what happens next millenium or new earth?

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Melach

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I did not say they would be destroyed. You just assumed that. Actually they are resurrected at different times. Do you think a God of love would condemn someone that was deceived into believing a false religion thinking they were okay? I don't. :cool:
of course i did. verse says they go to eternal judgment matthew 25:46.

are you a universalist? God would and will and has. ignorance is rarely an excuse, see romans 1
 

Deade

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of course i did. verse says they go to eternal judgment matthew 25:46.

are you a universalist? God would and will and has. ignorance is rarely an excuse, see romans 1
No, a universalist has everyone saved, even demons. I believe God is not done with the ignorant which would include the deceived. Those that love darkness or evil will be completely destroyed when all is done. It's the best outcome for them. :cool:
 

tanakh

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what do you believe will happen next?
I believe in one second coming and judgement. I believe that the resurrection and rapture happens then. Meanwhile Christ reigns
over heaven and earth. He has since his ascension. At his first coming he set up his kingdom here. It started with his Jewish disciples and like a planted seed has been growing ever since. His parables explain this. So does Daniels vision of a great statue being struck by a stone that grows into a mountain. Christs kingdom will conquer all that oppose his reign. The statue represents the worlds empires.
I see the world getting worse until Christ returns suddenly when no one expects him. Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth
 

delirious

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One age ends and in the next age some who speak against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. So when that age ended(the one they were in in Matt.12:32) and the next began is it the final judgment or does it come after the age referred to as "age to come" by Jesus? Where is the missing age that is between the age they were in and the final judgment?
Hello iamsoandso. Hope you are doing well brother. You already know my view which is the same as Locutus. I only see two ages here. I don't see a "missing" age.

The final resurrection and judgment happened in 70 A.D. on the last day of the old heavens and earth (old covenant Israel). People who have lived and died since 70 A.D. still have a judgment right after they die (Heb 9: 27). It is interesting that near death experiences seem to confirm this. I don't put much stock in things outside of Scripture but it is an interesting correlation.

Jesus said in Matt 12: 28, a few verses before what you quoted, that He was casting out demons by the Spirit of God. The Pharisees did not believe that. Jesus also said that anybody who blasphemes the Spirit, which I take simply to be unbelief, will not be forgiven in that age or in the age to come (after 70 A.D.).

Jesus said to Nicodemus that he must be born again in John 3. He said to him that that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. Jesus also said His words were Spirit and life in John 6: 63. If a person does not believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit through the works Jesus did, like the Pharisees, or through the proclamation of the gospel message, which Christians have been doing for 2,000 years, then they can't be born again and forgiven.
 

Melach

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Hello iamsoandso. Hope you are doing well brother. You already know my view which is the same as Locutus. I only see two ages here. I don't see a "missing" age.

The final resurrection and judgment happened in 70 A.D. on the last day of the old heavens and earth (old covenant Israel). People who have lived and died since 70 A.D. still have a judgment right after they die (Heb 9: 27). It is interesting that near death experiences seem to confirm this. I don't put much stock in things outside of Scripture but it is an interesting correlation.

Jesus said in Matt 12: 28, a few verses before what you quoted, that He was casting out demons by the Spirit of God. The Pharisees did not believe that. Jesus also said that anybody who blasphemes the Spirit, which I take simply to be unbelief, will not be forgiven in that age or in the age to come (after 70 A.D.).

Jesus said to Nicodemus that he must be born again in John 3. He said to him that that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. Jesus also said His words were Spirit and life in John 6: 63. If a person does not believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit through the works Jesus did, like the Pharisees, or through the proclamation of the gospel message, which Christians have been doing for 2,000 years, then they can't be born again and forgiven.
brother where is the hope in your view? why isnt death swallowed up in victory? why is it worse than it was in Adam and Eve day? why do animals still eat each other? why is the world full of evil?

i dont know what you were before this, but im sure it had more hope.
 

iamsoandso

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Hello iamsoandso. Hope you are doing well brother. You already know my view which is the same as Locutus. I only see two ages here. I don't see a "missing" age.

The final resurrection and judgment happened in 70 A.D. on the last day of the old heavens and earth (old covenant Israel). People who have lived and died since 70 A.D. still have a judgment right after they die (Heb 9: 27). It is interesting that near death experiences seem to confirm this. I don't put much stock in things outside of Scripture but it is an interesting correlation.

Jesus said in Matt 12: 28, a few verses before what you quoted, that He was casting out demons by the Spirit of God. The Pharisees did not believe that. Jesus also said that anybody who blasphemes the Spirit, which I take simply to be unbelief, will not be forgiven in that age or in the age to come (after 70 A.D.).

Jesus said to Nicodemus that he must be born again in John 3. He said to him that that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. Jesus also said His words were Spirit and life in John 6: 63. If a person does not believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit through the works Jesus did, like the Pharisees, or through the proclamation of the gospel message, which Christians have been doing for 2,000 years, then they can't be born again and forgiven.

lol, So the final Resurrection and Judgment happened in ad70?,,,,The Millennial came and ended, the first Resurrection at the beginning of the Mill. the casting of the beast and false prophet into the LOF, the binding of the devil for a thousand years,,,,him being loosed a little season and cast into the LOF and the second Resurrection after the thousand years all between the time Revelation was given and ad70?
 

Melach

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lol, So the final Resurrection and Judgment happened in ad70?,,,,The Millennial came and ended, the first Resurrection at the beginning of the Mill. the casting of the beast and false prophet into the LOF, the binding of the devil for a thousand years,,,,him being loosed a little season and cast into the LOF and the second Resurrection after the thousand years all between the time Revelation was given and ad70?
yes this is funny. his view isnt very serious in my view.

brother, could you look at my reasoning i post below and say if you agree or disagree:
 

Melach

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just comparing verses wouldnt this put the exact timing of the rapture and resurrection right at the second coming:

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


here is what i note: dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, when? those who are left until the coming of the Lord. the words "who are left" indicates some tribulations and trials and those who survive until the end who happen to be left will be caught up.
so in order to figure out when does this resurrection occur, and the coming, i can look elsewhere in the bible for specific timing one of these is first resurrection in revelation 20 which is at the end and a few more are:


2Thessalonians 1:6-8 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.


John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

these two verses i note: it gives us teh exact timing when God grants relief to those persecuted, its when the Lord Jesus is coming from heaven with his mighty angels in fire, this is the second coming obviosuly. same time. day of joy for christians day of wrath and mourning for unbelievers because as Paul continues in that verse they are punished with everlasting destruction.
second verse says resurrection (1 thessalonians 4:15-17) occurs at the last day which matches revelation 20:4 also. three witnesses. Jesus repeats resurrection is last day many times.


this is much more simple and clear to have one coming instead of having to separate and figure out which coming is talked about. if there is only one. i also found a verse that supports that:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

who can debunk what i said and what is wrong with this? i didnt read this from a book i just put this together on my own now. what do you friends think?
 

iamsoandso

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I'm headed to town back this afternoon,,, lol
 

delirious

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brother where is the hope in your view?
My view has tons of hope! It's what the Scripture teaches. Other Christians will say it doesn't because they don't understand it and they want a future second coming and a carnal, physical kingdom. They want to be raptured. The church is poisoned today with an escapist mentality.

why isnt death swallowed up in victory?
Death was swallowed up in victory in 70 A.D. on the last day. Read Psalm 116. It is a short Psalm. It explains the death of Rev 21: 4 and 1 Cor 15: 54 that you quoted. It is not physical death. It is spiritual death. Separation from God's presence forever.

In Psalm 116 notice how "death", "crying", "sorrow" and "pain" are all mentioned. The same things you find all mentioned in Rev 21: 4. This is spiritual death. Notice how verses 3 and 8 the Psalmist thanks God for delivering him from death. Is this physical death? No, he says in verse 15 that "precious in God's sight are the death of His saints". Verse 15 is referring to physical death. The Psalmist in Psalm 116 is thanking God for saving him from spiritual death. Separation from God forever. The entire Psalm is about that.

In 70 A.D. the resurrection took place and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Daniel etc.. along with all the Christians who had fallen asleep in the Lord entered heaven. Sleep is being separated from God. Christians who die after 70 A.D. don't sleep. They go immediately to heaven. That is some pretty good hope!

You are thinking about it all wrong like 99% of Christians have for 2,000 years. It is not a physical kingdom and Jesus said that in Luke 17: 20-21. God has never been worried about physical death. He is worried about spiritual death and wants no one to perish.
 

delirious

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lol, So the final Resurrection and Judgment happened in ad70?
That's when Jesus said it would happen. Dozens of Scriptures say that is when it would happen. It took place in the spiritual realm when the Old Testament saints sat down with those from the east and west (Gentiles) in the kingdom of God. The marriage supper of the Lamb.

the first Resurrection at the beginning of the Mill. the casting of the beast and false prophet into the LOF, the binding of the devil for a thousand years,,,,him being loosed a little season and cast into the LOF and the second Resurrection after the thousand years all between the time Revelation was given and ad70?
The millennium most likely began during Jesus' ministry or at the cross and ended right before 70 A.D. Then the little season of Satan began with the siege of Jerusalem and the Jewish revolt. The beast, false prophet and Satan and the fallen angels/watcher/principalities were all destroyed at that time in 70 A.D.

The question a person needs to ask themselves is; are they going to believe what Scripture says or are they going to go off emotions because the Scripture doesn't make sense to them on this topic? Sadly, many Christians choose the latter.

Rev 1: 1,3 & Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 tell us seven times that the things written in Revelation will shortly come to pass. Not once but SEVEN times at the very beginning and end of the book. Will people accept what Scripture says? It has been my experience that they won't. They make their decisions based off emotions.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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My view has tons of hope! It's what the Scripture teaches. Other Christians will say it doesn't because they don't understand it and they want a future second coming and a carnal, physical kingdom. They want to be raptured. The church is poisoned today with an escapist mentality.
Death was swallowed up in victory in 70 A.D. on the last day. Read Psalm 116. It is a short Psalm. It explains the death of Rev 21: 4 and 1 Cor 15: 54 that you quoted. It is not physical death. It is spiritual death. Separation from God's presence forever.
In Psalm 116 notice how "death", "crying", "sorrow" and "pain" are all mentioned. The same things you find all mentioned in Rev 21: 4. This is spiritual death. Notice how verses 3 and 8 the Psalmist thanks God for delivering him from death. Is this physical death? No, he says in verse 15 that "precious in God's sight are the death of His saints". Verse 15 is referring to physical death. The Psalmist in Psalm 116 is thanking God for saving him from spiritual death. Separation from God forever. The entire Psalm is about that.
In 70 A.D. the resurrection took place and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Daniel etc.. along with all the Christians who had fallen asleep in the Lord entered heaven. Sleep is being separated from God. Christians who die after 70 A.D. don't sleep. They go immediately to heaven. That is some pretty good hope!

You are thinking about it all wrong like 99% of Christians have for 2,000 years. It is not a physical kingdom and Jesus said that in Luke 17: 20-21. God has never been worried about physical death. He is worried about spiritual death and wants no one to perish.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 -

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For THIS corruptible must put on incorruption [this is "the dead in Christ"], and THIS mortal must put on immortality [this is the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"].

54 So when THIS corruptible ["the dead in Christ"] shall have put on incorruption, and THIS mortal [the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"] shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


So in the later 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 passage (and wider context), ONLY the "THIS mortal [the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..."] is being covered in these specific verses:


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon [with our glorified bodies, APART from having to DIE FIRST] with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked [that is, being "absent from the body" for a time, UPON our DEATH].

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed [same as bracketed insert in verse 3], but clothed upon [same as bracketed insert in v.2], that mortality [the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..."] might be swallowed up OF LIFE. [this is speaking of when, as STILL-LIVING members of "the Church which is His body" are "changed" APART from having to DIE first; i.e. this occurs at "our Rapture"--a physical/bodily "change"--and the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]

Martha well-knew of "resurrection" at the last day; but the ABOVE ^ was unknown to her (until it was later revealed and explained via the NT epistles [1Cor2:10a,16b])
 

Melach

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1 Corinthians 15:51-54 -

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For THIS corruptible must put on incorruption [this is "the dead in Christ"], and THIS mortal must put on immortality [this is the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"].

54 So when THIS corruptible ["the dead in Christ"] shall have put on incorruption, and THIS mortal [the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"] shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


So in the later 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 passage (and wider context), ONLY the "THIS mortal [the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..."] is being covered in these specific verses:


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon [with our glorified bodies, APART from having to DIE FIRST] with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked [that is, being "absent from the body" for a time, UPON our DEATH].

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed [same as bracketed insert in verse 3], but clothed upon [same as bracketed insert in v.2], that mortality [the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto..."] might be swallowed up OF LIFE. [this is speaking of when, as STILL-LIVING members of "the Church which is His body" are "changed" APART from having to DIE first; i.e. this occurs at "our Rapture"--a physical/bodily "change"--and the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]

Martha well-knew of "resurrection" at the last day; but the ABOVE ^ was unknown to her (until it was later revealed and explained via the NT epistles [1Cor2:10a,16b])
very nice. are the tribulation saints in Christ too? dead in Christ shall rise first.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Rev 1: 1,3 & Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 tell us seven times that the things written in Revelation will shortly come to pass. Not once but SEVEN times at the very beginning and end of the book. Will people accept what Scripture says?
No. Revelation 1:1 and 22:6 say specifically, "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not "shortly/quickly" or "soon" which are ADVERBS--and where the adverbs ARE used, it refers to the writings themselves, as I see it). This "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" also involves Lk18:8[chpt17-end] and Rom16:20 (the latter correlating with the 1Cor6:3[14] "we shall judge angels," [not merely "wrestle" ;) ] which occurs when "judgments" are taking place, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev4-5; Lam2:3-4 (LIKE 2Th2:7b-8a)] which I do not believe is or has been taking place yet)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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very nice. are the tribulation saints in Christ too? dead in Christ shall rise first.
I believe the Trib saints (like the OT saints) fit into the category [called] "[re: resurrection] they [plural] that ARE Christ's [or, those [pl] OF Christ"] at His coming" (which verse I believe refers specifically to His Second Coming to the earth, BECAUSE of the following verse which states "THEN [G1534 - eita (a SEQUENCE only word)] the end... when"). I believe "IN Christ" refers specifically to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 note when that was), and we will be caught UP "AS ONE" (the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]") at our "Rapture".

[recall, I believe "[re: resurrection] … but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" means there remains more than merely one]
 

Melach

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I believe the Trib saints (like the OT saints) fit into the category [called] "[re: resurrection] they [plural] that ARE Christ's [or, those [pl] OF Christ"] at His coming" (which verse I believe refers specifically to His Second Coming to the earth, BECAUSE of the following verse which states "THEN [G1534 - eita (a SEQUENCE only word)] the end... when"). I believe "IN Christ" refers specifically to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 note when that was), and we will be caught UP "AS ONE" (the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]") at our "Rapture".
i always thought pre-tribbers believe those that are Christ's at his coming mean the rapture coming. which group is teh rapture part of then? you got: Christ firstfruits, they that are Christ's at his coming. where is the third group?

post-trib fits best to that model.

@dcontroversal what about John 14:1-3? how can that be fulfilled in post-trib prewrath? since we wouldnt go back to heaven to be with Jesus but turn back and come to earth?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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i always thought pre-tribbers believe those that are Christ's at his coming mean the rapture coming. which group is teh rapture part of then? you got: Christ firstfruits, they that are Christ's at his coming. where is the third group?

post-trib fits best to that model.
Well, I do realize that most pre-tribbers do view it that way, but I pretty much disagree because of one of the reasons I post about quite frequently, and that is, the following (for example):

--the 10 Virgins/Bridesmaids [PLURAL], it says, "went in WITH [G3326 - meta - accompany[-ing]] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the earthly MK)

--the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" and/or "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [SINGULAR]" is said to be ["so shall we ever be"] "WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION with' / 'IDENTIFICATION with' / 'IDENTIFIED with'] the Lord" (at the time of our Rapture [pre-trib; and recall, I believe the "24 elders" sitting on "24 thrones" and wearing "stephanos/crowns" are representative of "the Church which is His body," present in Heaven BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (and thereafter "we shall judge angels" 1Cor6:3[14], UP THERE "with Him" ;) --one of the purposes of our Rapture, IMV )])
 

Melach

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okay guys. i want a post-trib vs pre-trib comparison table or something from both sides represented.

anyone got something for me? i think both are biblical at this moment lolz

one thing i know is: we wont be there at the day of the Lord. thats obvious from the letters to thessalonica. it says the day shall overtake them not us.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT: gotta EDIT my post to say "FIVE [of the 10] VIRGINS [PLURAL]" went in "with [G3326] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (not all TEN [PLURAL], as I'd made it look, in my post :D ). I usually do clarify that, but was typing too fast, lol
 

TheDivineWatermark

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one thing i know is: we wont be there at the day of the Lord. thats obvious from the letters to thessalonica.
Well, and out of the 100 reasons why I believe Pre-trib, this ^ is one of the TOP.

This is because we will not be here for "the Day of the Lord [time period]," but "the man of sin" (and ALL he will DO therein [in that 7-yr portion of the entire long "DOTL" time period which also goes on to INCLUDE the entire MK]) WILL be "present" for it! (2Th2:9a "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" [re: 'man of sin'] at the START of it [comp.Dan9:27a[26] "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]".])

"3 that day will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [i.e. our Rapture / our episynagoges [noun] UNTO HIM" (the noun-EVENT of v.1!)] AND [a distinct thing-->] the man of sin be revealed" (this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in the 2Th2:3-8 passage, and is the SAME SEQUENCE as was told of in 1Th4-5)