What if you die before water baptism?

[Wansvic]

If you're born of the Spirit, you are a new creation. Water baptism is a symbolic statement only. It is not necessary for salvation. Once you're born, you're born! That holds true for natural birth and spiritual birth.

Upon review of all detailed conversion accounts it is clear both water and Spirit are elements of the NT rebirth. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

A parallel can be seen in God's design of both the natural birth and the spiritual rebirth. It is not a coincidence that both require water and Spirit. The above referenced scriptures attest to this. And, although many refute the idea, Jesus spoke of both elements being necessary in John 3:3-5

Keep in mind that a baby must experience two things in order to survive. They must exit the water of the womb and draw air into the lungs.
The NT rebirth requires being immersed and exiting the water of baptism, and receiving in the Holy Spirit into the body as well.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

It is not necessary for salvation.

A clean conscience towards God is needed for salvation and scripture tells us water baptism is something the Lord is telling us to do to bring forth a clean conscience.

Those that choose to disobey God's Word have evil desires and sadly will not be saved in the end. (see Colossians 3:5,6 )

 

[Wansvic]

I never meant it to come across that it was merely (a word I didn't use by the way) a symbol. I believe if Jesus got baptized for righteousness and he commands it, why wouldn't everyone want to follow His example. I also believe Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

for the forgiveness of sins (εις ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, eis aphesin hamartiōn): * εις (eis): This preposition can have various meanings, but here it often signifies "for the purpose of" or "resulting in."

I said it is a symbol -- not only a symbol. When replying to someone's post be careful not to put words they didn't say. (This is not meant to be mean, just caution in the future.)

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul's message in this verse underscores a core Christian doctrine: through faith in Christ and participation in baptism, believers die to their old, sinful selves and are reborn into a new life modeled after Jesus' resurrection. It's about transformation and renewal, emphasizing the believer's spiritual rebirth and the hope of eternal life.

I apologize for misunderstanding. And appreciate your words of caution.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Matthew 3"15 “And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.”

The phrase "fulfill all righteousness" encompasses Repentance, Baptism in Water, Baptism of the Holy Ghost, conforming to His laws and moral standards

Jesus' baptism by John was an act of obedience to God's plan. By submitting to baptism, Jesus was aligning Himself with God's will, demonstrating His humility and obedience, even though He was without sin and did not need baptism for repentance.

Those who propose baptism is not necessary usually don't get baptized generally.

 

[jamessb]

I never meant it to come across that it was merely (a word I didn't use by the way) a symbol. I believe if Jesus got baptized for righteousness and he commands it, why wouldn't everyone want to follow His example. I also believe Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

for the forgiveness of sins (εις ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, eis aphesin hamartiōn): * εις (eis): This preposition can have various meanings, but here it often signifies "for the purpose of" or "resulting in."

I said it is a symbol -- not only a symbol. When replying to someone's post be careful not to put words they didn't say. (This is not meant to be mean, just caution in the future.)

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul's message in this verse underscores a core Christian doctrine: through faith in Christ and participation in baptism, believers die to their old, sinful selves and are reborn into a new life modeled after Jesus' resurrection. It's about transformation and renewal, emphasizing the believer's spiritual rebirth and the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

The word "baptism" doesn't appear here -- for good reason. Baptism in water is a "work" and is not necessary for salvation.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Jesus' baptism by John was an act of obedience to God's plan. By submitting to baptism, Jesus was aligning Himself with God's will, demonstrating His humility and obedience, even though He was without sin and did not need baptism for repentance.

 

[jamessb]

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:37.38
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Colossians 2:11-13
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I'm not saying one does not first repent, believe, and confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. This is of course the first thing one does for initial salvation. Without doing this, one can get dunked in the water all they want and that does not make them saved.

After initial salvation, the Lord instructs us to be baptized which is a public demonstration and public acknowledgement before others that we are dead with Him and are raised up together unto new life.... it is making a covenant with the Lord when we are baptized, making a commitment, making a promise to turn from our old life unto living for Him.

This process is the starting point for us to start walking in newness of life, having a clean conscience toward God which is what actually saves us. Being dunked in water itself is not the moment one becomes born again as we should already be born again before getting baptized.

As mentioned in 1 Peter 3:21, having a clean conscience toward God having accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, having confessed out sins before the Lord is what saves us.

Now... as we see the thief on the Cross next to Jesus acknowledge the Lord as His Savior (Luke 23:39-43)... and Jesus told this man that he was going to paradise, if one finds themselves in a situation where it's not possible to get water baptized, then they will still be saved if they have truly been born again.

Apart from this, we are required to be baptized because God's tells us to be water baptized in His Word.

Those having opportunity to be baptized and choose to disobey God's Word are disobeying the Gospel and the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience (knowingly disobeying the Lord is an evil desire, see Colossians 3:5,6).

Through the faith of the operation of God (Colossians 2:12) through water baptism are we raised up in newness of life (Romans 6:4) to have a clean conscience towards the Lord to walk with Him and we will be saved IF we endure until the end of our life abiding IN Christ.

In conclusion, if one has opportunity to be baptized and chooses to ignore and disobey Mark 16:16, Acts 2:37.38, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:11-13, and Romans 6:4...then the after life is not going to be as they think.

There is no such thing as "initial salvation". Either you're saved by accepting Christ's sacrifice on your behalf, or you're not.

You should have written "The Lord instructs us to be baptized which is a public demonstration and public acknowledgement before others that we are [already ]dead with Him and are raised up together unto new life." A PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION THAT WE ARE BORN AGAIN, OF THE SPIRIT. It is not a requirement.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

It is not a requirement.

Those that deny and and disobey Mark 16:16, Acts 2:37.38, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:11-13, and Romans 6:4...then the after life is not going to be as they think.

IN the end you will find that your opinion is faulty and not biblical

It's a free country so by all means believe what you want - we'll see who ends up where

 

[Wansvic]

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

The word "baptism" doesn't appear here -- for good reason. Baptism in water is a "work" and is not necessary for salvation.

Obedience to baptism in water is a step of faith. A person hears the gospel message that includes the command to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin. They believe God's command and what it conveys so they submit to being baptized. All detailed conversion accounts reveal this to be true. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

There is no such thing as "initial salvation". Either you're saved by accepting Christ's sacrifice on your behalf, or you're not.

You should have written "The Lord instructs us to be baptized which is a public demonstration and public acknowledgement before others that we are [already ]dead with Him and are raised up together unto new life." A PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION THAT WE ARE BORN AGAIN, OF THE SPIRIT. It is not a requirement.

Nothing about a public demonstration in Paul's explanation of what occurs upon obedience to the command:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6

 

[Wansvic]

If you're born of the Spirit, you are a new creation. Water baptism is a symbolic statement only. It is not necessary for salvation. Once you're born, you're born! That holds true for natural birth and spiritual birth.

Why does the bible include both water baptism and the need to be indwelt by the Holy Ghost in every detailed conversion account if both are not essential to the NT rebirth?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Why does the bible include both water baptism and the need to be indwelt by the Holy Ghost in every detailed conversion account if both are not essential to the NT rebirth?

Iys Pointless asking him buddy, he's made his bed.

 

[Wansvic]

Iys Pointless asking him buddy, he's made his bed.

I have been surprised in the past by just how many people are not aware of the connection revealed in the word. I can't convince people of anything. What I can do is direct them to the word of God and pray they receive revelation.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I have been surprised in the past by just how many people are not aware of the connection revealed in the word. I can't convince people of anything. What I can do is direct them to the word of God and pray they receive revelation.

The problem is buddy people haven't been baptised buddy.

I think that's the real reason.

 

[tylerbones1313]

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

The word "baptism" doesn't appear here -- for good reason. Baptism in water is a "work" and is not necessary for salvation.

The only response I have for you is this.

(Note: Anything in bold is not intended for argumentative spirit, or to point fingers or bash anyone. It is there simply to highlight my point of view. God Bless and be safe.)

Matthew Chapter 3
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness: This is the crux of Jesus' response. The phrase "to fulfil all righteousness" is emphasizing the importance of fulfilling God's will and divine plan. Righteousness here can be understood as acting in accordance with God's will. Jesus' baptism by John was not about repentance for sin—since Jesus is sinless—but about identifying with humanity's sinful condition and inaugurating His public ministry. It was an act representing His submission to God's will, setting an example of obedience, and marking the start of His mission to bring salvation to mankind.

Jesus' public ministry, according to the New Testament, began after His baptism and lasted approximately three years before His crucifixion. The traditional chronology places the beginning of Jesus' ministry in the late 20s to early 30s AD. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, an event considered by many scholars and Christian theologians as the start of His public ministry. This event is described in all four Gospels (Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22, and John 1:29-34).

Jesus is explaining to John that His baptism is necessary to fulfill the divine requirements and God's Redemptive plan. It marks the beginning of Jesus' public ministry, and through it, Jesus models humility and obedience to God, setting an example for believers to follow. This event also signifies the endorsement of John's baptismal ministry and the transition from the era of the Law (represented by John) to the era of Grace (inaugurated by Jesus).

There are other scriptures I could use, but I thought this to be most appropriate.

1. His ministry didn't even begin until after baptism. 2. He said is was necessary for ALL Righteousness. If my Lord and Savior whom we put our trust in says its necessary I hope every Christian would follow His example.

I know this is a touchy subject reason I am so careful not to let the enemy put an arguing spirit in me.

 

[Stan_the_Man]

Nothing about a public demonstration in Paul's explanation of what occurs upon obedience to the command:

And yet we see numerous examples of people in the NT getting baptized where others are there to witness it.

What I can do is direct them to the word of God and pray they receive revelation.

Don't forget to tell them... if they don't turn, they gonna burn!

 

[Wansvic]

The problem is buddy people haven't been baptised buddy.

I think that's the real reason.

Jesus did say unless a man is born again he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. And unless he is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom. John 3:3-5

 

[Wansvic]

And yet we see numerous examples of people in the NT getting baptized where others are there to witness it.




Don't forget to tell them... if they don't turn, they gonna burn!

Scripture reveals obedience to water baptism is for remission of sin. (Mark 1:1-5, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16, etc.) Paul's explanation in Romans confirms this as well. Consider no witnesses in Paul's case. (Acts 22:16) The jailer and his family baptized at midnight; I assume no one was around to witness it.

 

[jamessb]

Nothing about a public demonstration in Paul's explanation of what occurs upon obedience to the command:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6

Why do you pick a few verses from Paul's letter to the Romans (written in archaic Englyshe) to prove doctrine?

There are very few instances where people were/are baptized in water in private.

Read Matthew 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, John 3, Acts 1, Acts 2, Acts 8, Romans 6, 1 Corinthians 1, and 1 Corinthians 15, Galatians 3. All these "books" refer to public baptism.

Additionally, Romans 6 refers to being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

And what's with the olde Englyshe and the unscriptural numbers?

 

[jamessb]

Scripture reveals obedience to water baptism is for remission of sin. (Mark 1:1-5, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 22:16, etc.) Paul's explanation in Romans confirms this as well. Consider no witnesses in Paul's case. (Acts 22:16) The jailer and his family baptized at midnight; I assume no one was around to witness it.

a) Water baptism is a symbolic act of burial and (most of the time) resurrection into a new life.
b) If baptism is for "remission of sin", then why did all the people that John baptized in the Jordan need Jesus?
c) What difference does it make if people witness a person's baptism or not? Most of the time, From the Bible era up to the present, most baptisms are witnessed by multiple people.