What if you die before water baptism?
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Abraham believed and (later) was circumcised. Baptism is thankfully a little less awkward to demonstrate. But it was Abraham's belief that was credited to him as righteousness, not his circumcision. It is our faith in Christ which allows our hearts to be circumcised, not our immersion in water. Obviously, if our hearts believe, we will do what God requires. But the thief on the cross wasn't very well able to come down and be baptised.
I would suggest otherwise. Consider Hebrews 11.
Starting with Abel and mentioning up to Samuel it ends with this:
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Starting with Abel and mentioning up to Samuel it ends with this:
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Are we children of Abraham?
Genesis 15:1-6 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:1-6 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Some of us are. How are we children of Abraham? IN Christ.
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
God made the promise to Abraham but Abraham didn't receive the promise.
Peter says those before were serving us.
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
We are saved by the gospel and Abraham did not hear the gospel. That's why the bible says:
God had provided something better for us
Today we are saved by the gospel
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
God made the promise to Abraham but Abraham didn't receive the promise.
Peter says those before were serving us.
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
We are saved by the gospel and Abraham did not hear the gospel. That's why the bible says:
God had provided something better for us
Today we are saved by the gospel
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Just because I don't mention Luke's gospel doesn't mean I don't believe it. I feel like you didn't really read anything I wrote.
I mentioned Matthew and Mark's gospels because both mentioned that BOTH thieves were insulting Jesus. Luke mentioned that only one of them did - he wanted to focus on the fact that the other thief repented and believed in the course of their suffering as he witnessed the things that the Lord Jesus said and did on the cross. I wanted to emphasize that the repentant thief could not have been a follower of Jesus before that since he had joined in insulting Jesus before that.
This is the last time I respond to you. I've said everything I wanted to on the subject and if you don't want to understand what I'm talking about and make false assumptions so other people will misunderstand me, I'm just giving this over to God to deal with.
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I mentioned Matthew and Mark's gospels because both mentioned that BOTH thieves were insulting Jesus. Luke mentioned that only one of them did - he wanted to focus on the fact that the other thief repented and believed in the course of their suffering as he witnessed the things that the Lord Jesus said and did on the cross. I wanted to emphasize that the repentant thief could not have been a follower of Jesus before that since he had joined in insulting Jesus before that.
This is the last time I respond to you. I've said everything I wanted to on the subject and if you don't want to understand what I'm talking about and make false assumptions so other people will misunderstand me, I'm just giving this over to God to deal with.
🍑
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John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Which one do you believe?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him and is baptised is not condemned: but he that believeth not or he that believeth but is baptised not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (or he hath believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God, but has not been baptised).
Lol. I didn't see that until you mentioned it. 
Which one do you believe?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him and is baptised is not condemned: but he that believeth not or he that believeth but is baptised not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (or he hath believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God, but has not been baptised).
haha the peach.
Well the references in the nt about Abraham bekieving and being accounted as righteous was about believing what God said it’s directly coming from here
“And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
Genesis 15:4-6 KJV
All those references in the nt are referring to that he believes what God said to him and God credited to him as righteousness that’s all I’m saying abrahan didn’t just say “ I believe God exists “ he hears and believes Gods word to him
air wasn’t as if Abraham was a disobedient person to begin with he already showed his faith in his actions from the first mention of him in scripture
“Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: ( instruction )
and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. ( resulting promise )
(Abraham’s faith in action ) So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.”
Genesis 12:1-4 KJV
We can see this in the nt
“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
Hebrews 11:8 KJV
abraham was always a faithful man he always heard what God said to him and accepted and believed it and then acted upon it
Would Abraham get baptized if God told him this ?
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15
Either he said that or he didn’t the one thing about faith is it comes from here
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
abraham always believed what God told him his actions followed
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”
James 2:21-23 KJV
God called him righteous because he believed what God told him and followed in faith
baptism is a simple statement from God sent to all creatures of earth some won’t accept it some will but that’s basically what he said right ?
Preach the gospel to all creatures in tbe world . whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved whoever doesn’t believe will be damned
i think it’s better for Christian’s to just share the things he said will save people but I mean I’m just a guy with an opinion like the rest of you so doesn’t mean I’m right
“And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”
Genesis 15:4-6 KJV
All those references in the nt are referring to that he believes what God said to him and God credited to him as righteousness that’s all I’m saying abrahan didn’t just say “ I believe God exists “ he hears and believes Gods word to him
air wasn’t as if Abraham was a disobedient person to begin with he already showed his faith in his actions from the first mention of him in scripture
“Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: ( instruction )
and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. ( resulting promise )
(Abraham’s faith in action ) So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.”
Genesis 12:1-4 KJV
We can see this in the nt
“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
Hebrews 11:8 KJV
abraham was always a faithful man he always heard what God said to him and accepted and believed it and then acted upon it
Would Abraham get baptized if God told him this ?
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15
Either he said that or he didn’t the one thing about faith is it comes from here
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
abraham always believed what God told him his actions followed
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”
James 2:21-23 KJV
God called him righteous because he believed what God told him and followed in faith
baptism is a simple statement from God sent to all creatures of earth some won’t accept it some will but that’s basically what he said right ?
Preach the gospel to all creatures in tbe world . whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved whoever doesn’t believe will be damned
i think it’s better for Christian’s to just share the things he said will save people but I mean I’m just a guy with an opinion like the rest of you so doesn’t mean I’m right
Just because I don't mention Luke's gospel doesn't mean I don't believe it. I feel like you didn't really read anything I wrote.
i read everything the reason I asked about Luke’s gospel is because your entire comment is based on it not being true
“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:39-43 KJV
your entire comment is based on both malefactors hurling insults that’s your basis for saying he couldnt have been baptized right ?
That’s what your comment begins with remeber ? Would a baptized Christian hurl insults no !! remember ?
That’s why I asked about Luke’s account
it’s simple there’s absolutely no way for us to know of the thief on the cross was baptized that’s all my point ever was to the person I had said it to.
a there’s no way for us to know if he’s baptized or not because the whole region was getting baptized ….. basic point that means it’s not a good solid argument for non baptismal salvstion or whatever label one uses
a Jesus was baptized , all of his apostles were baptized , they went about baptizing Jew and gentile in Jesus name for remission of sins
Its written down in the Bible thoroughly and repetitively
i undersrsnd though lol I feel like alotnof times people respond to me and didNt read what I said also , I read your post maybe I’m dim and didnt get it idk I prefer learning g what’s in scripture to shape what I believe and scripture isn’t hidden when it comes to baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
it’s the baptism God sent into the world Jesus partook of and all his disciples also in his name it’s repetetivly discusses and explained in the New Testament Paul probably my wrote more revelation of what it means to get baptized for remission of sins than anyone ….
I guess people read the Bible very different ot or something i prefer to just accept the doctrines written and esrablisjed in it by the lord baptism is one that’s not really a mystery if we just read the New Testament rether thoroughly we would even understand baptism and how ot correlates to our faith in Christs death and resurrection
i read everything the reason I asked about Luke’s gospel is because your entire comment is based on it not being true
“And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:39-43 KJV
your entire comment is based on both malefactors hurling insults that’s your basis for saying he couldnt have been baptized right ?
That’s what your comment begins with remeber ? Would a baptized Christian hurl insults no !! remember ?
That’s why I asked about Luke’s account
it’s simple there’s absolutely no way for us to know of the thief on the cross was baptized that’s all my point ever was to the person I had said it to.
a there’s no way for us to know if he’s baptized or not because the whole region was getting baptized ….. basic point that means it’s not a good solid argument for non baptismal salvstion or whatever label one uses
a Jesus was baptized , all of his apostles were baptized , they went about baptizing Jew and gentile in Jesus name for remission of sins
Its written down in the Bible thoroughly and repetitively
i undersrsnd though lol I feel like alotnof times people respond to me and didNt read what I said also , I read your post maybe I’m dim and didnt get it idk I prefer learning g what’s in scripture to shape what I believe and scripture isn’t hidden when it comes to baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
it’s the baptism God sent into the world Jesus partook of and all his disciples also in his name it’s repetetivly discusses and explained in the New Testament Paul probably my wrote more revelation of what it means to get baptized for remission of sins than anyone ….
I guess people read the Bible very different ot or something i prefer to just accept the doctrines written and esrablisjed in it by the lord baptism is one that’s not really a mystery if we just read the New Testament rether thoroughly we would even understand baptism and how ot correlates to our faith in Christs death and resurrection
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You've destroyed your own argument. "Whoever does not believe......." Nothing about baptism there.
The thief on the cross was not baptised. Jesus told him that he would be in paradise. That does not sound like condemnation to me.
By receiving Christ we are made to be children of God. John 1:12
Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus John 17:3
We are saved by grace. Ephesians 2:5 and 8
God puts us into Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30
The one who believes in Jesus will not perish. John 3:18
In Acts 8 we find the account of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip the evangelist. Philip witnesses to him. It is obvious from the context that the eunuch believes. What would have happened if there was no water for the man to be baptised with? Do you really believe that the man was condemned until he was dunked? Salvation is what God does for us and not what we do for God.
We are crucified with Christ. So we are dead. What do you do with a dead body? You bury it. That's what baptism is about. Christians need to know that they are dead, buried and raised from the dead - the same as Christ because God includes us in Christ when we believe. Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:4.
What is the baptism Jesus spoke of? It's not water. We need to be baptised into Christ. This means far more than an intellectual acceptance of a fact. (Galatians 3:27). And who puts us into Christ? The Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
Making salvation conditional on water baptism is illogical, puts the onus on man to save himself, denies the grace of God and cannot be justified by scripture. It makes God out to be unfair and unjust. That is the worst part of the false doctrine.
The thief on the cross was not baptised. Jesus told him that he would be in paradise. That does not sound like condemnation to me.
By receiving Christ we are made to be children of God. John 1:12
Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus John 17:3
We are saved by grace. Ephesians 2:5 and 8
God puts us into Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30
The one who believes in Jesus will not perish. John 3:18
In Acts 8 we find the account of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip the evangelist. Philip witnesses to him. It is obvious from the context that the eunuch believes. What would have happened if there was no water for the man to be baptised with? Do you really believe that the man was condemned until he was dunked? Salvation is what God does for us and not what we do for God.
We are crucified with Christ. So we are dead. What do you do with a dead body? You bury it. That's what baptism is about. Christians need to know that they are dead, buried and raised from the dead - the same as Christ because God includes us in Christ when we believe. Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:4.
What is the baptism Jesus spoke of? It's not water. We need to be baptised into Christ. This means far more than an intellectual acceptance of a fact. (Galatians 3:27). And who puts us into Christ? The Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
Making salvation conditional on water baptism is illogical, puts the onus on man to save himself, denies the grace of God and cannot be justified by scripture. It makes God out to be unfair and unjust. That is the worst part of the false doctrine.
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John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Which one do you believe?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him and is baptised is not condemned: but he that believeth not or he that believeth but is baptised not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (or he hath believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God, but has not been baptised).
Lol. I didn't see that until you mentioned it.
Which one do you believe?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him and is baptised is not condemned: but he that believeth not or he that believeth but is baptised not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (or he hath believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God, but has not been baptised).
Lol. I didn't see that until you mentioned it.
really
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John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Which one do you believe?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him and is baptised is not condemned: but he that believeth not or he that believeth but is baptised not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (or he hath believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God, but has not been baptised).
Lol. I didn't see that until you mentioned it.
Which one do you believe?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him and is baptised is not condemned: but he that believeth not or he that believeth but is baptised not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (or he hath believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God, but has not been baptised).
Lol. I didn't see that until you mentioned it.
Looking at Mark 16:16's
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
and using the Strong's study tool's explanation of the word "kai" for "and" we find: And, even, also, namely !!!
ty, tyvm