What is a church?

[Cameron143]

What is your bottom line point in saying this? What you're describing is the process of how, when,why someone begins to believe, which is one that can't be explained, nor why some do and some don't which is also inexplicable, but, what is your point? Belief is good, but not the end all. Belief is the 1st step in the process of salvation. James said in James 2:19 below, so, what is your point? Salvation doesn't occur upon belief, that's why other things are described that are also necessary, i.e.; confession of belief (Romans 10:8-10), repentance (Acts2:38), and baptism also Acts2 2:38 and elsewhere.
KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

According to Ephesians 2:8 we are saved by grace through faith. The apostle goes on to say it is not by works. Are not baptism and repentance works? How do you define works?

My point is that the natural fallen man is not seeking God per Romans 3:11. He possesses a carnal mind that is at enmity with God...Romans 8:7-9, a wicked heart...Jeremiah 17:9, and is estranged from and straying from God...Isaiah 53:6. The mind, the heart, and the will of man are all contrary to God. How does someone in this estate ask the question...men and brethren, what shall we do?
Hint...Acts 2:37.

 

[DJT_47]

According to Ephesians 2:8 we are saved by grace through faith. The apostle goes on to say it is not by works. Are not baptism and repentance works? How do you define works?

My point is that the natural fallen man is not seeking God per Romans 3:11. He possesses a carnal mind that is at enmity with God...Romans 8:7-9, a wicked heart...Jeremiah 17:9, and is estranged from and straying from God...Isaiah 53:6. The mind, the heart, and the will of man are all contrary to God. How does someone in this estate ask the question...men and brethren, what shall we do?
Hint...Acts 2:37.

But according to Romans 10:8-10, it says we're saved by belief and confession with the mouth "made unto salvation", so, which one is it, or, is it something else even? Is one scripture right and the other wrong? Should scripture be pitted against scripture? That's what happens when you cherry pick scripture vs considering ALL pertinent scriptures and totalling up what they ALL say!

 

[GWH]

But according to Romans 10:8-10, it says we're saved by belief and confession with the mouth "made unto salvation", so, which one is it, or, is it something else even? Is one scripture right and the other wrong? Should scripture be pitted against scripture? That's what happens when you cherry pick scripture vs considering ALL pertinent scriptures and totalling up what they ALL say!

Harmonizing what all Scripture teaches about a topic is exactly what needs to happen.
If the result is unclear or debatable, then we will just have to wait until heaven to learn the correct interpretation,
but until then let us live up to what is clear: we should love everyone and hate what is evil. (PHP 3:15-16)

 

[Cameron143]

But according to Romans 10:8-10, it says we're saved by belief and confession with the mouth "made unto salvation", so, which one is it, or, is it something else even? Is one scripture right and the other wrong? Should scripture be pitted against scripture? That's what happens when you cherry pick scripture vs considering ALL pertinent scriptures and totalling up what they ALL say!

All scripture agrees with all other scripture. Men's understanding, however, does not. The scriptures you quote in Romans 10 seem to suggest that it is through our actions that we bring about our salvation. But if this is so, that would directly contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. So we have to find a way to reconcile the difference. So let's try. If we say that the verses in Romans 10 mean we must do something to be saved, this will always contradict salvation by grace posited in Ephesians 2. If we say that the verses in Romans 10 are the result of salvation and not its cause, we can reconcile the verses.

Perhaps you have a way to reconcile the verses another way. If so, I would be most interested to hear it.

 

[DJT_47]

All scripture agrees with all other scripture. Men's understanding, however, does not. The scriptures you quote in Romans 10 seem to suggest that it is through our actions that we bring about our salvation. But if this is so, that would directly contradict Ephesians 2:8-9. So we have to find a way to reconcile the difference. So let's try. If we say that the verses in Romans 10 mean we must do something to be saved, this will always contradict salvation by grace posited in Ephesians 2. If we say that the verses in Romans 10 are the result of salvation and not its cause, we can reconcile the verses.

Perhaps you have a way to reconcile the verses another way. If so, I would be most interested to hear it.

It's very clear, without me citing and listing each scripture, that when you consider ALL scriptures relative to the topic of salvation that there are a few things that in combination are stated.
1. Belief and faith
2. Verbal acknowledgement or confession of your belief (re the Ethiopian eunuch)
3. Repentance
4. Baptism, water immersion

Not one, not, two, but all the above. They are ALL there and are stated as being a necessary part of salvation. However, people go to great and sometimes elaborate lengths and explanations, in any attempt to discredit the list. That's too bad but true, and it's predicated upon preconceived notions that they refuse to abandon. I'll leave it at that. Goodbye

 

[GWH]

It's very clear, without me citing and listing each scripture, that when you consider ALL scriptures relative to the topic of salvation that there are a few things that in combination are stated.
1. Belief and faith
2. Verbal acknowledgement or confession of your belief (re the Ethiopian eunuch)
3. Repentance
4. Baptism, water immersion

Not one, not, two, but all the above. They are ALL there and are stated as being a necessary part of salvation. However, people go to great and sometimes elaborate lengths and explanations, in any attempt to discredit the list. That's too bad but true, and it's predicated upon preconceived notions that they refuse to abandon. I'll leave it at that. Goodbye

All relevant Scripture is NOT there, probably because of your bias,
so we might as well wait until heaven to continue this discussion,
but I bet you a million heavenly dimes that people will be in heaven
who were not water baptized.

 

[Cameron143]

It's very clear, without me citing and listing each scripture, that when you consider ALL scriptures relative to the topic of salvation that there are a few things that in combination are stated.
1. Belief and faith
2. Verbal acknowledgement or confession of your belief (re the Ethiopian eunuch)
3. Repentance
4. Baptism, water immersion

Not one, not, two, but all the above. They are ALL there and are stated as being a necessary part of salvation. However, people go to great and sometimes elaborate lengths and explanations, in any attempt to discredit the list. That's too bad but true, and it's predicated upon preconceived notions that they refuse to abandon. I'll leave it at that. Goodbye

It doesn't bother you that there are verses you can't reconcile?

 

[DJT_47]

All relevant Scripture is NOT there, probably because of your bias,
so we might as well wait until heaven to continue this discussion,
but I bet you a million heavenly dimes that people will be in heaven
who were not water baptized.

Just your words without substance. It's all there and can be found in a few scriptures and supported by many others. Go look.

 

[GWH]

Just your words without substance. It's all there and can be found in a few scriptures and supported by many others. Go look.

IOW, you are afraid you'd lose the bet. :^)

BTW, I was raised as a Baptist, and my only issue was getting up enough courage to walk the aisle,
but we were taught it is a symbolic rite, not a sacrament.

 

[DJT_47]

IOW, you are afraid you'd lose the bet. :^)

BTW, I was raised as a Baptist, and my only issue was getting up enough courage to walk the aisle,
but we were taught it is a symbolic rite, not a sacrament.

You were taught wrong. Peter says Baptism saves us.

 

[GWH]

You were taught wrong. Peter says Baptism saves us.

Peter says:

1. We have an inheritance in heaven through faith, not baptism (1PT 1:4-5)
2. Your faith, not baptism, will result in glory when Christ is revealed (1PT 1:7)
3. You are receiving the end result of your faith, not baptism, salvation (1PT 1:9)
4. You have been born again through the word of God, not baptism (1PT 1:23)
5. Now to you who believe, not are baptized, this stone is precious (1PT 2:7)
6. By his wounds, not by baptism, you have been healed. (1PT 2:23)
7. The water of Noah's flood symbolizes baptism that now saves you--
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1PT 3:21-22)

 

[DJT_47]

Peter says:

1. We have an inheritance in heaven through faith, not baptism (1PT 1:4-5)
2. Your faith, not baptism, will result in glory when Christ is revealed (1PT 1:7)
3. You are receiving the end result of your faith, not baptism, salvation (1PT 1:9)
4. You have been born again through the word of God, not baptism (1PT 1:23)
5. Now to you who believe, not are baptized, this stone is precious (1PT 2:7)
6. By his wounds, not by baptism, you have been healed. (1PT 2:23)
7. The water of Noah's flood symbolizes baptism that now saves you--
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1PT 3:21-22)

Baptism saves us.

 

[GWH]

Baptism saves us.

God saves those who repent of atheism and accept Jesus as Lord, whereupon the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, who will want to profess his/her faith by means of being immersed in water as a way of portraying Christ's death and resurrection.

 

[mailmandan]

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20.

 

[DJT_47]

God saves those who repent of atheism and accept Jesus as Lord, whereupon the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, who will want to profess his/her faith by means of being immersed in water as a way of portraying Christ's death and resurrection.

The why and the how are secondary to the basic statement. All one needs to know is what the words clearly say, and they say, in this instance, that baptism doth now save us. You and others here on these forums, as I stated, go to great lengths trying constantly to explain away words duch as these, claiming the writer didn't really mean what he said, even the Lord's own words in Mark 16:15-16, to the extent of foolishness, but you really can't. Keep in mind, these were and are simple words that meant something to the very simple people of that era, who couldn't and didn't go to great lengths in trying to understand or decipher what was being told or written to them, analyzing each and every word preached. They are straight forward, simple words that were immediately understood as meaning exactly what they say, and were relied upon accordingly, with no deep, hidden, esoteric meaning as you and others try to imply. Keep trying to disprove the obvious, I'll simply believe what was written and react accidentally, assimilating them into my belief system. Enough said. Believe what you like. Goodbye.

 

[mailmandan]

This is what happens when folks cherry pick only what they want to hear from their pet verses then ignore the rest. These folks need to read the entire verse and also read these verses in context along with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. Instead, these folks are only concerned with accommodating their biased church doctrine at all costs. These folks would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

There are numerous verses in scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (modifications" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; 3:6 14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..)

1n 1 Corinthians 1:18, we read - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. ✝️

 

[DJT_47]

This is what happens when folks cherry pick only what they want to hear from their pet verses then ignore the rest. These folks need to read the entire verse and also read these verses in context along with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. Instead, these folks are only concerned with accommodating their biased church doctrine at all costs. These folks would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

There are numerous verses in scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (modifications" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 4:4; 10:4; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 9: 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; 3:6 14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:4, 13 etc..)

1n 1 Corinthians 1:18, we read - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. ✝️

Blah blah blah

 

[GWH]

The why and the how are secondary to the basic statement. All one needs to know is what the words clearly say, and they say, in this instance, that baptism doth now save us. You and others here on these forums, as I stated, go to great lengths trying constantly to explain away words duch as these, claiming the writer didn't really mean what he said, even the Lord's own words in Mark 16:15-16, to the extent of foolishness, but you really can't. Keep in mind, these were and are simple words that meant something to the very simple people of that era, who couldn't and didn't go to great lengths in trying to understand or decipher what was being told or written to them, analyzing each and every word preached. They are straight forward, simple words that were immediately understood as meaning exactly what they say, and were relied upon accordingly, with no deep, hidden, esoteric meaning as you and others try to imply. Keep trying to disprove the obvious, I'll simply believe what was written and react accidentally, assimilating them into my belief system. Enough said. Believe what you like. Goodbye.

You cite only one of the seven statements in 1PT:

7. The water of Noah's flood symbolizes baptism that now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body
but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1PT 3:21-22)

And even that statement "baptism doth now save us" does not include the contextual qualifiers: "The water of Noah's flood
symbolizes baptism... what now saves you is not the removal of dirt from the body [by water] but the pledge of a clear conscience
toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

 

[DJT_47]

You cite only one of the seven statements in 1PT:

7. The water of Noah's flood symbolizes baptism that now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the body
but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1PT 3:21-22)

And even that statement "baptism doth now save us" does not include the contextual qualifiers: "The water of Noah's flood
symbolizes baptism... what now saves you is not the removal of dirt from the body [by water] but the pledge of a clear conscience
toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."[/QUOTE


15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

IS THIS CLEARER FOR YOU?

 

[GWH]

It is clearer to me than to you that Peter did not say "he that believeth but is not baptized shall be damned".