What if Daniel did have a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
#61
The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,858
16,108
113
#62
The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.
The people of the prince who shall come

cant be Jesus, by this time, Jesus came and went

they say our belief makes no sense. yet it makes perfect sense
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,085
443
83
#63
The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.
From what I've read of him in this thread, it seems his focus is on properly attributing the last week of the 70 'sevens' prophecy to the Messiah and not to an antichrist, without which there isn't support for a 7 year tribulation in the future.

Daniel 9:27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one 'seven': and in the midst of the 'seven' he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.."
 

Washed

Active member
Mar 27, 2020
190
76
28
#64
Christ brought in everlasting everlasting righteousness at the cross, this is part of the 70 weeks
Everlasting righteousness is not here yet.

He also anointed the most Holy:

(Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us)

"eternal redemption" - everlasting righteousness.
I do not agree. Eternal redemption is not the same as everlasting righteousness. Everlasting righteousness will not be here until the eternal kingdom, when there will be no more death, all sin abolished, etc.

Yes, he made and "end of sins", you are thinking that there would be no more sin on earth, this is a misunderstanding and would place the "end of sins" thousands of years past the destruction of the city ("determined upon") and the anointing of the most holy.
I do not believe what happened in 70AD is the fulfillment of Dan 9:24.

The "ending of sin" is a covenant position, where in the past there was a covenant remembering of sins, in Christ there is no longer a "remembering":

(Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.)

(Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.)
No offence, but where does the Bible say: "The 'ending of sin' is a covenant position"? I take the phrase more literally.
 

Washed

Active member
Mar 27, 2020
190
76
28
#65
It's insanity how faithfully they stand on nothing. This futurist deception is the most crazy thing I've had my eyes open to yet, and it blows my mind how fast it can take a brother who was your friend last week and cause them to condemn you as a joke and have you burning in a heretical hell the second you even disagree with the golden calf of the pre trib rapture. This deceptive view has reborn believers arguing with me that Jesus is not King right now. Anything that made this combination of words to leave my lips would give me pause, but nope, they arrogantly refuse to even consider anything else. Just blows my mind.
For the record, I believe Preterism, whether full or partial, and a-millennialism are crazy.

But neither side should condemn the other to hell for their end-times beliefs. People are not saved based on whether their eschatology is right or not.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
#66
No offence, but where does the Bible say: "The 'ending of sin' is a covenant position"? I take the phrase more literally.
The "remembering" of sin is part of the covenant, in this the case I was speaking towards and in context of the covenant Daniel is speaking of the Mosaic covenant.

Just as in Revelation John is speaking of "remembrance" of Israel blood guilt:

(Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath)

Same in Ezekiel:

(Ezek 21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,726
1,064
113
#67
After the 69th week = in the 70th week.
The crucifixion (death of Messiah) is in verse 26 and the seventieth week is not introduced till verse 27.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


There is nothing in the grammar or wording that allows the last part of verse 26 to be moved ahead into verse 27
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,460
6,131
113
#68
How can Jesus be Antichrist using the same scripture?
As I already said, you have absolutely no clue about Bible prophecy, and should not even be engaging in these discussions. Unless a person is fully committed to believing the Bible, and not some crazy man-made doctrines, he or she will never understand. Messiah the Prince is Christ, whereas "the prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A DESTROYED AND BRINGS DESOLATIONS
...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Dan 9:26)

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A BLASPHEMER AND ENEMY OF GOD
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. (Dan 11:36,37)

Note "the indignation" mentioned above is God's indignation against the desecration (pollution) of the future temple (sanctuary) with the Abomination of Desolation, and that triggers the desolations which are predetermined.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
721
215
43
27
Anacortes, WA
#70
Our conclusions have to be consistent with what the Word says.

Gabriel said 70 weeks.
שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwaʿ"week"="heptad" (a unit of 7). But the question is: A unit of 7...what? days? weeks? months? years?
Well...Moses gives us some insight in Gen 29:26-28:

"But Laban said, “It is not the practice in our place to marry off the younger before the firstborn.
"Complete the
week of this one, and we will give you the other also for the service which you shall serve with me
for another
seven years.” Jacob did so and completed her week, and he gave him his daughter Rachel as his wife."

Someone might object to this meaning of the word שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwa. But here's where it becomes clear that "7 years" IS the meaning of each "week" in Daniel 9:24-27:

69 x (7 years) = 483 years = 173,880 days.
We know that this timeline began on March 14, 445 BC (The "issuing of a a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" by King Artaxerxes) Neh 2:1-8.
Exactly 173,880 days after that decree, Jesus came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey, The Triumphal Entry....which fits perfectly with Gabriel's prophesy because Jesus was "cut off" (killed/crucified). In His Triumphal Entry, Christ, in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9, officially presented Himself to the nation of Israel as the Messiah. He was evidently familiar with Daniel’s prophecy when on that occasion He said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes” (Luke 19:42).

So what this tells us is that the weeks of Daniel's prophesy are units of 7 years. This means that the 70th week is a 7-year period just like the rest.

According to Dan 9:26 the Anointed One was not “cut off” in the 70th “seven”; He was cut off after the 7 and 62 “sevens” had run their course. This means that there is an interval between the 69th and 70th “sevens.” Christ’s crucifixion, then, was in that interval, right after His Triumphal Entry, which concluded the 69th “seven.” This interval was anticipated by Christ when He prophesied the establishing of the church (Matt. 16:18). This necessitated the setting aside of the nation Israel for a season in order that His new program for the church might be instituted. Christ predicted the setting aside of the nation (Matt. 21:42–43).

Because this prophecy is "for your people" (vs 24=The Jews, not the Gentiles)...
...The present Church Age is the interval between the 69th and 70th “sevens.”
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#71
As I already said, you have absolutely no clue about Bible prophecy, and should not even be engaging in these discussions. Unless a person is fully committed to believing the Bible, and not some crazy man-made doctrines, he or she will never understand. Messiah the Prince is Christ, whereas "the prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A DESTROYED AND BRINGS DESOLATIONS
...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Dan 9:26)

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A BLASPHEMER AND ENEMY OF GOD
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. (Dan 11:36,37)

Note "the indignation" mentioned above is God's indignation against the desecration (pollution) of the future temple (sanctuary) with the Abomination of Desolation, and that triggers the desolations which are predetermined.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)
Read this, it will make it clear for you and others.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/closing-the-gap-in-dispensationalism.190094/
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#72
The crucifixion (death of Messiah) is in verse 26 and the seventieth week is not introduced till verse 27.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


There is nothing in the grammar or wording that allows the last part of verse 26 to be moved ahead into verse 27
“And after threescore and two weeks [= in the 70th week] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” Daniel 9:26 (KJV 1900)
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#73
I do not say Jesus is the antichrist.

You're the one who thinks "the prince that shall come" in Dan 9:26 is Jesus. You're the one saying Jesus is the antichrist.
You change the subject to Antichrist instead of Jesus IF you have two different princes in the same passage.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#74
Daniels Prophecy is about two different periods. After the Messiah was cut of; the Prince that came was Titus with his army they destroyed the temple and the city. This happened in AD70. After the city and sanctuary were destroyed desolation's were determined. There is no mention of how long the desolation's last. To date it has been about 2000 years The seventieth week doesn't follow on from the 69th. Titus never made a seven year covenant with Israel; but he was a type of the Antichrist to come during the future seventieth week which is the second period of time covered by the Prophecy.
If the 70th week is yet future, why were the Magi looking for the Messiah 2k years ago?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,610
360
83
#75
what is the sentence structure of the text?
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#76
The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.
You are saying a gap replaces everything from the time of Jesus' baptism, including his crucifixion, until after Stephen's death. And I have a problem?
 

Washed

Active member
Mar 27, 2020
190
76
28
#77
You are saying a gap replaces everything from the time of Jesus' baptism, including his crucifixion, until after Stephen's death. And I have a problem?
Your problem is that you completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent what people are saying.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#78
Your problem is that you completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent what people are saying.
How so? If you place a Gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, it means Jesus was not crucified, and he became Antichrist instead who appears thousands of years in the future in a Judaistic setting with animal sacrifices. = Christianity and Jesus are a delusion and a cult.
 

Washed

Active member
Mar 27, 2020
190
76
28
#79
How so? If you place a Gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, it means Jesus was not crucified, and he became Antichrist instead who appears thousands of years in the future in a Judaistic setting with animal sacrifices. = Christianity and Jesus are a delusion and a cult.
Your mistake continues to be in not understanding that Jesus was crucified before the 70th week, not in the middle of the 70th week.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
732
113
#80
Your mistake continues to be in not understanding that Jesus was crucified before the 70th week, not in the middle of the 70th week.
This is a false doctrine necessary for Dispensationalists to turn Jesus into the Antichrist. Stick with scripture and you will see the difference.