as a "Thief in the Night" (5:2)
6) Paul never transitions from a Rapture lesson to the Second Coming lesson.

Now check this out:

1 Thes 5:

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day (DAY OF THE LORD) should overtake you as a thief.

5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

Again, Paul is still referring to the Brethren in verses 4-5. Brethren are saved believers, right? Therefore if there was a Pre-Trib Rapture then the Brethren (or saved believers) would be gone and not around to witness the Day of the Lord. Paul is still including himself in this group (see verse 5). Paul is not of the night nor darkness. Therefore the Day of the Lord will not sneak up on Paul nor the Brethren of Thessalonica. Again, if Paul was discussing a Rapture back in 1 Thes 4:13-17 he can't possibly be discussing the Second Coming or Day of the Lord in 1 Thes 5:2 because if Paul was then that would mean neither he, nor the Brethren of Thessalonica would be saved on the Day of the Rapture because Paul still has them on earth for the Second Coming.

Now 2 Thes 2 becomes clear. If we start reading in 2 Thes 1:6 through the second Chapter we only see the Second Coming being discussed and the timing is given clearly as "AFTER THE MAN OF SIN, SON OF PERDITION" is revealed. Paul is still counting himself in the group, who if alive, is part of those being gathered.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Day of the Lord) will not come unless...

For any believer to be deceived, they still have to be on earth and not raptured away. Paul is still in this group, see verse 1, "Our gathering." Now Paul gives a clear and precise warning not to be deceived about the timing of the Lord's return. Why would Paul need to warn believers about the Second Coming if they were to be Raptured? He can't be talking about future converts because he already is calling them brethren and counting himself in their group. Thus they have to be saved and thus should be gone if a Pre-Trib Rapture really existed.

Paul goes on to say in verse 5:

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

So Paul already told the Thessalonians these things. Keep in mind, Paul already comforted them in verse 2 that they didn't miss the Lord's coming and that the Day of Christ aka the Day of the Lord had not come and will not come until the falling away and Man of Sin is revealed. So again, Paul already told them these things when he was with them. He gave them more detail in his first letter to them but nowhere does Paul place the Lord's return before the Tribulation, not in either letter or any letter. Paul never discusses any living believer being transformed AND taken to heaven.

The Rapture is an invention and it isn't hard to see who is behind it trying (very successfully I might add) to deceive the church.
 
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konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
This could very well mean that we are not of the night because we won't be surprised by the day of the Lord. We will be raptured. You can't have the meaning of the Day of the Lord include the Rapture that was previously spoken about and then still expect that Paul references a 2nd Coming that is after the Day of the Lord. Clearly Paul puts the events in this order, Rapture, Day of the Lord (including Son of Perdition), 2nd Coming.

Paul's use of the word "we" is authorial, inclusive and personal. It doesn't mean that Paul expected to be a part of all the events his use of the word "we" talks about. Paul could be inclusive with believers who were alive at the writing of the letter, believers who will be alive when the Rapture occurs, still more believers that will endure the day of the Lord, and believers who will experience the 2nd Coming of Christ. The fact that Paul uses the term "we" for all these events does not mean that they all reference the same event, nor that Paul expected to be a part of each one of these events. Clearly not.

Paul references 1 Thess 4 as a new teaching 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, we will be Raptured. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

He then afterwards moves to the Day of the Lord 1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

Why would they have no need for anything to be written to them? Is it because they will be Raptured?

He then makes it crystal clear in 2 Thess. 2 that the Day of the Lord will precede the 2nd coming. Paul can't have had the order wrong in 1 Thess 4 where he has Rapture then Day of the Lord. Now he has Day of the Lord, 2nd Coming, but the Day of the Lord won't come til the Restrainer is removed, very possibly and easily a reference to the Holy Spirit filled believers being Raptured.

Paul never discusses any living believer being transformed AND taken to heaven.
What Bible are you reading? even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. ...and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

How are the dead in Christ risen when Christ brings them? They receive resurrection bodies first, then we do and meet Jesus in the air and we will always be with the Lord. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." We go to the place prepared for us, heaven, the Father's house.

I'll never tire of speaking the truth of God's word.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
"I suppose I should throw this in now -- before it all gets out of hand..."

I set this poll up this way on purpose - to make a point. I voted for the first item on the list:

the "catching up" of the saints

And, this is why...

I firmly believe that "every eye shall see it" and that it will occur 'post-trib' (or, 'pre-wrath') and at/after 'second-coming'; however -- I do not believe that these things should be part of the d e f i n i t i o n of the word 'rapture'. All of these things are "miscellaneous extraneous details" that have absolutely nothing [directly] to do with what the 'rapture' IS. They are only indirectly related:

[direct] definition of 'rapture' -> the "catching up" of the saints

who: the saints
what: "catching up"

That's it. That's all. Nothing else is included. ( other than -- where: in the clouds / in the air -- but, that is understood as part of the idea of "catching up" - as it is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 )

The definition of 'rapture' does not "speak to" anything else.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ~ 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The word 'rapture' is based on the phrase in this color in the verse above.

It defines 'who' and 'what' ( which includes 'where' ) -- and nothing else.

Everything else is just [indirect] associated / related details about the rapture:

when: 'pre-trib' / 'mid-trib' / 'post-trib' ; before / at / after 'second-coming'
manner: "every eye shall see it" / "in secret"

What the 'rapture' IS -- is only 'who' and 'what'...

Just imagine how much misunderstanding could be avoided if people would just not ADD to the "base" definition of 'rapture' ( "catching up" ) as it is described in scripture...
Just imagine how much misunderstanding could be avoided if people would just not ADD to the "base" definition of 'rapture' ( "catching up" ) as it is described in scripture...


THE WHOLE POINT of this thread --- is to illustrate just how vitally important it really is for people to be in agreement about the definition and use of the word 'rapture' -- so that everyone is "on the same page" -- before any truly worthwhile discussion may be had on the subject...
I have noticed that - not in this thread, nor in any of the other 'rapture' threads - has anyone ( other than me ) so much as lifted a finger to even attempt to encourage the membership to come to any agreement whatsoever about the definition and use of the word 'rapture'...

"Don't count on having any truly worthwhile discussions on the subject..."


So then...

Is my point not made exceedingly clear?

Unless and until a commonly-agreed definition for 'rapture' can be had --- any discussion involving even the concept of 'rapture' will be difficult at best to try to have intellectually...
I sincerely believe that I could feel very comfortable betting my life that the membership is incapable of coming to any agreement whatsoever about the definition and use of the word 'rapture'.

Would anyone like to prove me wrong?

I don't think you can do it. There is just too much PRIDE... ( What reactions will there be to this post? )

I dare you to prove me wrong.

I dare you to continue this thread - with one accord - using the brains and hearts that God gave you - reason with each other - "decently and in order" ( 1 Corinthians 14:40 ) - to determine if there is not an agreeable definition for the word 'rapture' that could be utilized in any related discussion involving even the concept of 'rapture' -- so that 99% of our discussions will not be totally lost on what the rapture is or is not.

It does not matter whether you believe it exists or not. That is not the issue.

What do we mean when we say 'rapture'? That is the issue.

Are you willing to give up so easily? ( I know what you are thinking. ;) )

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
What if you actually accomplish it? What will that say about the fellowship of the membership of CC?

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
It can be done. Are you willing?

:)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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even though the word itself is not found....it means I am outta this hole (world) hahahha Post Tribulation/pre-wrath and every eye shall see Jesus come!
 
Dec 29, 2013
599
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even though the word itself is not found....it means I am outta this hole (world) hahahha Post Tribulation/pre-wrath and every eye shall see Jesus come!
dcontroversal, since you're the last post on this page will have to pick on you again. Below is a verse you would be familiar with. As you read, examine it for the idea that Jesus, upon descending from heaven---goes back to the same.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall rise together with them to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Where, in the context of these verses, does it describe a Jesus who descends from heaven, but goes back to the same when Christians rise to "meet" (greet) him? Please show me where this is stated in these verses. As you do this keep in mind that the go-back-to heaven interpretation requires a Jesus who must descend again---a third time!
 

konroh

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2013
615
21
18
Such a simple answer. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven and so shall we ever be with the Lord

He came from heaven, we'll be with Him forever. Where did He come from to get us? Heaven. Where will we be with Him? Heaven. Where are we going? Heaven

Wow, toss another softball question up there.


 
G

GaryA

Guest
Let's start with what the rapture [ itself ] actually is - as an 'event', and as a 'process'.

Is it not generally accepted that the 'rapture' concept is based on the descriptions of the following verses? Are there any other verses, not listed below, that are actually directly related to the rapture ( as an 'event' or 'process' ) ?


1 Corinthians 15:

[SUP]51[/SUP] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52[/SUP] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:

[SUP]13[/SUP] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14[/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15[/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16[/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17[/SUP] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18[/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,



Phrases in this color are intrinsic to what the rapture [ itself ] actually is, as an 'event'; this color being even more specific to what the rapture [ itself ] actually is, as a 'process'.

Phrases in this color are other details about when the rapture occurs, but not part of the definition of what the rapture [ itself ] actually is.

Phrases in this color are other details about the rapture ( as an 'event' ), but not part of the definition of what the rapture [ itself ] actually is.


Is it agreeable that those phrases in red are the only phrases that contribute directly to the definition of what the rapture [ itself ] actually is...???

Is it agreeable that the other phrases, while being important and significant - are not part of the definition of what the rapture [ itself ] actually is...???

( As, for the moment, we are considering only the definition of what the rapture [ itself ] actually is. )


One of the things I am trying to accomplish with this post is to show the difference between the resurrection and the rapture.

The resurrection involves the raising of the dead in Christ, and "the change" into having a "glorified body"; the rapture is the "catching up" of the saints to meet the Lord in the air.

The resurrection occurs first - and then, is immediately followed by the rapture.

The phrase 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye' is related to the resurrection, not the rapture. It is "the change" that occurs 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye', not the "catching up" of the saints to meet the Lord in the air.


:)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
dcontroversal, since you're the last post on this page will have to pick on you again. Below is a verse you would be familiar with. As you read, examine it for the idea that Jesus, upon descending from heaven---goes back to the same.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall rise together with them to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Where, in the context of these verses, does it describe a Jesus who descends from heaven, but goes back to the same when Christians rise to "meet" (greet) him? Please show me where this is stated in these verses. As you do this keep in mind that the go-back-to heaven interpretation requires a Jesus who must descend again---a third time!
There is only one coming left...

WAS--->PAST TENSE
IS----->PRESENT TENSE
and IS TO COME--->FUTURE TENSE

all things concerning the coming (parousia--->BODY PRESENCE) of Jesus must jive with the above. It is quite simple...

EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM COME WITH CLOUDS AND GREAT GLORY...
ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD WILL ATTEMPT TO HIDE FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITS UPON THE THRONE..

1. The saints (both in the ground and above the ground with be gathered by the angels to meet the Lord in the Air
2. As Christ rewards the saints (Judgment seat of Christ) in the AIR
3. As God, Jesus pours out his WRATH on the UNBELIEVING world that has been gathered under the banner of the beast and the false prophet.

Not hard to understand in context and as far as (picking on me) I am not easily offended, :)
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. (Perhaps this graphic looks familiar e)--time--(e ?) But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time. He can reach out and touch something in present time. Then reach out and touch something in past time. Then reach out and touch something in time's future. This picture shows how God is not constrained by time as we are.

So imagine, that the day you are born God enters the world to walk beside you until you die. And at that time He takes you home back to the 'hub'. Having spent your whole life with you, God then enters the world when, say, your best friend is born, spends their entire life with them, then He brings them home. Then again, maybe reaching out to the day King David was born, spending his entire life with him, until He brings him home. God is not constrained by time, and that’s how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, all at the same time.

Now, here on the rim we see people dying in a linear order. And so that's the way we see them being taken up, as in the resurrection. The thing is, that in eternity, in the hub, we all arrive at the same time. Suddenly there was the multitude... that's us, before the Throne of God, all at the same time. Because being caught up, we are no longer constrained by time.

Resurrection implies dead and buried; there will be some who have not tasted that when Christ returns, and so their being caught up alive is the substitute. But Rapture is a process of time. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched-moment is your rapture, baby. As Luke 12:16-21 puts it, our souls may be demanded of us tonight.

Rapture is indeed a process, not a point in time.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
There is only one coming left...

WAS--->PAST TENSE
IS----->PRESENT TENSE
and IS TO COME--->FUTURE TENSE

all things concerning the coming (parousia--->BODY PRESENCE) of Jesus must jive with the above. It is quite simple...

EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM COME WITH CLOUDS AND GREAT GLORY...
ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD WILL ATTEMPT TO HIDE FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITS UPON THE THRONE..

1. The saints (both in the ground and above the ground with be gathered by the angels to meet the Lord in the Air
2. As Christ rewards the saints (Judgment seat of Christ) in the AIR
3. As God, Jesus pours out his WRATH on the UNBELIEVING world that has been gathered under the banner of the beast and the false prophet.
4. Jesus returns with us to this world to rule for 1,000 years
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. (Perhaps this graphic looks familiar e)--time--(e ?) But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time. He can reach out and touch something in present time. Then reach out and touch something in past time. Then reach out and touch something in time's future. This picture shows how God is not constrained by time as we are.

So imagine, that the day you are born God enters the world to walk beside you until you die. And at that time He takes you home back to the 'hub'. Having spent your whole life with you, God then enters the world when, say, your best friend is born, spends their entire life with them, then He brings them home. Then again, maybe reaching out to the day King David was born, spending his entire life with him, until He brings him home. God is not constrained by time, and that’s how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, all at the same time.

Now, here on the rim we see people dying in a linear order. And so that's the way we see them being taken up, as in the resurrection. The thing is, that in eternity, in the hub, we all arrive at the same time. Suddenly there was the multitude... that's us, before the Throne of God, all at the same time. Because being caught up, we are no longer constrained by time.

Resurrection implies dead and buried; there will be some who have not tasted that when Christ returns, and so their being caught up alive is the substitute. But Rapture is a process of time. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched-moment is your rapture, baby. As Luke 12:16-21 puts it, our souls may be demanded of us tonight.

Rapture is indeed a process, not a point in time.
While interesting to read, I do not believe that your illustration is the best representation of the true nature of reality.

I do believe that you have most definitely misunderstood the "sense and tense" of my use of the word 'process'...

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
even though the word itself is not found....it means I am outta this hole (world) hahahha Post Tribulation/pre-wrath and every eye shall see Jesus come!
There is only one coming left...

WAS--->PAST TENSE
IS----->PRESENT TENSE
and IS TO COME--->FUTURE TENSE

all things concerning the coming (parousia--->BODY PRESENCE) of Jesus must jive with the above. It is quite simple...

EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM COME WITH CLOUDS AND GREAT GLORY...
ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD WILL ATTEMPT TO HIDE FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITS UPON THE THRONE..

1. The saints (both in the ground and above the ground with be gathered by the angels to meet the Lord in the Air
2. As Christ rewards the saints (Judgment seat of Christ) in the AIR
3. As God, Jesus pours out his WRATH on the UNBELIEVING world that has been gathered under the banner of the beast and the false prophet.

Not hard to understand in context and as far as (picking on me) I am not easily offended, :)
While I can agree with most of what you have written here ( for example, I believe in 'Post Tribulation/pre-wrath' and 'every eye shall see Jesus come' ), none of it has anything directly to do with what the rapture actually is...

With the exception of:

1. The saints (both in the ground and above the ground with be gathered by the angels to meet the Lord in the Air
- which I would agree does in fact represent the rapture.

I do not believe the Bible supports this idea ( as being at the time of the rapture, or directly thereafter ):

2. As Christ rewards the saints (Judgment seat of Christ) in the AIR
I am trying to get folks to focus on a definition for what the rapture [ itself ] actually is...

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
I am trying to get folks to focus on a definition for what the rapture [ itself ] actually is...
--- without adding things to the definition that are not intrinsic to the definition...

:)
 
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G

GaryA

Guest
dcontroversal, since you're the last post on this page will have to pick on you again. Below is a verse you would be familiar with. As you read, examine it for the idea that Jesus, upon descending from heaven---goes back to the same.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall rise together with them to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Where, in the context of these verses, does it describe a Jesus who descends from heaven, but goes back to the same when Christians rise to "meet" (greet) him? Please show me where this is stated in these verses. As you do this keep in mind that the go-back-to heaven interpretation requires a Jesus who must descend again---a third time!
Such a simple answer. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven and so shall we ever be with the Lord

He came from heaven, we'll be with Him forever. Where did He come from to get us? Heaven. Where will we be with Him? Heaven. Where are we going? Heaven

Wow, toss another softball question up there.


4. Jesus returns with us to this world to rule for 1,000 years
Let's discuss what words and phrases - in what verses of scripture - define the concept of 'rapture' ( specifically ) - what it is and what it is not...

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Let's start with what the rapture [ itself ] actually is - as an 'event', and as a 'process'.
By 'event', I mean "a singular historic occurance" - a single event within an ordered series of events.

By 'process', I mean "the carrying out of the operation of an occurance" - the specific nature of what is happening as the occurance unfolds.

:)
 
Dec 29, 2013
599
6
0
There is only one coming left...

WAS--->PAST TENSE
IS----->PRESENT TENSE
and IS TO COME--->FUTURE TENSE

all things concerning the coming (parousia--->BODY PRESENCE) of Jesus must jive with the above. It is quite simple...

EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM COME WITH CLOUDS AND GREAT GLORY...
ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD WILL ATTEMPT TO HIDE FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITS UPON THE THRONE..

1. The saints (both in the ground and above the ground with be gathered by the angels to meet the Lord in the Air
2. As Christ rewards the saints (Judgment seat of Christ) in the AIR
3. As God, Jesus pours out his WRATH on the UNBELIEVING world that has been gathered under the banner of the beast and the false prophet.

Not hard to understand in context and as far as (picking on me) I am not easily offended, :)

I was asking for evidence, of a Jesus who goes back to heaven. You did not show where this is in the context. Please try again.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
even though the word itself is not found....it means I am outta this hole (world) hahahha Post Tribulation/pre-wrath and every eye shall see Jesus come!
dcontroversal, since you're the last post on this page will have to pick on you again. Below is a verse you would be familiar with. As you read, examine it for the idea that Jesus, upon descending from heaven---goes back to the same.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall rise together with them to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Where, in the context of these verses, does it describe a Jesus who descends from heaven, but goes back to the same when Christians rise to "meet" (greet) him? Please show me where this is stated in these verses. As you do this keep in mind that the go-back-to heaven interpretation requires a Jesus who must descend again---a third time!
I was asking for evidence, of a Jesus who goes back to heaven. You did not show where this is in the context. Please try again.
I want to see the evidence that dcontroversal's statement - "I am outta this hole (world)" - specifically implies - "going with Jesus back to heaven"...

Could he have possibly simply meant "this life is over and I don't have to deal with it anymore"...???

Are you assuming something based on a post dcontroversal made in another thread?

You seem to be "driving home" a perfectly good point, but - "out of the blue"...

:confused:

:)
 
Dec 29, 2013
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Let's discuss what words and phrases - in what verses of scripture - define the concept of 'rapture' ( specifically ) - what it is and what it is not...

:)
My problem is with people who dogmatically insist that "caught up" (1 Thess. 4:17) means that Jesus then goes back to heaven (taking the "caught up" with him. It does not say this. It is not there.

Evangelicals have been duped, they have been duped with the idea of a Jesus who descends, but then gives everyone a second chance by going back to heaven. This interpretation is promoted for the benefit of the dead in Phariseeism and those alive in the same, those who, because they will not be "caught up" in this event cannot "inherit the kingdom" with Jesus and are not therefore the Israel of God. This is what motivates those who promote the futurist interpretation. They need it and its built in second chance for their non-Christian "Israel." There is no second chance, for today's Pharisees or anyone else. When Jesus descends from heaven as per 1 Thess. 4:16-17 he's here to stay. Hallelujah, come quickly Lord Jesus!