what happens next millenium or new earth?

[delirious]

does new testament ever mention someone living past the second coming in the flesh? i know zechariah does and isaiah 66. but about new testament?

Since the second coming was in 70 A.D. lots of people lived past it and people have been born after it obviously as well. 2 Thess 1: 7-10 that you already mentioned says that. Those Thessalonians experienced relief when Jerusalem and the apostate Jews were destroyed.

The new heavens and earth (Christ's kingdom and the church) are mentioned in Isaiah 65 & 66 as well as Rev 21 & 22. People are born and die in the new heavens and earth (Isaiah 65:20). The unrighteous are outside the New Jerusalem in Rev 22: 14-15. They still exist. What is the New Jerusalem? It's described in Rev 21. It is the church. It is not a literal city. The first verse of Revelation tells you this is symbolic language.

For 2,000 years Christians have been looking for a physical kingdom. Jesus said it does not come with observation (Luke 17: 20-21). It is within you.

John 14: 21-23, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him. Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

That is the new heavens and earth. A people that are a joy to God (Isaiah 65: 18). Christ and His bride. Ruling and reigning with Him forever in heaven. Isaiah 65 and Rev 21 describe the church. Not a physical place.

 

[delirious]

does new testament ever mention someone living past the second coming in the flesh? i know zechariah does and isaiah 66. but about new testament?

Indulge me for a moment please. Forget everything you have ever learned from pastors and Bible teachers. Now go read these passages:

Matt 16: 27-28
Mark 8: 38 - 9: 1
Luke 9: 26-27
The Olivet Discourse in Matt 24-25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Matt 10: 17-23

Remember with those 7 passages above Jesus says in ALL of them it will happen to His generation. Then add these passages:

Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9: 24-27. Notice how the prophecy ends? It ends with the destruction of Daniel's people, the Jews, and Jerusalem. Daniel 12: 1-7 tell us the resurrection happens at this time.

Compare Matt 24: 21 with Daniel 12: 1. Jesus is quoting Daniel in the Olivet Discourse.
Compare Matt 24: 30-31 with Daniel 12: 2. Jesus is quoting Daniel in the Olivet Discourse.
Matt 24: 34 says it will ALL happen in Jesus' generation.
Daniel 12: 7 says the entire 70 weeks will be fulfilled when the power of the holy people (the Jews) is completely shattered. When did that happen? 70 A.D. at the fall of Jerusalem.

Revelation also says 7 times at the beginning and end of the book that the book would be fulfilled SHORTLY. Rev 1:1,3 and Rev 22: 6,7,10,12 and 20.

This is the plain teaching of Scripture. Sadly, my fellow Christians have been manipulating it for 2,000 years.

Please read those Scriptures with an open heart and forget everything you have been told. What do they say?

 

[Melach]

delirious dear friend. i know certain verses on the surface say all will be fulfilled in Jesus' generation but friend it was not fulfilled. this is why we must look for another interpretation

in my heart i cant go with your un-climactic apocalypse. friend it is certain all has not been fulfilled, for death and tears are still among us.

Jesus has showed me He is coming back, not when, not how, but Jesus is coming again to fix this troubl we are in. im just a creature trying to put the puzzle together.

 

[Melach]

what am looking for now is why is resurrection different from second coming? i see nothing in 1 thess 4:15-17 suggest it. it says us who remain to coming of the Lord....notice word coming. dead in Christ rise first, why isnt this revelation 20:4? is there any reason?

i have never really questioned my endtimes program on closer inspection premillennialism must be so because how else can there be fulfillment of so many prophecies?

 

[wolfwint]

The Thessalonians did receive relief in 70 A.D. just like the letter says otherwise it was a false promise. The resurrection also took place you just don't understand it.



The first verse of Revelation tells you the book is encoded in signs and symbols but you ignore that because it does not fit your paradigm and read it literally.



Jesus' resurrection was a sign. He says so Himself. He appears several different times after the resurrection in different forms to the believers. Physical bodies don't change forms. Nowhere does it say Christians are raised in the same body. Reread 1 Corinthians 15.



It's what the Scripture says. You just don't like it. The new heavens and earth is not a physically remade universe. Plenty of Scripture refutes that idea.



The irony of this statement is rich.



He said that would happen in His generation. You also deny what the Scripture says on that.



He did come in 70 A.D. He came through the Roman armies. Just like He said in many places; Matt 22: 1-14 being one example. Josephus records the chariots beings seen in the sky. Suetonius, the Roman historian, records the same thing. The resurrection happened in the spiritual realm. That's why it's not recorded.



False statement which doesn't understand the nature of the kingdom.



I do. You don't. I have had many discussions with you and they are always a waste of time. I truly hope they bless somebody, somehow, that might read them. That's the only reason I respond to you.

7 passages from Jesus' own lips say that His second coming was in His generation. Matt 16: 27-28, Mark 8: 38-9:1, Luke 9: 26-27, Matt 24: 34, Mark 13: 30, Luke 21: 32 and Matt 10: 23. I have already attempted to discuss these with you and you have NEVER answered them. Just came up with fanciful interpretations that the Scripture refutes.



Once again, the irony is rich in your statement. When you die you and meet the Lord you will find out that all your dispensationalism was wood, hay and stubble. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Like it is with many dispensationalists. Nevertheless, I harbor no ill will towards you, or any of them, and wish you well in your studies. God bless.

By the way, I don't claim to have perfect understanding of the Bible. I have made doctrinal mistakes more than once or twice in my journey following the Lord. They are very humbling. There are many things in the Bible I scratch my head over everyday and will until the day I die. But on this particular topic I have the truth. I accept what the Scripture says. I wish other Christians would.

It is interesting. If you dont believe in a new createt Heaven and earth.
How you will explain that around 75% of our blue planet will disappear? There will be no sea on the new earth.
Ore you mean the word of God is a lie?

What distinct you from a dispensationslists?

 

[Melach]

john 6:40 says resurrection/rapture is at the last day. not before it, brethren how does this work with pre-trib rapture? i ask in love. lets keep this constructive friends

 

[delirious]

delirious dear friend. i know certain verses on the surface say all will be fulfilled in Jesus' generation but friend it was not fulfilled. this is why we must look for another interpretation

This is why non-christians when they debate Christians always go to the Scriptures I just listed in post #22. The non-christian actually accepts what the Scriptures says. He doesn't try to manipulate it. Sadly my brothers and sisters won't do this when debating them. They will twist the Word of God because it doesn't fit what they have been taught. I"m not saying my brothers and sisters do it maliciously they are just trying to explain it somehow. It doesn't work.

The Christian will tell the non-christian that "last days" and "near" and "shortly" and "quickly" and "this generation" and "some of you not dying before I come back" don't really mean what they say. The intelligent non-christian will never accept this argument nor should they. It is a completely biased interpretation by the Christian.

We don't look for alternate interpretations. We accept what God has told us. We let Scripture interpret Scripture. If we don't understand it then we need to seek to understand what is meant.

The reason you are not understanding it is because you have the same completely wrong view of the nature of the kingdom and resurrection that most of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ have had for 2,000 years. You are looking for something physical and visible. A recreated heavens and earth. This language is used in the Bible of rulers/prinicipalities/powers and people.

The new heavens and earth is Christ and His church. This is clear if you read the first 18 verses of Isaiah 65 carefully and then compare that with Rev 21. They are both describing the people of God. Not a physical place.

I'll be honest with you. I despair when talking about this with other Christians. They rarely understand. The teaching of a future, physical second coming of Christ is so ubiquitous in the church that it has blinded the church for 2,000 years.

The only hope a person has is to forget the stuff they have been taught and read the Scripture and accept what it says. Don't try to explain it away. Seek to understand what God is trying to tell you.

 

[delirious]

john 6:40 says resurrection/rapture is at the last day. not before it, brethren how does this work with pre-trib rapture? i ask in love. lets keep this constructive friends

There is no "last day" of the Christian age. It is eternal. Christ's kingdom has no end. There was a "last day" of old covenant Israel. That's the last day that you read about in the New Testament. It happened at the fall of Jerusalem. That's why Daniel is told he will stand at the "end of the days" in Daniel 12.

There is no pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pan-trib, pre-wrath, or any other future second coming of Jesus. The second coming already happened. He already kept His promises and came back just like the Scriptures say that I linked in post #22.

 

[delirious]

It is interesting. If you dont believe in a new createt Heaven and earth.
How you will explain that around 75% of our blue planet will disappear? There will be no sea on the new earth.
Ore you mean the word of God is a lie?

I never said I don't believe in a new heavens and earth. I believe in it. I correctly understand what it is. It is Christ and His church. That's what you read in Rev 21 & 22.

Reading Revelation literally, when the first verse of the book tells you not to, is a big mistake by anyone.

Read Isaiah 65: 1-18. Read the rest of 65 and 66 too if you want. Compare it with Revelation 21. Both books say the same thing in these verses. God is putting away rebellious Israel and creating a new kingdom of people who are a joy to Him. God tells you specifically in Isaiah 65: 17-18 that the new heavens and earth is a new people. These people we find out in Rev 21 are Christians filled with God's Spirit through Christ's redemptive work. They are portrayed in glory in that chapter.

 

[Melach]

There is no "last day" of the Christian age. It is eternal. Christ's kingdom has no end. There was a "last day" of old covenant Israel. That's the last day that you read about in the New Testament. It happened at the fall of Jerusalem. That's why Daniel is told he will stand at the "end of the days" in Daniel 12.

There is no pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pan-trib, pre-wrath, or any other future second coming of Jesus. The second coming already happened. He already kept His promises and came back just like the Scriptures say that I linked in post #22.

are you saying then everything will continue like this forever? suffering, pain, death? my heart is grieved with such an eschatology

 

[Guojing]

Indulge me for a moment please. Forget everything you have ever learned from pastors and Bible teachers. Now go read these passages:

Matt 16: 27-28
Mark 8: 38 - 9: 1
Luke 9: 26-27
The Olivet Discourse in Matt 24-25, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Matt 10: 17-23

Remember with those 7 passages above Jesus says in ALL of them it will happen to His generation.

Please read those Scriptures with an open heart and forget everything you have been told. What do they say?

Do you believe that, even though Jesus is 100% God, there are certain things that the Father know but Jesus don't, for example the timing of his return?

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

 

[delirious]

are you saying then everything will continue like this forever? suffering, pain, death? my heart is grieved with such an eschatology

Here are some verses that say the sun, the moon and the earth endure forever:

Psalm 72: 5,7,17 Jer 31: 35-36
Psalm 39: 34-37 Jer 33: 19-22
Psalm 104: 5
Psalm 78: 69
Ecc 1: 4

There are many more. Notice that these verses say that if the sun moon or earth cease to be then: Christ's kingdom will end, people will no longer fear God, the righteous will no longer flourish, peace will disappear, that God will break His everlasting covenant.

We know from the Scriptures that people will always fear God, that Christ's kingdom will last forever, that the righteous will flourish, that the increase of peace and of Christ's government there shall be no end (Isaiah 9: 6-7), and His covenant can't be broken because He is always faithful.

Therefore, we know that the earth, sun and moon will be around forever. The passages that talk about them being destroyed are non-literal and that is how they are always used by the Old Testament prophets as well as Jesus in Matthew 24: 29 and Peter in 2 Peter 3: 10-13. Both Jesus and Peter were referring to the destruction of old covenant Israel.

Isaiah 13: 9-10 (destruction of Babylon), Isaiah 34: 4-5 (destruction of Edom), Ezekiel 32: 7-9 (destruction of Egypt). These are all examples of "de-creation" language in the Bible referring to the "end of the universe" for those people. They are being destroyed not the universe.

 

[delirious]

Do you believe that, even though Jesus is 100% God, there are certain things that the Father know but Jesus don't, for example the timing of his return? Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus said that the coming of the Son of man would be just like the days of Noah. Noah knew that a flood was coming in his generation and started building the ark like God commanded him. He didn't know when the flood would come until 7 days before the flood was about to happen when God told him to take all the animals and enter the ark.

It was the same with Jesus. He knew His second coming was in His generation. That's why He said some of them standing there would not taste death until His second coming (Matt 16: 27-28). He did not know the day or the hour during His first coming like you quoted. But then we have this right before he returns:

Rev 1: 1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must SHORTLY take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John." Revelation was written about 65 A.D. right before the fall of Jerusalem.

Jesus found out right before His return when God told Him to go get His bride. It says specifically that God gave Him the revelation. That means Jesus did not have it before.

If you know anything about Jewish wedding customs the father tells the son when everything is ready and he can go get his bride. The son has to prepare everything first (John 14: 1-3) and when the father has given his approval he tells the son he can go get his bride.

This is the marriage supper of the Lamb in Rev 19. It is at the fall of Jerusalem (Rev 17 & 18, Mystery Babylon). When the resurrection takes place (Rev 20) and the new heavens and earth begin (Rev 21 & 22, Christ and His bride, the church). This is why Jesus uses the parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins in Matt 25: 1-13. It is the marriage supper of the Lamb which happens at the fall of Jerusalem (Matt 24). Context. At the end of Matt 25: 31-46 you have the sheep and goats judgment. The resurrection and judgment which happens in the context of Matt 24 which is the fall of Jerusalem which Jesus said ALL would happen in His generation (Matt 24: 34).

 

[Guojing]

Jesus found out right before His return when God told Him to go get His bride. It says specifically that God gave Him the revelation. That means Jesus did not have it before.

Okay glad we have established that point that the Father knows more than Jesus about certain timetabled events.

Let me now quote scripture written by our Apostle Paul

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Would it be possible for you to accept that, the postponement of Jesus's return, due to the rejection by the Jews, was actually unknown to Jesus while he was preaching during the 4 Gospels.

I am saying that the dispensation of Grace, which lasted all these 2000 years, was actually not known to anyone in the 4 Gospels, even Jesus. Thus when you quote one of the verses, say Matt 24:34

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

that Jesus was not aware of the mystery that was hidden in God, that prior to his return, there would be at least 2000 years where Jews and Gentiles would be equal?

I am not saying you have to accept that, just asking whether you think that would be possible.

 

[delirious]

I am not saying you have to accept that, just asking whether you think that would be possible.

I would not be able to accept that and do not think that it is possible. Here is why:

I am saying that the dispensation of Grace, which lasted all these 2000 years, was actually not known to anyone in the 4 Gospels, even Jesus. Thus when you quote one of the verses, say Matt 24:34
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
that Jesus was not aware of the mystery that was hidden in God, that prior to his return, there would be at least 2000 years where Jews and Gentiles would be equal?

Jesus here says that it will happen in His generation. He doesn't know the day or the hour, but like Noah, He knows it is in His generation. He gives a long list of very specific signs for the apostles and disciples to watch for. Jesus would have been lying and/or making a lot of stuff up that He really didn't know by saying what He did to the disciples. I don't believe He would do that.

Would it be possible for you to accept that, the postponement of Jesus's return, due to the rejection by the Jews, was actually unknown to Jesus while he was preaching during the 4 Gospels.

Jesus knew that the Jews would reject Him (Luke 17: 25) so there could be no "surprise" postponement. If that was a possibility He should have said to the disciples in the Olivet Discourse that these things will only happen if the Jews reject me.

 

[Deade]

john 6:40 says resurrection/rapture is at the last day. not before it, brethren how does this work with pre-trib rapture? i ask in love. lets keep this constructive friends

Did you ever think there might be more than one last day. Jesus called the resurrection the last day but it clearly is not the same as the last great day. That is reserved for the GWTJ.

The 144,000 are not going to heaven. They were preserved alive before the seventh seal to protect them as live human beings to start over in the Promised Land. Revelation's symbolic language need to be considered. There are others left alive that are not saints to start the millennial reign. It shows it here right after the Day of the Lord: Isa. 24:6 “Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”

The white robes found in Revelation 6 and 7 are the same people in Rev. 4, 5. They are the saved caught up in the first resurrection at Christ’s coming. 1 Cor. 15:23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”

It is the same event here: 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

It doesn't say we will stay in the air or heaven. When Christ comes back the next time, He will stay. He will circle the globe for the rapture then set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Fulfilling this prophecy: Acts 1:10, 11 "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The church will be on earth during the tribulation. Many of the saints will be put to death during this time (see Rev. 2:10 & 13:7). Nobody is going to heaven. Heaven is coming to earth. There are only two resurrections. The first at Christ's coming and the second after the 1000 years (Rev. 20:5).

You are mistaken about angels gathering Jews for God supernaturally. God is doing this Himself starting with the 144,000 from every tribe (not just Jews of Judah). He is saving alive flesh and blood humans to repopulate the Promised Land for the start of the millennium.

There is one event where the dead in Christ will rise to meet the Lord, then we which are alive will be transformed with them. Then the Lord will set foot down at the Mt. of Olives (Acts 1:11). Then the great earthquake (Zech. 14:4).

 

[Guojing]

Jesus knew that the Jews would reject Him (Luke 17: 25) so there could be no "surprise" postponement. If that was a possibility He should have said to the disciples in the Olivet Discourse that these things will only happen if the Jews reject me.

Its probably not difficult for anyone to predict that the Jews would reject the Son, they have been known to be stiff necked. But 2000 years of the age of grace, do you think Jesus would have known that?

How do you understand what Paul was saying about this mystery? What is this mystery to you? For me, I believe its the 2000 years of grace dispensation that was unknown, even to Jesus during the 4 Gospels.

 

[Deade]

Okay glad we have established that point that the Father knows more than Jesus about certain timetabled events.

Its probably not difficult for anyone to predict that the Jews would reject the Son, they have been known to be stiff necked. But 2000 years of the age of grace, do you think Jesus would have known that?

How do you understand what Paul was saying about this mystery? What is this mystery to you? For me, I believe its the 2000 years of grace dispensation that was unknown, even to Jesus during the 4 Gospels.

Jesus said only that he knew not of the day and hour of His return Matt. 24:36. As far as the rest of God's plan, I believe He knew:

John 16:29, 30 "His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."

Now that Christ is on the right hand of God's throne, I believe He even knows that.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus said only that he knew not of the day and hour of His return Matt. 24:36. As far as the rest of God's plan, I believe He knew:

So, in your opinion, when Paul said

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

What is this mystery that hath been hid in God?

 

[delirious]

Its probably not difficult for anyone to predict that the Jews would reject the Son, they have been known to be stiff necked. But 2000 years of the age of grace, do you think Jesus would have known that?

Jesus is God. The Father is God. I don't know all the limitations Jesus might have in comparison to the Father. Scripture does seem to indicate that there is some. I have no problem with this.

How do you understand what Paul was saying about this mystery? What is this mystery to you? For me, I believe its the 2000 years of grace dispensation that was unknown, even to Jesus during the 4 Gospels.

Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He was entrusted with the "mystery". That mystery was that the gentiles would be grafted into Israel's covenant promises and be partakers with them. This happens through faith in Christ by the preaching of the gospel.

To say that Jesus didn't know about 2,000 years and counting of a "grace dispensation" is purely presuppositional. That doesn't come from the Scriptures but is a teaching, apparently, of some dispensationalists.

This is one of the big issues I have with dispensationalism. It is built on presuppositions instead of Scripture. The Bible says old covenant Israel ended in 70 A.D. There is no covenant with physical Jewish Israel anymore.