What if you die before water baptism?

[Thunderrr-mental]

“Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:31-33‬ ‭

“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s our judgement the eternal words of Jesus Christ the judge and savior of all mankind the same word he sent into all the world for either salvation or damnation

It will stand forever

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. …..But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Luke 12:13-14

New International Version



The Parable of the Rich Fool
13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?”

Partly correct you forgot one thing he that abides in him also has a sword.

And that sword will judge you until the day of judgement, not me or anyone else less they be judged.

You've also not interpreted that not one person can use Jesus to judge another person.

Jesus point blank says here in Luke, that ye can not ask me to be an arbiter between brother in a dispute, which also means you can not use Jesus as a proof source to prove yourself in higher authority.

Neither should you use the holy spirit that way.

So now I ask you, do you know who your talking to.

Are you talking to the lord or are you talking to the word that judges you.

Because luke clearly says you must settle disputes with your brother

So I ask ye once again if ye forgive sin can the father

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Luke 12:13-14

New International Version



The Parable of the Rich Fool
13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?”

Partly correct you forgot one thing he that abides in him also has a sword.

And that sword will judge you until the day if judgement, not me or anyone else less they be judged.

You've also not interpreted that not one person can use Jesus to judge another person.

Jesus point blank says here in Luke, that ye can not ask me to be an arbiter between brother in a dispute, which also means you can not use Jesus as a proof source to prove your self in higher authority.

Neither should you use the holy spirit that way.

So now I ask you, do you know who your talking to.

Are you talking to the lord or are you talking to word that judges you.

Because luke clearly say ms you must settle disputes with your brother

So I ask ye once again if ye forgive sin can the father

I again don’t even know what you’re talking about Jesus is the one judge of everyone . I’m going to stop responding now I’ve told you I don’t want to waste time going in circles

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I again don’t even know what you’re talking about Jesus is the one judge of everyone . I’m going to stop responding now I’ve told you I don’t want to waste time going in circles

you still have yet to answer if you believe the lambs of christ are a living sacrifice for forgiveness of sins

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

So everything that has been discussed so far is on the bases that water baptism brings forgiveness

So far I have brought many cards into play

But here's the trump card


John 20:23

New International Version



23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive they are not forgiven

So who is this scripture talking to 😊

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

So everything that has been discussed so far is on the bases that water baptism brings forgiveness

So far I have brought many cards into play

But here's the trump card


John 20:23

New International Version



23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive they are not forgiven

So who is this scripture talking to 😊

did Jesus give his lambs the authority to forgive sins

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

First cone the Jew who refused to accept the lord, preached to them by the Hebrew.

So then come the saved gentile.

The lamb of Christ

A suggestion,

The Jew must be baptised by a saved gentile, in order to have circumcision of the heart 😂

Because the Jew rejects the saved gentile 😊

And the lord has made no distinction.

So the Jews will not be saved untill The Jews are grafted in with the gentile.

There for the Jew must be baptised by a Christian who can forgive them there sin.

Because the spirit in the Christian whom Jesus left will know the sincerity of the unbelieving Jews

 

[Moses_Young]

The other thing I thought about is people seem to insist the repentant thief was on the cross was not ever baptised but how do they know. Jesus was water baptised himself, so he could have been part of the many that were baptised in the river Jordan. Serving out his sentence on the cross doesnt mean he couldnt have been.

Because just hours before, he was mocking Jesus with the other thief. So even if he was baptised, it certainly was not a believer's baptism, because he only believed on the cross. Those who believe baptism is necessary for salvation concede this point, else Paul would not have re-baptised the disciples of Apollos (?) who had not received the Holy Spirit.

I guess a whole denomination (Baptists) must be wrong then, to insist people believe and be baptised.

Not at all. Baptism is commanded, and it's a good thing. But it has nothing to do with salvation. Paul warned the Galatians that they risked hell-fire if they consented to circumcision. But he circumcised Timothy, so it wasn't that he was against circumcision itself. A good thing can be a bad thing if done for the wrong reason. Baptism for obedience is good. Baptism if done as part of attaining salvation may actually prevent salvation.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Looks like @Pilgrimshope has become a nun on the run 😬

 

[SilverFox7]

Same thing happens with baptism or communion upon or really anything he taught us to act upon . when we reject what Jesus said and start questioning it and grab onto the other things we hear we’re losing faith

Amen. It's really quite simple, isn't it? And, all we have to do is go back to our decision to rebel against God in the garden to understand the root cause of our woes. The devil's tricks haven't changed--he loves to create doubt and have us question how God has instructed us to live. The fruit looks good, tastes good, but the effects on our lives and those around us can be devastating--that's sin.

It all gets back to faith as you said. I need to ask God for faith continually, or my wayward nature and mind will throw me off track as well. I remember getting baptized in the church I was attending in my early 20s, and it was a huge deal. I went through intensive Bible study and a lot of prayer and fasting. I needed to count the cost of committing my life unconditionally to Jesus Christ.

I had a great pastor who guided me along the way, and when I was immersed under the water in the bathtub of one of our deacons, I did feel that new life when I was pulled back out of the water. It was a conscious and willing decision and one of the happiest days of my life.

One of my friends in that church was never able to make that next step in his life to become baptized. While he believed in Christ, he was afraid of the commitment and, of course, the persecution from the devil and his world once we become a full disciple of Jesus. I'm not sure if he ever made that choice to become baptized later in life and, if not, do I think he's lost forever? No, it may take the general resurrection to enable him to make that next step and accept the gift of salvation.

I love how Paul uses baptism as a type of what the Israelites experienced during the exodus from Egypt:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

King James Version

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Baptism for me meant leaving my life of sin behind (Egypt), having faith that God will fight my battles for me (Pharoah/Satan and the pursuing armies stopped in their tracks by God), immersing myself in the watery grave (passing through the sea in faith), and emerging as a child of God journeying towards His kingdom while my sins are left in the watery grave (Israelites emerging out of the sea and the Egyptian army having the walls of water come crashing down upon them).

It all gets back to our "Rock," Jesus Christ. He commanded us to be baptized as His disciples, and that's what we need to promote as His Church!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen. It's really quite simple, isn't it? And, all we have to do is go back to our decision to rebel against God in the garden to understand the root cause of our woes. The devil's tricks haven't changed--he loves to create doubt and have us question how God has instructed us to live. The fruit looks good, tastes good, but the effects on our lives and those around us can be devastating--that's sin.

It all gets back to faith as you said. I need to ask God for faith continually, or my wayward nature and mind will throw me off track as well. I remember getting baptized in the church I was attending in my early 20s, and it was a huge deal. I went through intensive Bible study and a lot of prayer and fasting. I needed to count the cost of committing my life unconditionally to Jesus Christ.

I had a great pastor who guided me along the way, and when I was immersed under the water in the bathtub of one of our deacons, I did feel that new life when I was pulled back out of the water. It was a conscious and willing decision and one of the happiest days of my life.

One of my friends in that church was never able to make that next step in his life to become baptized. While he believed in Christ, he was afraid of the commitment and, of course, the persecution from the devil and his world once we become a full disciple of Jesus. I'm not sure if he ever made that choice to become baptized later in life and, if not, do I think he's lost forever? No, it may take the general resurrection to enable him to make that next step and accept the gift of salvation.

I love how Paul uses baptism as a type of what the Israelites experienced during the exodus from Egypt:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

King James Version

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Baptism for me meant leaving my life of sin behind (Egypt), having faith that God will fight my battles for me (Pharoah/Satan and the pursuing armies stopped in their tracks by God), immersing myself in the watery grave (passing through the sea in faith), and emerging as a child of God journeying towards His kingdom while my sins are left in the watery grave (Israelites emerging out of the sea and the Egyptian army having the walls of water come crashing down upon them).

It all gets back to our "Rock," Jesus Christ. He commanded us to be baptized as His disciples, and that's what we need to promote as His Church!

Wonderful brother every word
I love how the ot works with the new in those figures of the gospel they become great teachers for example

“Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can then go back and learn about the Passover sacrifice and it translates into the nt doctrine and helps us undersrsnd the sacrifice of Christ Jesus to save us from death to cause death to also Passover us who receive eternal life and pass from death into life

Or Moses entering the cloud regarding baptism and the rock that Moses smote being Christ who followed after them same spiritual drink ect Paul is really really good at quoting the Old Testament and showing how it applies to the understanding of the new

i think John is still the one I sort of prefer but Paul is really really helpful as well when we take them all in wow

 

[SilverFox7]

Wonderful brother every word
I love how the ot works with the new in those figures of the gospel they become great teachers for example

“Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can then go back and learn about the Passover sacrifice and it translates into the nt doctrine and helps us undersrsnd the sacrifice of Christ Jesus to save us from death to cause death to also Passover us who receive eternal life and pass from death into life

Or Moses entering the cloud regarding baptism and the rock that Moses smote being Christ who followed after them same spiritual drink ect Paul is really really good at quoting the Old Testament and showing how it applies to the understanding of the new

i think John is still the one I sort of prefer but Paul is really really helpful as well when we take them all in wow

No doubt my friend. The Passover and Jesus as the Lamb of God who shed His blood for us are the most powerful correlations between OT symbolism/foreshadowment with NT doctrine to me, and we're coming up on that time of year again already! Holy Week is right around the corner.

I went to a Christian seminar a number of years ago, and the keynote speaker was a Hebrew professor at a small Christian liberal arts college. He spent several hours showing us how the tabernacle/temple in the OT tied to NT teachings. It was mind blowing--the Alpha and Omega strikes again, and it all ties so nicely together in God's plan/word!

I relate so well to Paul because we are both Christian scholars, but I agree that John really hits the nail on the head with his focus on the love of Christ. I'm currently reflecting on Psalm 119 and planned to dive into Romans next. But, I'm rethinking that now and will probably start diving into the Gospel of John instead. That will fit better into the spring Holy Day season that is nearly upon us.

Another disciple I appreciate is Matthew, and I love the way he ends his Gospel:

Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

This admonition from Jesus to the original disciples holds true for us as His disciples and church today. We need to teach the gospel and baptize disciples in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No doubt my friend. The Passover and Jesus as the Lamb of God who shed His blood for us are the most powerful correlations between OT symbolism/foreshadowment with NT doctrine to me, and we're coming up on that time of year again already! Holy Week is right around the corner.

I went to a Christian seminar a number of years ago, and the keynote speaker was a Hebrew professor at a small Christian liberal arts college. He spent several hours showing us how the tabernacle/temple in the OT tied to NT teachings. It was mind blowing--the Alpha and Omega strikes again, and it all ties so nicely together in God's plan/word!

I relate so well to Paul because we are both Christian scholars, but I agree that John really hits the nail on the head with his focus on the love of Christ. I'm currently reflecting on Psalm 119 and planned to dive into Romans next. But, I'm rethinking that now and will probably start diving into the Gospel of John instead. That will fit better into the spring Holy Day season that is nearly upon us.

Another disciple I appreciate is Matthew, and I love the way he ends his Gospel:

Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

This admonition from Jesus to the original disciples holds true for us as His disciples and church today. We need to teach the gospel and baptize disciples in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

“ relate so well to Paul because we are both Christian scholars, but I agree that John really hits the nail on the head with his focus on the love of Christ.”

amen I think John really focuses on the person of Jesus and the person of the believer who is the audience is what I find in his writings he shows us who Jesus really is and also who we are supposed to be in Christ.

Paul I love because of the purposes your salmon about there together with the boom of Hebrews his writings just really explain well everything I’ve always wondered about that Jesus was saying in the gospel and I wanted to undersrsnd the doctrines better

“Another disciple I appreciate is Matthew, and I love the way he ends his Gospel:”

yes he actually details what the right doctrine is and who the audience is there regarding the great commission.

i like Matthew also a lot because of all the Old Testament fuflillments he points out even in veiled figures and also detailed accounts of the prophecy and how it was fulfilled you can really tell he was a Hebrew scholar that was convinced that Jesus was the promised messiah even as far back as the promise to Abraham and his seed

I sort of really appreciate how it starts also coming from tbe Old Testament promises given to Abraham and his son of promise and David and his son of promise sort of leads the reader who is inquisitive back there to the ot to learn what’s being said by the writer who obviously thoroughly knew the ot , and expects the reader also to have at least a bit of understanding of the ot writings

i think it’s that way because it’s geared towards ( not exclusive to ) but Mathew was really wanting to convince his Jewish brethren who knew the ot , and even gentile converts to Judaism at the time , that Jesus was the messiah from the ot prophets who had finally come with salvstion as he promised

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David,

the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he then sort of ties Seth’s line to Jesus through geneology but my point is everything inmatthew is coming from the knowledge in the law and prophets. It makes it one of the best books for gentiles because it will lead us to learn the prophets and law that are all about the gospel we believe just a foretelling of it beforehand

It sort of directly points to alot of what Paul taught in details as well as hearkens us back to the ot prophets and lives of Abraham and David

matthew really promotes study or er least inquiry of the ot by the reader.

I think something I’ve noticed of johns writings is , if you put John , together with 1 John and 2 John and revelation you really can see a clear image of what johns message to the believer is not trying to say john only or anything but just saying his message sort of works together and begins with Christs identity

His account of the gospel begins with a powerful and very different statement but also he’s reporting Jesus birth in the flesh as well , he’s simply more telling the believer who Jesus really is from the get go I fell in love with this long ago

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9-14, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Johns gospel is from a much different place or rether same place but another perspective he’s also saying Jesus was born when he starts his gospel but it doesn’t sound like a historical account like Luke , or even a bi local account based on prophecy like Matthew

airs sort of telling us what we didn’t know about Jesus being born or that we weren’t fully clear on I think anyways note revelation ends with the word of god returning from heaven victorious

 

[turbosixx]

he stated there is so such thing as spiritual baptism

Is he saying water baptism is not spiritual 🤔

I'm confused now

I'm confused by this spiritual baptism.

These believers were baptized unto John's baptism, which is water baptism. Acts 18:24-26. Paul later meets them in Acts 19 and asks them:
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Now if there is a spiritual baptism at belief, why would Paul ask this question?
Why would Paul water baptize them again? 19:5.
Are there 2 baptism? One spiritual and one physical?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'm confused by this spiritual baptism.

These believers were baptized unto John's baptism, which is water baptism. Acts 18:24-26. Paul later meets them in Acts 19 and asks them:
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Now if there is a spiritual baptism at belief, why would Paul ask this question?
Why would Paul water baptize them again? 19:5.
Are there 2 baptism? One spiritual and one physical?

water baptism leads to spiritual baptism obviously

This would be a silent thunder to 😊

 

[turbosixx]

water baptism leads to spiritual baptism obviously

This would be a silent thunder to 😊

Help me to understand how you see it. Ok, so water baptism leads to spiritual baptism. Could you please point me to some verses that tell us or illustrate that.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'm confused by this spiritual baptism.

These believers were baptized unto John's baptism, which is water baptism. Acts 18:24-26. Paul later meets them in Acts 19 and asks them:
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Now if there is a spiritual baptism at belief, why would Paul ask this question?
Why would Paul water baptize them again? 19:5.
Are there 2 baptism? One spiritual and one physical?

is Paul sure here spiritual baptism happen at water baptism or is he asking the question 🤔

 

[SilverFox7]

“ relate so well to Paul because we are both Christian scholars, but I agree that John really hits the nail on the head with his focus on the love of Christ.”

amen I think John really focuses on the person of Jesus and the person of the believer who is the audience is what I find in his writings he shows us who Jesus really is and also who we are supposed to be in Christ.

Paul I love because of the purposes your salmon about there together with the boom of Hebrews his writings just really explain well everything I’ve always wondered about that Jesus was saying in the gospel and I wanted to undersrsnd the doctrines better

“Another disciple I appreciate is Matthew, and I love the way he ends his Gospel:”

yes he actually details what the right doctrine is and who the audience is there regarding the great commission.

i like Matthew also a lot because of all the Old Testament fuflillments he points out even in veiled figures and also detailed accounts of the prophecy and how it was fulfilled you can really tell he was a Hebrew scholar that was convinced that Jesus was the promised messiah even as far back as the promise to Abraham and his seed

I sort of really appreciate how it starts also coming from tbe Old Testament promises given to Abraham and his son of promise and David and his son of promise sort of leads the reader who is inquisitive back there to the ot to learn what’s being said by the writer who obviously thoroughly knew the ot , and expects the reader also to have at least a bit of understanding of the ot writings

i think it’s that way because it’s geared towards ( not exclusive to ) but Mathew was really wanting to convince his Jewish brethren who knew the ot , and even gentile converts to Judaism at the time , that Jesus was the messiah from the ot prophets who had finally come with salvstion as he promised

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David,

the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he then sort of ties Seth’s line to Jesus through geneology but my point is everything inmatthew is coming from the knowledge in the law and prophets. It makes it one of the best books for gentiles because it will lead us to learn the prophets and law that are all about the gospel we believe just a foretelling of it beforehand

It sort of directly points to alot of what Paul taught in details as well as hearkens us back to the ot prophets and lives of Abraham and David

matthew really promotes study or er least inquiry of the ot by the reader.

I think something I’ve noticed of johns writings is , if you put John , together with 1 John and 2 John and revelation you really can see a clear image of what johns message to the believer is not trying to say john only or anything but just saying his message sort of works together and begins with Christs identity

His account of the gospel begins with a powerful and very different statement but also he’s reporting Jesus birth in the flesh as well , he’s simply more telling the believer who Jesus really is from the get go I fell in love with this long ago

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9-14, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Johns gospel is from a much different place or rether same place but another perspective he’s also saying Jesus was born when he starts his gospel but it doesn’t sound like a historical account like Luke , or even a bi local account based on prophecy like Matthew

airs sort of telling us what we didn’t know about Jesus being born or that we weren’t fully clear on I think anyways note revelation ends with the word of god returning from heaven victorious

These are fantastic ideas and observations, brother! It's quite apparent you have devoted your life to Christ and allowing Him and the Holy Spirit to write God's Word in your heart, and you have that "heart of flesh" that Ezekiel talks about in his dynamite writing that weaves in nicely with Daniel and Revelation. I'll probably come back and pick out some more of your thoughts in this excellent piece later.

"What if you die before water baptism?" That's the question that kicked off some excellent (and unusual in certain cases) discussion in this forum. Are souls lost forever or worse yet being tormented in hell fire for eternity because they didn't accept Christ in this life and become baptized? I don't think so--the folks who are in trouble (i.e. the second death in the lake of fire) are those who willfully reject Christ and all He stands for. The "lost" are those who like Satan want nothing to do with God and His Kingdom. Like Satan said in Milton's Paradise Lost, "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"--yikes, messed up thinking and living for sure.

From what I've learned from scripture, most people who die before water baptism will be given another opportunity at the general resurrection to accept Christ and receive the gift of eternal life. There are some exceptions like the thief on the cross (although Cameron threw out an interesting idea that this person could have been water baptized by John the Baptist--love the creative thinking!). How about all the heroes of faith from Hebrews 11 who are a part of God's eternal family yet were never baptized in water because that is a New Testament commandment?

Water baptism is an important part of our Christian journey. We accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and then become baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--that's the simple answer. Why would anyone want to skip the important step of baptism unless, for example, they accept Christ at the end of their lives without having the opportunity for baptism. These rare instances have no concerns from a salvation perspective in my opinion.

Baptism in water symbolizes our willingness to put the "old man" (our sinful human nature) to death in the watery grave and rise out of the watery grave as a new creation in Jesus Christ. Baptism is a commandment from our Lord and an important part of our Christian faith. For me personally as I reflect back on my baptism in my early 20s, that's when the Holy Spirit began working in my heart and mind to serve Jesus Christ in this life.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm confused by this spiritual baptism.

These believers were baptized unto John's baptism, which is water baptism. Acts 18:24-26. Paul later meets them in Acts 19 and asks them:
2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Now if there is a spiritual baptism at belief, why would Paul ask this question?
Why would Paul water baptize them again? 19:5.
Are there 2 baptism? One spiritual and one physical?

a they hadn’t heard about the holy ghost no one can receive anything from God is we havent heard about it and believed because there’s no faith like that

They hadn’t heard the message of Jesus of receiving the Holy Ghost they only were baptized by John before jesus arrived and they didn’t hear johns preaching about Jesus

they were probably among the groups early that flocked to John being visiting Jerusalem for sabbath of something from Ephesus and then didn’t stick around to hear the preaching about Jesus and the Holy Ghost

These people heard the gospel and believed

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭

these people hadn’t heard the preaching yet they had only been baptized by John for remission but never heard the message of Christ and the Holy Ghost

This group had not heard the message they were only baotized early on before Jesus came

“And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. ( how could they have believed in Jesus and received the holy ghost ?)

lAnd he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

us getting baptized without hearing and believing the gospel doesn’t mean a thing and we won’t receive anything the gospel promises we need to hear about it first

They were baotized in johns name because they never heard his preaching they just ran to get baptized probably in this time period

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.


….( this part they had t heard until oaul told them ) and preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4-5, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They hadn’t heard about that which made it impossible for faith to work

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

u til we start hearing what Gods promises in the gospel are we don’t have faith to bring them to pass

we need to hear about Jesus and then get baptized in his name remember even as johns ministry ended they began baptizing in Jesus name

Johns disciples reported this to John

“And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John responds

“John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He must increase, but I must decrease.

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:27-28, 30-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


then John sent them to be Jesus disciples and

And they continued baptizing in Jesus name now because it had been declared at his baptism the son of God the messiah was now here

“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) he left Judæa, and departed again into Galilee.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬

those in Ephesus hadn’t heard about Jesus name of the holy ghost until paul told them notice later how Paul tells them at Galatia how they received the spirit

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, ( god told him something and he believed ) and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they weren’t baptized in Jesus name because they hadn’t heard his name and to believe in him and receive his spirit ……..

John actually preached a lot of important stuff he was t just dunking the folks in water

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.


And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:29-34‬ ‭

we need to hear Gods word to receive his promises

 

[Pilgrimshope]

These are fantastic ideas and observations, brother! It's quite apparent you have devoted your life to Christ and allowing Him and the Holy Spirit to write God's Word in your heart, and you have that "heart of flesh" that Ezekiel talks about in his dynamite writing that weaves in nicely with Daniel and Revelation. I'll probably come back and pick out some more of your thoughts in this excellent piece later.

"What if you die before water baptism?" That's the question that kicked off some excellent (and unusual in certain cases) discussion in this forum. Are souls lost forever or worse yet being tormented in hell fire for eternity because they didn't accept Christ in this life and become baptized? I don't think so--the folks who are in trouble (i.e. the second death in the lake of fire) are those who willfully reject Christ and all He stands for. The "lost" are those who like Satan want nothing to do with God and His Kingdom. Like Satan said in Milton's Paradise Lost, "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"--yikes, messed up thinking and living for sure.

From what I've learned from scripture, most people who die before water baptism will be given another opportunity at the general resurrection to accept Christ and receive the gift of eternal life. There are some exceptions like the thief on the cross (although Cameron threw out an interesting idea that this person could have been water baptized by John the Baptist--love the creative thinking!). How about all the heroes of faith from Hebrews 11 who are a part of God's eternal family yet were never baptized in water because that is a New Testament commandment?

Water baptism is an important part of our Christian journey. We accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and then become baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--that's the simple answer. Why would anyone want to skip the important step of baptism unless, for example, they accept Christ at the end of their lives without having the opportunity for baptism. These rare instances have no concerns from a salvation perspective in my opinion.

Baptism in water symbolizes our willingness to put the "old man" (our sinful human nature) to death in the watery grave and rise out of the watery grave as a new creation in Jesus Christ. Baptism is a commandment from our Lord and an important part of our Christian faith. For me personally as I reflect back on my baptism in my early 20s, that's when the Holy Spirit began working in my heart and mind to serve Jesus Christ in this life.

“Are souls lost forever or worse yet being tormented in hell fire for eternity because they didn't accept Christ in this life and become baptized? I don't think so--“

yeah im not sure that doctrine is found anywhere in the Bible so I don’t think so either . I feel as if we should just believe what he said is my position about any matter Including baptism for remission of sins and share that with others

“Hell and eternal suffering “ matter hell I believe is temporary and part of this creation and at the end at judgement he’ll will itself be destroyed in the lake of fire along with everyone not written on the book of life after the dead who were in hell , are taken out of hell for judgement

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

…And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11, 13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we nite after this the old creation is no longer remembered or found , death is no more found , pain and suffering no more found all things have been made new …..I believe at this point he’ll is no more those in the lake of fire are no more and sin and death will never again be

i believe he’ll is a temporary spiritual prison for the wicked and they will have to be raised up and judged in the end and he’ll will be destroyed with this creation

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Help me to understand how you see it. Ok, so water baptism leads to spiritual baptism. Could you please point me to some verses that tell us or illustrate that.

I'm not debating the word of God I'm just expressing my view point

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”