What is Scripture?

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Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
5,197
2,712
113
#1
Scripture is written by “inspiration of God.”

From the perspective of those people in Biblical times, the only scripture they had was the Old Testament. When the term scripture is used it’s in reference to something written in the Old Testament every time.

The Old Testament never refers to the New Testament as scripture (holy writ) and the New Testament never calls itself scripture at any point.

That being said, 2 Peter 3:16 refers to Paul’s writings explicitly as “epistles” which are just letters. While not referring to them as scriptures. The “other scriptures” are Old Testament writings.

2 Peter 3:16 KJV
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Once you understand that, when you read 2 Timothy 3:16,17 it’s clearer what scripture actually is:

2 Tim. 3:15,16 KJV
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When the New Testament writers wrote something about doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness they didn’t just make something up and call it scripture. They were using Old Testament literature, the holy scriptures, as the basis for everything they said.

The Bereans searched the Old Testament holy scriptures to see what Paul said was true because everything Paul said was taken from the scriptures (Old Testament) to make doctrine from.

Acts 17:11 KJV
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

A eunuch from Ethiopia was riding along reading Isaiah. Philip caught up to the eunuch and using the scripture in Isaiah Philip taught him about Jesus:

Acts 8:28,32,35 KJV
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

There are nearly 300 direct quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament. Sometimes the quote is literal word-for-word and sometimes the quote is paraphrased or altered in some way.

Literal quote:
Matthew 21:42 KJV
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Psalm 118:22,23 KJV
22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Paraphrased quote:
1 Timothy 5:18 KJV
18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Luke 10:7 KJV
7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

Leviticus 19:13 KJV
13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Deuteronomy 24:14,15 KJV
14Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: 15At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Nowadays, Christians revere the New Testament as scripture, but in the early church there is no Biblical evidence Paul’s epistles were recognized as scripture.
 

Jesusfollower

Active member
Oct 21, 2021
200
98
28
near Montreal, quebec
#2
Scripture is written by “inspiration of God.”

From the perspective of those people in Biblical times, the only scripture they had was the Old Testament. When the term scripture is used it’s in reference to something written in the Old Testament every time.

The Old Testament never refers to the New Testament as scripture (holy writ) and the New Testament never calls itself scripture at any point.

That being said, 2 Peter 3:16 refers to Paul’s writings explicitly as “epistles” which are just letters. While not referring to them as scriptures. The “other scriptures” are Old Testament writings.

2 Peter 3:16 KJV
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Once you understand that, when you read 2 Timothy 3:16,17 it’s clearer what scripture actually is:

2 Tim. 3:15,16 KJV
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When the New Testament writers wrote something about doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness they didn’t just make something up and call it scripture. They were using Old Testament literature, the holy scriptures, as the basis for everything they said.

The Bereans searched the Old Testament holy scriptures to see what Paul said was true because everything Paul said was taken from the scriptures (Old Testament) to make doctrine from.

Acts 17:11 KJV
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

A eunuch from Ethiopia was riding along reading Isaiah. Philip caught up to the eunuch and using the scripture in Isaiah Philip taught him about Jesus:

Acts 8:28,32,35 KJV
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

There are nearly 300 direct quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament. Sometimes the quote is literal word-for-word and sometimes the quote is paraphrased or altered in some way.

Literal quote:
Matthew 21:42 KJV
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Psalm 118:22,23 KJV
22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Paraphrased quote:
1 Timothy 5:18 KJV
18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Luke 10:7 KJV
7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

Leviticus 19:13 KJV
13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Deuteronomy 24:14,15 KJV
14Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: 15At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Nowadays, Christians revere the New Testament as scripture, but in the early church there is no Biblical evidence Paul’s epistles were recognized as scripture.
I agree with your last and very important statement ""Nowadays, Christians revere the New Testament as scripture, but in the early church there is no Biblical evidence Paul’s epistles were recognized as scripture"" I totally agree there. Personally , I take as scripture in the new testament; matthew, John (my favorite) and mark, also revelations, and some letters from the original 12, the rest, I have doubts as it contradicts the message of Jesus son of GOD in a big big way.

Blessings

JF
 

Polar

Active member
May 8, 2022
380
68
28
#3
Actually, we do have Peter quoting Paul and referring to what Paul says in a letter as scripture.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. II Peter 3: 15-16

Peter used the Greek word graphe when he spoke of Paul's letters. That particular word is used 51 time in the NT and it refers to the OT in every other occurrence. As that is the case, Peter is giving the same authoritative weight given to the OT, when speaking of Paul's letters.

There are a couple of other instances that show that the NT, at that time circulating as letters, were received and understood as being inspired. In fact, at one point Paul says that he is giving an opinion rather than something he believes is from God. (I Cor. 7:25)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,376
11,416
113
#4
Christ gives us a working definition of 'scripture' in John 5:39 — it's those inspired ((per 2 Timothy 3:16)) writings that testify of Him.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,279
9,301
113
#5
Nowadays, Christians revere the New Testament as scripture, but in the early church there is no Biblical evidence Paul’s epistles were recognized as scripture.
And yet you referred to 2 Peter 3:16 and missed its significance. If that isn't biblical evidence -- written by divine inspiration -- then nothing is biblical evidence. Paul's epistles are over half of the NT.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
5,197
2,712
113
#6
Actually, we do have Peter quoting Paul and referring to what Paul says in a letter as scripture.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. II Peter 3: 15-16
Paul’s writings are referred to as epistles or letters, not scripture.

2 Peter 3:16
New International Version
He writes the same way in all his letters…

New Living Translation
speaking of these things in all of his letters…

English Standard Version
as he does in all his letters…

Berean Study Bible
He writes this way in all his letters…

Berean Literal Bible
as also in all the letters…

Peter used the Greek word graphe when he spoke of Paul's letters.
That’s false.

When Peter spoke of Paul’s letters he used the below word epistolē:

G1992 Strong’s

ἐπιστολή

epistolē

ep-is-tol-ay'

From G1989; a written message: - ”epistle”, letter.

Total KJV occurrences: 24

The word for scripture is graphē and it refers to Old Testament writings.

There are a couple of other instances that show that the NT, at that time circulating as letters, were received and understood as being inspired. In fact, at one point Paul says that he is giving an opinion rather than something he believes is from God. (I Cor. 7:25)
He says something similar in 1 Corinthians 7:12.

In any case, your last point doesn’t supplement your apparent position that the early church regarded the New Testament letters as scripture.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
5,197
2,712
113
#7
And yet you referred to 2 Peter 3:16 and missed its significance. If that isn't biblical evidence -- written by divine inspiration -- then nothing is biblical evidence. Paul's epistles are over half of the NT.
It’s evidence that Paul’s letters were referred to just that: letters. What evidence are you seeing?

Are you one of those people who sees the word “other” and builds and entire doctrine off of it? There isn’t any New Testament or Old Testament support that the early church or even Paul himself thought his letters were scripture. I’m sorry, that’s just the truth. The truth must prevail even when we don’t like it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,279
9,301
113
#8
Paul’s writings are referred to as epistles or letters, not scripture.
This is laughable. Those epistles are a part of the Bible, so have you removed over half of your New Testament?
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
5,197
2,712
113
#10
Christ gives us a working definition of 'scripture' in John 5:39 — it's those inspired ((per 2 Timothy 3:16)) writings that testify of Him.
I agree. Those Old Testament scriptures are what Christ was referring to. (y)
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
5,197
2,712
113
#11
This is laughable. Those epistles are a part of the Bible, so have you removed over half of your New Testament?
Keep laughing. The epistles were gathered together and put into a book we call the Bible. This thread is mostly about how the early church viewed what scriptures are and it was definitely the Old Testament.

Where do you see anything definitive that Paul’s letters are directly called scripture?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,376
11,416
113
#13
2 Peter 3:16 KJV
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Why does Peter say "the other scriptures" instead of just "scripture"?

What does he mean by "other"?
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
5,197
2,712
113
#14
Why does Peter say "the other scriptures" instead of just "scripture"?

What does he mean by "other"?
By other he means all of the scriptures. He didn’t say the other letters. Paul’s letters aren’t referred to as scriptures anywhere so I don’t think that’s good enough to lump Paul’s letters into the scripture category.

I see what you’re saying. You’re trying to deduce or infer based off of one word that Peter said Paul’s letters are scriptures. Honestly that really isn’t clear. There aren’t any other verses that even hint at what you’re saying.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,281
2,129
113
#15
Scripture is written by “inspiration of God.”

From the perspective of those people in Biblical times, the only scripture they had was the Old Testament. When the term scripture is used it’s in reference to something written in the Old Testament every time.

The Old Testament never refers to the New Testament as scripture (holy writ) and the New Testament never calls itself scripture at any point.

That being said, 2 Peter 3:16 refers to Paul’s writings explicitly as “epistles” which are just letters. While not referring to them as scriptures. The “other scriptures” are Old Testament writings.

2 Peter 3:16 KJV
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Once you understand that, when you read 2 Timothy 3:16,17 it’s clearer what scripture actually is:

2 Tim. 3:15,16 KJV
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When the New Testament writers wrote something about doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness they didn’t just make something up and call it scripture. They were using Old Testament literature, the holy scriptures, as the basis for everything they said.

The Bereans searched the Old Testament holy scriptures to see what Paul said was true because everything Paul said was taken from the scriptures (Old Testament) to make doctrine from.

Acts 17:11 KJV
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

A eunuch from Ethiopia was riding along reading Isaiah. Philip caught up to the eunuch and using the scripture in Isaiah Philip taught him about Jesus:

Acts 8:28,32,35 KJV
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

There are nearly 300 direct quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament. Sometimes the quote is literal word-for-word and sometimes the quote is paraphrased or altered in some way.

Literal quote:
Matthew 21:42 KJV
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Psalm 118:22,23 KJV
22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Paraphrased quote:
1 Timothy 5:18 KJV
18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Luke 10:7 KJV
7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

Leviticus 19:13 KJV
13Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Deuteronomy 24:14,15 KJV
14Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: 15At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Nowadays, Christians revere the New Testament as scripture, but in the early church there is no Biblical evidence Paul’s epistles were recognized as scripture.
amen that’s how the Bible is designed the old testsment is prophetic , the new testament is fulfillment of those prophecies

the New Testament To us now is scripture like the apostles epistles whether Peter or Paul they were filled with the holy ghost speaking by the spirit more revealed than the scripture in the ot

the New Testament is revelation of what the Old Testament was talking about all along

to us now the gospel has become what the Books of Moses we’re to the Israelites the beginning of thier relationship with God d a record of what God has said and the terms he has set d promises he’s offered


if you ask yourself “ was Jesus speaking by the holy spirit “ we’re the apostles speaking by the spirit ? The. We’re the prophets speaking by the same spirit ? Was the law by the same spirit ?

it’s all scripture To us now is my point to the Jews of those days and even gentile converts the new testsment scriptire hadn’t been written yet they were living it out

so correct when scripture is referenced the new testsment is always referring to the old testsment writings . But for us today it’s all god inspired scripture
 

Polar

Active member
May 8, 2022
380
68
28
#16
Paul’s writings are referred to as epistles or letters, not scripture.

2 Peter 3:16
New International Version
He writes the same way in all his letters…

New Living Translation
speaking of these things in all of his letters…

English Standard Version
as he does in all his letters…

Berean Study Bible
He writes this way in all his letters…

Berean Literal Bible
as also in all the letters…



That’s false.

When Peter spoke of Paul’s letters he used the below word epistolē:

G1992 Strong’s

ἐπιστολή

epistolē

ep-is-tol-ay'

From G1989; a written message: - ”epistle”, letter.

Total KJV occurrences: 24

The word for scripture is graphē and it refers to Old Testament writings.



He says something similar in 1 Corinthians 7:12.

In any case, your last point doesn’t supplement your apparent position that the early church regarded the New Testament letters as scripture.
Even though you are given a scriptural reference that shows your conclusion is incorrect, you remain embedded in your own opinion.

I see this more and more in people who offer scripture they have hand picked to create, as it were, some kind of aha moment that they have to share, and it turns out it is simply their own opinion and they fully intend to reside in it come what may. shrugs
 

Polar

Active member
May 8, 2022
380
68
28
#17
Nowadays, Christians revere the New Testament as scripture, but in the early church there is no Biblical evidence Paul’s epistles were recognized as scripture.
I am wondering, since you believe this, if you think we do not have to take what the NT says as from God then? Actually there is evidence of the letters being accepted as inclusion as being inspired by the Holy Spirit. You are making sweeping conclusions that are actually dangerous to some extent and excluding anything that shows your error.
 

Jesusfollower

Active member
Oct 21, 2021
200
98
28
near Montreal, quebec
#18
I am wondering, since you believe this, if you think we do not have to take what the NT says as from God then? Actually there is evidence of the letters being accepted as inclusion as being inspired by the Holy Spirit. You are making sweeping conclusions that are actually dangerous to some extent and excluding anything that shows your error.
Can ou prove what you just mentioned, references?

thanks,

JF
 

Polar

Active member
May 8, 2022
380
68
28
#19
Can ou prove what you just mentioned, references?

thanks,

JF
How about you and the op explain why you do not think the NT is scripture and then share how you think we should treat the NT since you do not believe it to be scripture.

I know for a fact that no matter what I post, it will just be ignored as has already been shown by the op. Peter refers to what Paul wrote as scripture. HUH? Yeah...look up above. It is in my 1st post. :)
 

Polar

Active member
May 8, 2022
380
68
28
#20
I am currently wondering what denom does not accept the New Testament as scripture? Anybody know?