what happens next millenium or new earth?

[Melach]

You can argue with delirious all you want. I won't. He is a preterist and amillennialist. They skew scripture around so much I can't even relate a starting point. The mystery is what God is doing with the humans not called in this life. I am #1 on this chart.

#1 looks good friend. but who in that system of belief enters the kingdom in the flesh? all good are resurrected at second coming right? wicked destroyed who left? brother please answer me this and you win

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

#1 looks good friend. but who in that system of belief enters the kingdom in the flesh?

My apologies for being late to the party ( I saw your question from the other day, in the other thread, but I have been occupied and haven't yet been able to get to it as you have transferred here to its own thread).

I'm wondering if perhaps the following quote (below) might aid in your understanding. Note the verse to which you refer speaks of "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"... I believe the phrase "the kingdom of God" encompasses more (for lack of a better way of saying it, atm) than that of the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens [which is on the earth]" (like we see in the Olivet Discourse [esp Matt25:1,14] and Matthew 13:24,31,33,44,45,47,52 <---these being in reference to when He will "return" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka "the kingdom of the heavens"... which is what the later Matthew 25:31-34 speaks of, in that context: "Come, ye BLESSED, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM [apo G575; not BEFORE [pro G4253] as is used elsewhere of others] the foundation of the world"... This context is "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; they have not lifted off of the earth [i.e. Raptured (as this will have occurred earlier)] but are still present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there, and it is these [the "righteous" only] who will ENTER the MK time period at that time]).

Regarding the distinctions, I think William Kelly puts it better than I am (note the following excerpt of his commentary is from Romans 14 with its phrase "the kingdom of God"):

[quoting]

"The reader will observe how "the kingdom of God" is used here, not so much dispensationally as morally. Indeed it is so where the phrase occurs in Matthew, who alone also uses the well-known formula "the kingdom of heaven." Only the latter phrase invariably occurs in a dispensational sense, and means that state of things where the heavens rule now that Jesus is cast out from the earth; first, while He is hid in God; secondly, when He comes again in the clouds of heaven with power and glory. But the kingdom of God might be said to be already there, already come upon them, when He, by the Spirit of God, cast out demons. The kingdom of heaven, contrariwise, could not be said to have come till He went on high. Thus the kingdom of God might be used where the kingdom of heaven occurs but also as here where it could not be. The apostle insists that the kingdom of God cannot be lowered to that which perishes with the using; it is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, the inward spirit and practical power of the Christian. "For he that in this serves Christ [is] acceptable to God and approved of men." It is walking in the Spirit, in short, the true guard against fulfilling any lust of the flesh. "Against righteousness and peace and joy there is no law." "Let us therefore pursue the things of peace and the things of mutual edification." God Himself is the God of peace, and the Lord is Himself the Lord of peace who gives us peace continually in every way. Knowledge puffs up, love alone builds up. And as He builds His church infallibly upon the rock, the confession of His own name, so we, by the godly use of His name, are called to build up one another. We can understand therefore how impressively the apostle again urges, "Do not for the sake of meat undo the work of God." "All things indeed [are] clean." This is freely allowed to the strong, but "it is evil to the man that eateth with stumbling." This is the danger for the weak, and love would lead the strong to consider the weak, assuredly not to help the enemy against them. "[It is] right not to eat meat nor to drink wine [nor anything] in which thy brother stumbleth or is offended or is weak." (Ver. 21.) There might be various degrees of danger; but the only thing that becomes the saint in this is to seek his brother's good."

--William Kelly, Commentary on Romans 14

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

Hope this helps.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To the above, I would like to also add (from that other thread where you had asked me some questions) a post where I had been asked about that first question by another poster shortly before you posed yours to me, in which I had addressed the same question to that poster. Follow the link I had put in the following post (which will take you to another thread where I covered [briefly] the Q regarding 2 Thessalonians 1:7 [in my first paragraph] as well as the wider CONTEXT of that passage):

https://christianchat.com/threads/a...n-christ-shall-rise-first.183853/post-3887606

 

[Deade]

#1 looks good friend. but who in that system of belief enters the kingdom in the flesh? all good are resurrected at second coming right? wicked destroyed who left? brother please answer me this and you win

I guess you missed this scripture when I posted yesterday:

There are others left alive that are not saints to start the millennial reign. It shows it here right after the Day of the Lord: Isa. 24:6“Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”

I'm wondering if perhaps the following quote (below) might aid in your understanding. Note the verse to which you refer speaks of "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"... I believe the phrase "the kingdom of God" encompasses more (for lack of a better way of saying it, atm) than that of the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens [which is on the earth]" (like we see in the Olivet Discourse [esp Matt25:1,14] and Matthew 13:24,31,33,44,45,47,52 <---these being in reference to when He will "return" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [aka "the kingdom of the heavens"... which is what the later Matthew 25:31-34 speaks of, in that context: "Come, ye BLESSED, inherit the kingdom prepared for you FROM [apo G575; not BEFORE [pro G4253] as is used elsewhere of others] the foundation of the world"... This context is "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; they have not lifted off of the earth [i.e. Raptured (as this will have occurred earlier)] but are still present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there, and it is these [the "righteous" only] who will ENTER the MK time period at that time]).

This is blatantly false. You still need to work on your delivery, but it looks like you say only the saints are living in the flesh starting the millennial reign. No, see the above reference in Isaiah. The saints are caught up as spirits and stay with Christ as He sets down on the Mt. of Olives (Acts 1:11).

Also consider: Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

Now the elect above is the 144,000 young Israelites He spares in the flesh. All the rest of God's chosen will be raised immortal and have no flesh. The NT is truly lacking in references to other flesh being saved alive, bur there are other OT references.

This reference in Micah tells us that the 144,000 will be examples to other flesh on how to do things God's way. Micah 4:2 "And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

[NayborBear]

delirious dear friend. i know certain verses on the surface say all will be fulfilled in Jesus' generation but friend it was not fulfilled. this is why we must look for another interpretation

in my heart i cant go with your un-climactic apocalypse. friend it is certain all has not been fulfilled, for death and tears are still among us.

Jesus has showed me He is coming back, not when, not how, but Jesus is coming again to fix this troubl we are in. im just a creature trying to put the puzzle together.

When Jesus talks or even teaches those he is conversing with. He even speaks in "parables."
Would it help your understanding a little more, if the term "generation" Jesus was referring to were expanded to include all of mankind from the "fall of Adam?"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is blatantly false. You still need to work on your delivery, but it looks like you say only the saints are living in the flesh starting the millennial reign.

No, I am not saying that.

I am saying that the context of Matthew 25:31-34 (and following) pertains to "the nations [/Gentiles ; PLURAL]" [still-living] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (promised to Israel). Verse 40 is speaking of others NOT BEING judged/separated in this judgment/separation, "the least of these My brethren" (also "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming to the earth)... those are Jews/Israel having come to faith WITHIN the trib yrs [note: FOLLOWING our Rapture] who are the ones who will be carrying the message of INVITATION TO the earthly MK-age DURING the trib years (and the effects are shown in the Sheep/"the righteous" [of the nations[plural]/Gentiles] will ENTER that time period ["inherit the kingdom"]; This is NOT to say that no "RESURRECTED" persons will be present for the earthly MK [they will be too!], just that THIS is not a CONTEXT covering THAT subject, but only of the "still-living" [i.e. mortals] at that time [esp. re: the "nations [plural]/Gentiles" here])

 

[eternally-gratefull]

following is a message i sent to a brother or sister on this forum in another topic but i want create new topic not to create confusion. :

dear friend i do not wish to twist or skew any bible verse. i am only believing what i believe to be correct. i want to be in the truth. i hope God leads me to it if im not already in it.

if you want to unskew my teaching could you show me how these verses work with premillennialism:


2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

i wish know who can be left in flesh? righteous are given rest when Jesus is revealed in flaming fire, destroying all those who dont know God or obey gospel so nobody left in flesh to go to the milleni kingdom?

Matthew 25:46 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

this also shows eternal consequences, nobody left in flesh again?

1 Corinthians 15:50 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

how can anyone inherit the kingdom (matt 25:34) in the flesh?

2 Peter 3:10-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

here again nobody is left since earth is destroyed and peter tells them we are looking forward to new heaven and earth not millennial kingdom. ?

my dear friends how do you answer these verses, if you could, bring me the knowledge. i am willing to learn the truth always i ask you. Lord help us all to truth. amen.

i just believe what i read in the new testament its clear but what is not clear is revelation 20 in my view, how can satan be bound while he is the god of this world? i confess brethren that is the weakness in my view, but can we discuss in christian love and fellowship strengths and weaknesses and maybe iron sharpens iron and we can learn how to make all the verses fit together?

It will take many posts to try to explain all this too you..lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And sadly you will get many views..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

#1 looks good friend. but who in that system of belief enters the kingdom in the flesh? all good are resurrected at second coming right? wicked destroyed who left? brother please answer me this and you win

Jesus said whoever endured to the end will be saved, He spoke of those alive on earth at the time of his return.

These enter the kingdom AGE when he fulfills the abrahamic covenant and sits on King Davids throne in jerusalem.

All who recieve the mark of th ebeast will be slaughtered, Scripture say their carcusses will feed the birds, so after the return of Christ, we KNOW earth is still here

We also have babies being born

We also have peace between animals

We also have God punishing families who do not come to jerusalem

Non of these things occure in heaven after this earth is destroyed, it happenes BEFORE.

 

[Melach]

I guess you missed this scripture when I posted yesterday:


Also consider: Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

Now the elect above is the 144,000 Israelites He spares in the flesh. All the rest of God's chosen will be raised immortal and have no flesh. The NT is truly lacking in references to other flesh being saved alive, bur there are other OT references.

This reference in Micah tells us that the 144,000 will be examples to other flesh on how to do things God's way. Micah 4:2 "And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

good explanation. i feel bad for the 144 000, all raised immortal except them lolz

but looks like i have a pre-conceived notion that only believers can enter the kingdom. i read in zechariah 14 and in ezekiel that some people who went against Jerusalem will be spared and have to go to keep feast in Jerusalem and worship God

oh how worthy is the Lamb of praise. i love reading different views and studying prophecy. keep them coming brethren iron sharpens iron what a blessing. thank you Lord for letting us congregate here online to discuss your word. amen.

now i get it why there is a post-trib, pre-trib debate. both have strong arguments.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I see the Zechariah 14:16 verse to be speaking of those (of the nations [plural]) that did not themselves "come against Jerusalem" (though their nations did [do] so), does that make sense? I mean, this seems to parallel Matthew 24:37-41 and Luke 17:32,34, where the ones being "left" are "left to enter the MK" in mortal bodies [it is a GOOD thing, in this context] (just as in the days of Noah--compare also Daniel 2:35 [end of verse] with Genesis 9:1 [end of verse]). These are not "Rapture" contexts.


I do not believe the 144,000 are the only ones to enter the MK time period in mortal bodies. I agree with what eternally-gratefull said, here:

Jesus said whoever endured to the end will be saved, He spoke of those alive on earth at the time of his return.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to add): There are a number of contexts that speak of His "return" to the earth [not speaking of our Rapture], and all of those contexts speak of this ^. (Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, and its parallels, for one ["when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal]; Lk19:12,15,17,19 and its parallels, for another )

 

[Deade]

good explanation. i feel bad for the 144 000, all raised immortal except them lolz

but looks like i have a pre-conceived notion that only believers can enter the kingdom. i read in zechariah 14 and in ezekiel that some people who went against Jerusalem will be spared and have to go to keep feast in Jerusalem and worship God

oh how worthy is the Lamb of praise. i love reading different views and studying prophecy. keep them coming brethren iron sharpens iron what a blessing. thank you Lord for letting us congregate here online to discuss your word. amen.

now i get it why there is a post-trib, pre-trib debate. both have strong arguments.

Don't feel bad for these youngsters. I am sure they will like having an option to live their lives. They obviously have the Holy Spirit so they will have life everlasting. Possibly after the second resurrection when all the babies and mentally challenged will have their chance.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to add): There are a number of contexts that speak of His "return" to the earth [not speaking of our Rapture], and all of those contexts speak of this ^. (Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, and its parallels, for one ["when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal]; Lk19:12,15,17,19 and its parallels, for another )

...and I'd meant to say, I believe then that all who ENTER the MK time period (in mortal bodies) are solely "the righteous" (the Sheep / the Wheat), not the unbelieving/unbelievers (of that time period). Just to be clear.


As for these who enter the MK time period (the "still-living/mortals" ['the righteous']), I believe what Jesus had said in John 11:[25-]26 will apply. [Jesus Himself ("THE Resurrection AND THE LIFE" Himself!) will be "ruling" after all ]

 

[Melach]

thoughts about this video? interesting points. i wish he would not say garbage in garbage out in the end. i believe we should discuss prophecy in christian love and charity.

premillennialism is a lot more exciting. lots of things to consider.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Before I watch any video (I may or I may not, not decided yet ), let me just say that those BORN [later] TO those who ENTER the MK time period, are not "BORN automatically righteous"... so there will be, in the MK age, those who are susceptible to "death" (death will be much more rare and reserved only for the rebellious, as I see it, in the MK age). So this "rule" (Zech 14:16-19) is not just referring to those who ENTER the MK age ["the righteous" who will "never die"] but those later born to them DURING the Mk age, who are not "BORN automatically righteous". (meaning, verses 17-19 refer to the longer spans, and not merely to those who will ENTER the time period, like v.16 does)

 

[garee]

If you mean me?
A premillianist believes Jesus returns to the earth before millenium. In short.
An Amillianist believes there is no millenium.

Amillianist beleive they are in it .The last days .It began at the time of reformation. From then it has been heading toward the last day, the day of the lord the time until we will no longer need of confidence Philippians 1:6 Been moving for nearly two thousand literal years.

 

[delirious]

I dont know which bible you use. My bible says in revelation 1, 1 nothing about how to read it. And nothing about not to read it literal.

In the NKJV and KJV the English word is signified. In the newer versions it will say communicated. That word in the Greek is Semaino. Semaino means "to give a sign". Rev 1: 1 is telling you the book is written in signs and symbols. If a person reads Revelation in a literal fashion they are ignoring what the book says in the first verse.

Sure psalms have poetic and also literal phrases. But where not written as teaching, but as prayer.
In so war we can lern about God and the creation, but we cant create a doctrine from. If it dont fit to the rest of the bible.

I did not get the doctrine of the earth, sun and moon enduring forever only from the psalms. I included verses from Ecclesiastes and Jeremiah.

And God lived among them and they had peace? (Joel 1,27; 3,17;3,20)
Btw. Joel 2, 28-30 is not full fulfilled till today! Because it is prophecy in a time when Israel lives free.

Joel 3: 17 and 3: 20 that you quoted are talking about the New Jerusalem. It is not a physical Jerusalem in the middle east. What does Paul say about this?

Galatians 4: 25-26, "for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all."

What was the Jerusalem that was above? That was the New Jerusalem which came down from heaven in 70 A.D. It is the same Jerusalem in Joel 3: 17 & 3: 20. Go back a couple verses to Joel 3: 15. What does that verse say? It says "the sun and moon will grow dark and the stars will diminish in brightness". Same thing Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24: 29 about the fall of earthly Jerusalem and that it would happen in His generation.

Joel 2: 28-30 is fulfilled. Israel (the remnant) and the New Jerusalem have lived free since 70 A.D. You are looking for a literal city which the Bible denies.

Ore do you pick only those verses out which fit in your doctrine?

There are many people on here who pick and choose what they want to believe. I try not to do that. You only deceive yourself when you do that. The Bible teaches only one timeline. It is actually very clear in the Scriptures if a person will accept what the Scripture says. Jesus came back in 70 A.D. The resurrection and judgment took place at that time. And the new heavens and earth began then. Anybody who teaches a future second coming goes against what the Bible teaches. He already came back.

 

[Melach]

^ Before I watch any video (I may or I may not, not decided yet ), let me just say that those BORN [later] TO those who ENTER the MK time period, are not "BORN automatically righteous"... so there will be, in the MK age, those who are susceptible to "death" (death will be much more rare and reserved only for the rebellious, as I see it, in the MK age). So this "rule" (Zech 14:16-19) is not just referring to those who ENTER the MK age ["the righteous" who will "never die"] but those later born to them DURING the Mk age, who are not "BORN automatically righteous". (meaning, verses 17-19 refer to the longer spans, and not merely to those who will ENTER the time period, like v.16 does)

what about john 6:40 in the pre-trib camp? resurrection on the last day. like in rev 20:4. or in 1 thess 4:15-17 to the "coming" of the Lord. is there a single verse that says a resurrection of the dead in Christ/rapture occurs before the last day?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ delirious, if you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 (ALL of these the SAME "the beginning of birth PANGS")

... then consider the following:

The "SEE" then "FLEE" is indeed following the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]" in Matthew 24.

But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (and then [vv.12-24a] describes the 70ad events which must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]/and 1Th5:2-3 is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")]

so...

in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs" [which is Matt24:4-8/Mt13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and then followed by much more...].


Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)