What Is A Sinful Nature

[QuestionTime]

Greetings,

What exactly is this "sinful nature" that people believe mankind has inherited? Truly, the words "sinful nature" do not appear in most Bibles except for the NIV, and that same Greek word is translated as flesh when used to describe Jesus.

So the correct term is actually "flesh." Now then, is the "flesh" to blame for mankind being rebels against God?

There is a good scripture verse here:

Heb 2:
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now why are men in bondage to sin? Because of fear of death. They sin to comfort themselves out of fear of God's wrath against them. They also sin to comfort themselves due to worries about their necessities being cared for. If they trusted Christ for all of their necessities, and trusted Christ that they wouldn't burn in Hell, then they would no longer fear death and would no longer be in bondage to sin, correct? So then flesh is not to blame for our bondage to sin, but rather fear of death.

1 John 4:18-20
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
KJV

In my own walk of late I have noticed one thing, that the more I focus on Christ and His love for me, the more I am changed from sin to holiness. Because I am not focused on all of the negative things around me, I am not sinning to comfort myself as much. Does this mean that my flesh is dying? Has my flesh somehow changed? Nope, I don't think it's changed at all, but my fear of death and distrust for God seems to be decreasing.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
KJV

It's interesting that St. John says that a man who has this hope in him "purifies himself." In the scripture below, Paul tells us that because of God's promises we are able to "cleanse ourselves."

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
KJV

I found this online:

II. "Flesh" and one's spiritual condition
A. "Flesh" is not equivalent to spiritual depravity.
B. "Flesh" does not refer to spiritual conditon.
C. "Flesh" is not inherent, intrinsic, or innate within man.
D. "Flesh" is not nascent. We are not born with the "flesh."
E. "Flesh" is not a generative source of evil within the individual.
F. "Flesh" is not to be equated with satan.
G. "Flesh" does not negate the completeness of spiritual regeneration.
H. "Flesh" is not substantive or partitive; "hunk of evil; dirty old man."

This article seems to say that our flesh is actually learned patterns of behavior mankind has developed in order to meet their own needs. Therefore, mankind through fear came into bondage and developed patterns of behavior that are termed: "flesh." If we walk in the Spirit, we no longer adhere to our old learned patterns of behavior. Walking in the Spirit then is actually just trusting God. Therefore, God doesn't physically change people from sinners to righteous men, but men change themselves by faith in Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Therefore, God doesn't physically change people from sinners to righteous men, but men change themselves by faith in Christ.

Thoughts?

*Waiting for the fallout* lol

 

[Lauren]

Therefore, God doesn't physically change people from sinners to righteous men, but men change themselves by faith in Christ.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

A supernatural occurence, in an instant, a new awareness of and aversion to sinful things.

 

[karuna]

Concerning the quote from Hebrews:

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

The parallel between the (violent yet profitable) death of Jesus and the believer's death is all over the book:

So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.

The believers had already endured some persecution (10:32-39) and a major question was the fate of those who hadn't endured (6:1-12). The author is suggesting that martyrdom, the fear of which could make some apostatize, could actually be seen as the successful end of a race. I believe that he is constantly addressing the reader's very specific fears about immediate death because of their identity in Christ.

I don't think he's setting out a general theory of bondage. I don't think he's teaching his audience to accept death in general, as death in this book always seems connected to persecution. I don't see any advice on accepting a death which isn't a martyrdom.

This article seems to say that our flesh is actually learned patterns of behavior mankind has developed in order to meet their own needs. Therefore, mankind through fear came into bondage and developed patterns of behavior that are termed: "flesh."

I would argue, though, that this "flesh" doesn't actually meet our needs. If these behaviors are responses to the fear of death, then at best they are maladaptive. The behaviors usually attributed to (and not equated with) flesh tend to keep us intoxicated, beyond the reach of a true contemplation of death. If they do work, it's only because they keep us scattered until we're too dead to suffer fear of death.

I don't think the idea is without merit, though, that the fear of death motivates the majority of our behaviors. I just don't think it's worthwhile to reinterpret the traditional understanding of why something is wrong with us on the most basic level. In Romans we read:

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. <...> For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Even if we do not interpret literally the inheritance of sin through Adam, the message is relatively clear - we are congenitally flawed before any personal failure.

Now, we can make our situation worse by responding poorly to it, by, say, drinking ourselves into a stupor because we don't want to think about our own mortality, but before this we are at the very least imperfect.

 

[ShelleBelle76]

I heard a statement last night that I thought was great. If I am told that I have cancer, I will not be so concerned about understanding how the cancer originated as I will be in finding out how to cure it.

I generally accept that we are all imperfect as a result of the sin of Adam, and the resulting seperation from God. And that fleshly desires are a result of that imperfection or carnality, simply as a way we seek to fullfill ourselves in the absence of the Holy Spirit. And salvation is the only hope we have to bridge that gap, in order to defeat our sinful nature and ultimately live in righteousness. I believe we have to die to our flesh as we come alive in God and the more we rely on Him to defeat sin, the less we will battle it. I think some people can turn from sin and never look back, while others battle it before they finally succeed fully. It all depends on how willing we are to let go of the flesh and live in the spirit.

Thus, why it's beneficial to focus less on the cause and more on the cure.

 

[mpaper345]

By Adam and Eve's sin,they gave mankind a choice.

All people will be born not knowing God,but will make that choice later on in lfe,which means all people will sin before they come to God.

Since mankind has a choice,they have to get rid of their choice to sin,and be right with God,which they will sin before they come to God,because mankind is born not knowing God,until later on in life.

If Adam and Eve never sinned,their children would be born knowing God,but since they sinned people are born not knowing God,until later in life.

Matt

 

[calvina]

Greetings,

What exactly is this "sinful nature" that people believe mankind has inherited? Truly, the words "sinful nature" do not appear in most Bibles except for the NIV, and that same Greek word is translated as flesh when used to describe Jesus.

So the correct term is actually "flesh." Now then, is the "flesh" to blame for mankind being rebels against God?

There is a good scripture verse here:

Heb 2:
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now why are men in bondage to sin? Because of fear of death. They sin to comfort themselves out of fear of God's wrath against them. They also sin to comfort themselves due to worries about their necessities being cared for. If they trusted Christ for all of their necessities, and trusted Christ that they wouldn't burn in Hell, then they would no longer fear death and would no longer be in bondage to sin, correct? So then flesh is not to blame for our bondage to sin, but rather fear of death.

1 John 4:18-20
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
KJV

In my own walk of late I have noticed one thing, that the more I focus on Christ and His love for me, the more I am changed from sin to holiness. Because I am not focused on all of the negative things around me, I am not sinning to comfort myself as much. Does this mean that my flesh is dying? Has my flesh somehow changed? Nope, I don't think it's changed at all, but my fear of death and distrust for God seems to be decreasing.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
KJV

It's interesting that St. John says that a man who has this hope in him "purifies himself." In the scripture below, Paul tells us that because of God's promises we are able to "cleanse ourselves."

2 Cor 7:1
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
KJV

I found this online:

II. "Flesh" and one's spiritual condition
A. "Flesh" is not equivalent to spiritual depravity.
B. "Flesh" does not refer to spiritual conditon.
C. "Flesh" is not inherent, intrinsic, or innate within man.
D. "Flesh" is not nascent. We are not born with the "flesh."
E. "Flesh" is not a generative source of evil within the individual.
F. "Flesh" is not to be equated with satan.
G. "Flesh" does not negate the completeness of spiritual regeneration.
H. "Flesh" is not substantive or partitive; "hunk of evil; dirty old man."

This article seems to say that our flesh is actually learned patterns of behavior mankind has developed in order to meet their own needs. Therefore, mankind through fear came into bondage and developed patterns of behavior that are termed: "flesh." If we walk in the Spirit, we no longer adhere to our old learned patterns of behavior. Walking in the Spirit then is actually just trusting God. Therefore, God doesn't physically change people from sinners to righteous men, but men change themselves by faith in Christ.

Thoughts?

Great Message from the LORD...

 

[mpaper345]

The Bible says that there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.
The flesh is always sinful,no matter how a person acts,which Paul testified when he said,when he does good he finds that evil is still present with him.
The flesh still wants to sin,even when you are led of the Spirit,but Paul said,it is no more him that sins,but the sin that is in his flesh,so with the flesh he will serve sin,but with his mind he will serve God.

 

[QuestionTime]

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

A supernatural occurence, in an instant, a new awareness of and aversion to sinful things.

Sorry Lauren, I was waayyy too tired to be starting threads when I created this one. I understand that God gives us a new heart and that we don't create a new heart within ourselves (I know this from my own experience of failure at trying).

With that aside however, what is a sinful nature? Is it nothing more than our hearts focused on worldly things, and then God coming along and fixing our hearts upon Him? I really am beginning to question exactly what this sinful nature consists of. If this sinful nature is nothing more than our hearts focused on worldly things and if salvation is nothing more than God focusing our hearts upon Him, then what is this horrible nature we are all said to have?

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

I would argue, though, that this "flesh" doesn't actually meet our needs. If these behaviors are responses to the fear of death, then at best they are maladaptive. The behaviors usually attributed to (and not equated with) flesh tend to keep us intoxicated, beyond the reach of a true contemplation of death. If they do work, it's only because they keep us scattered until we're too dead to suffer fear of death.

I don't think the idea is without merit, though, that the fear of death motivates the majority of our behaviors. I just don't think it's worthwhile to reinterpret the traditional understanding of why something is wrong with us on the most basic level. In Romans we read:

Greetings Karuna,

Your answers are always very intelligently written.

I don't mean to say that these responses of sinful men are exclusively due to the fear of death. Clearly the physical necessities of human life also keep the eye on the creature rather than the creator (as people need to meet their own needs). But what I was attempting to do in this thread, was to determine if this concept of "man's affections being on earthly things" is exactly that corruption that all men are said to have inherited from Adam.

Is this all that the sinful nature consists of? What of this old man the Bible speaks of? Is this old man one and the same as the sinful nature?

Now, if that is all that the sinful nature consists of, then it is neither impossible or improbable, that man develops these habits - eyes on the things of earth - as he grows, rather than being born with them. If there is no mystical "sinful nature" that is within us other than a wrong focus of our desires, then the idea that we inherited sin at birth loses strength. If man corrupts his own way - as the Bible clearly states - rather than being corrupt from birth, then neither God or Adam can be held guilty for our actions, only ourselves.

Gen 6:12
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (All flesh causatively ruined their way).
KJV

OT:7843
shachath (shaw-khath'); a primitive root; to decay, i.e. (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively):

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

I heard a statement last night that I thought was great. If I am told that I have cancer, I will not be so concerned about understanding how the cancer originated as I will be in finding out how to cure it.

I generally accept that we are all imperfect as a result of the sin of Adam, and the resulting seperation from God. And that fleshly desires are a result of that imperfection or carnality, simply as a way we seek to fullfill ourselves in the absence of the Holy Spirit. And salvation is the only hope we have to bridge that gap, in order to defeat our sinful nature and ultimately live in righteousness. I believe we have to die to our flesh as we come alive in God and the more we rely on Him to defeat sin, the less we will battle it. I think some people can turn from sin and never look back, while others battle it before they finally succeed fully. It all depends on how willing we are to let go of the flesh and live in the spirit.

Thus, why it's beneficial to focus less on the cause and more on the cure.

The last line is very well written and sounds like something I would say. LOL! I didn't bring this up though Shelle, God showed me that I hated Him, and He showed me that I blamed Him for causing myself and other people - who have hurt me - to be born in sin. I can't help but be angry with God if I feel I was born with "AIDS," and the popular doctrine of our day teaches that God allowed me to be inflicted with AIDS - through Adam - rather than me contracting it myself.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

A supernatural occurence, in an instant, a new awareness of and aversion to sinful things.

Sorry Lauren, I was waayyy too tired to be starting threads when I created this one. I understand that God gives us a new heart and that we don't create a new heart within ourselves (I know this from my own experience of failure at trying).

Actually Lauren... I'm thinking about this more now... The Bible both commands us to purify ourselves, and it also promises us that God will purify. The Bible tells us to make ourselves a new heart, and the Bible says that God will give us one.

Ezek 18:31
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV

Hmm...

 

[ShelleBelle76]

With that aside however, what is a sinful nature? Is it nothing more than our hearts focused on worldly things, and then God coming along and fixing our hearts upon Him? I really am beginning to question exactly what this sinful nature consists of. If this sinful nature is nothing more than our hearts focused on worldly things and if salvation is nothing more than God focusing our hearts upon Him, then what is this horrible nature we are all said to have?

Quest

Imagine everything we do, the essence of who who are existing in one of two relms, the carnal (the flesh) or the spiritual. Before we come to Christ, we are not led spiritually and thus we act carnally, following the desires of the flesh and filling ourselves with the things that bring us carnal pleasure. We sin because those are the means to our end desires. I believe this is the result of the seperation of mankind from God as a result of the original sin. Being seperated from God, we no longer automatically have the Holy Spirit with us an are at the mercy of our flesh and temptation of darkness.

However, when we receive salvation, we gain a new spiritual element (The Holy Spirit) that enables us to live righteously. I don't think this happens immediately although it obviously can. As we begin to come alive spiritually, we begin to die to the flesh (carnally). When the Holy Spirit infiltrates your heart, there is a change that occurs in your heart and your mind that empowers you to reject sin. That's not to say we will never be tempted by sin, but I think the Holy Spirit gives you the power overcome that temptation every time, if you are so willing. Obviously we are flesh and few of us live perfectly in Christ, so there will always be times when our flesh is weak, but I believe that during those times, if we turn more heavily to the Spirit within us, we can and will overcome.

As you know... I know a little bit of nothing and this is just the conclusion I have come to through my study of salvation in The Word.

 

[QuestionTime]

Imagine everything we do, the essence of who who are existing in one of two relms, the carnal (the flesh) or the spiritual. Before we come to Christ, we are not led spiritually and thus we act carnally, following the desires of the flesh and filling ourselves with the things that bring us carnal pleasure. We sin because those are the means to our end desires. I believe this is the result of the seperation of mankind from God as a result of the original sin. Being seperated from God, we no longer automatically have the Holy Spirit with us an are at the mercy of our flesh and temptation of darkness.

However, when we receive salvation, we gain a new spiritual element (The Holy Spirit) that enables us to live righteously. I don't think this happens immediately although it obviously can. As we begin to come alive spiritually, we begin to die to the flesh (carnally). When the Holy Spirit infiltrates your heart, there is a change that occurs in your heart and your mind that empowers you to reject sin. That's not to say we will never be tempted by sin, but I think the Holy Spirit gives you the power overcome that temptation every time, if you are so willing. Obviously we are flesh and few of us live perfectly in Christ, so there will always be times when our flesh is weak, but I believe that during those times, if we turn more heavily to the Spirit within us, we can and will overcome.

As you know... I know a little bit of nothing and this is just the conclusion I have come to through my study of salvation in The Word.

Hey,

This is exactly what I am saying, but the one thing that I question is whether we were born seeking our own, or if we learned to seek our own as we grew. I thought I knew, but now I'm not so sure.

Quest

 

[ShelleBelle76]

Hey,

This is exactly what I am saying, but the one thing that I question is whether we were born seeking our own, or if we learned to seek our own as we grew. I thought I knew, but now I'm not so sure.

Quest

A child doesn't learn to lie. They lie at a very young age because they think it is a way to get out of trouble (a means to an end desire). So I would say we are born sinners yes, because we are seperated from God. But it is not God's fault we are seperated from him and thus must live according to the flesh until we find salvation through Him.

Although we as individuals do not choose to be born carnal and in sin, because of the sin of mankind (Adam), that is our curse. But though we are cursed because of Adam's sin, one could blame and be angry with God for imparting that curse, because it seems unfair to us. However, God fixed that when He sent sent His son to offer us a way of salvation, so in essence though He imparted the curse as a punishment to mankind, He also cured the curse. But we must willingly turn to Him for that cure!

 

[loveschild]

The curse we are naturally evil. The book says we can't even control our evil mouths. Its the blood of Jesus that sets us free. It is not by us and what we do that helps us be good. Its the blood. Because of the blood then we can start knowing how to be good because the Holy Spirit lives inside of us.

 

[QuestionTime]

Ezekiel 18:31 (King James Version)

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 36:25-26 (King James Version)

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Looking at these two verses above, we see both what God will do, and what man must do. I found an excellent lecture by Charles Finney on this very topic called: "Sinners Bound To Change Their Own Hearts." I haven't finished reading the lecture yet, but this is what I conclude thus far:

There is only one way by which both of these scriptures can walk hand in hand. Either God does everything, we do everything or there is a combination of both working together. So my conclusion right now, is that God shows us that He is good. He shows us how much better He is than for us to live our own way and walk after our own pursuits. By teaching us about His goodness He gives us a new heart, because we see that choosing Him would be better.

On our end is a choice as to where we direct our affections. We are either born with or develop a habit of placing our affections on our own pursuits. For one reason or another all of men's affections are focused each upon their own pursuit of happiness. Now, after God shows us that He is good, we make a choice whether or not to place our affections upon Him. If perfectly holy Adam can place his affections on sinful things, then perfectly sinful you and I can place our affections on the good things of God.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

There is only one way by which both of these scriptures can walk hand in hand. Either God does everything, we do everything or there is a combination of both working together. So my conclusion right now, is that God shows us that He is good. He shows us how much better He is than for us to live our own way and walk after our own pursuits. By teaching us about His goodness He gives us a new heart, because we see that choosing Him would be better.

On our end is a choice as to where we direct our affections. We are either born with or develop a habit of placing our affections on our own pursuits. For one reason or another all of men's affections are focused each upon their own pursuit of happiness. Now, after God shows us that He is good, we make a choice whether or not to place our affections upon Him. If perfectly holy Adam can place his affections on sinful things, then perfectly sinful you and I can place our affections on the good things of God.

Now, some people will automatically become frightened by my statement above, and I will surely be labeled an heretic by some, but that's okay with me. Now, the reason they will be frightened, is because they believe - if man can choose to place his affections upon God - that man is taking all of the credit for salvation. But this is simply not true. We were enemies of God because of our sins. God needed to first pardon our sins in order to allow us back into His loving arms, and this was done by Christ upon the cross. There is no doubt that even in the Old Testament, that men were able to direct their hearts toward God's statutes. But perhaps - because of the absence of perfect love shown by God to men in the Old Testament - Christ dying for us though we hated Him is a perfect love - they were not able to love God perfectly. But now that we have experienced perfect love, we are able to choose to love God perfectly. (This last idea is a work in progress)

Quest

 

[Consumed]

from the time we are born we naturally do the things we shouldn't, all about self will from the start, a child needs to be taught right from wrong cause everything seems right no matter what, if the child's emotions are not set on good foundations it manifests itself even more as we mature stealing from us the life God so desires us to have, killing our hopes and aspirations and destroying relationships along the way. I feel thats what Jesus meant when He said if one offends one of these little ones(teaches them not Gods ways) better a millstone be hung around his neck and be cast in the sea" for we charter their course in life by teaching them Gods way or setting them on the path of destruction, just a thought,