What Is The Christian Relationship to The Old Testament Covenant?

[Angela53510]

Grace versus the law again!! It is NOT about the law, but about grace. Without grace, we would not be saved! Therefore the law is of no avail!

"But God demonstrates his love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:6

"For by works of the law no human beingwill be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.[h=3]The Righteousness of God Through Faith[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [SUP]22 [/SUP]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:[SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Romans 3:20-23

Red Tent, I grow more and more sorry for you as I read your misguided posts. You are constantly babbling about some imaginary verse you read, with no scriptural support. You quote Psalm 119 over and over. You chastise the members of the group for not knowing the Old Testament. Yet in fact, I doubt you know the Old Testament well, or have read through the New Testament. Please spend a year or two reading the whole Bible, and then come back and tell us what you have found. I guarantee you it will be more than one or two verses from Psalms!! (PS I love the Psalms and read them daily - but I also read the Old and New Testaments, in the original languages, and found Jesus Christ and the amazing grace of God revealed in every page!!)

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, If you do not really read my post carefully, you would only miss judge me. Actually i am acknowledging the Commandments of GOD and giving a simple revelational explanation about them. If you have missed seeing and understanding them, then how can i go on with you?
And to the one who is a babe in CHRIST, love your enemies means the ones of flesh and blood. If you want to continue to behave like a clown, then go ahead for i have been taught by the HOLY SPIRIT that this is one of the fruit of the flesh (self).
i am merely an unworthy servant just doing my duty. If there is any offense, i ask forgiveness and because of LORD JESUS CHRIST may GOD the FATHER bless you and keep you from being tempted and protect you from evil.

 

[AgapeSpiritEyes]

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Grace(no merited favor, favor not merited, merit that comes from THE truth in the full and filled Logos Man, Only Man, Only Son, Jesus Christ)

 

[Wall]

Working at the Law is not contrary to anyone.

But the actual law itself is contrary to all of us because none of us are perfect before it.

Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Don't stop there Grampa. Keep reading Gal.3

GALATIANS 3[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

Christ did not come to destroy the law but came to redeem us from the curse of the law that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through FAITH. BUT...

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You can see what it says Grampa. Before faith came to us we were under the law. Most people claim faith having never gone to the schoolmaster. Sabbath included. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

 

[Wall]

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Grace(no merited favor, favor not merited, merit that comes from THE truth in the full and filled Logos Man, Only Man, Only Son, Jesus Christ)

Its only by His grace we are saved. We are as filthy rags. Couldn't be that dirty if there was no law to follow. Jesus is my Redeemer and He says....

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, Christian relationship to Old Testament is first knowing according to the written Holy Scriptures, CHRIST and the Apostle have fulfilled them and gave it's full meaning to us in accordance to living instructions of the New Testament to the churches, to move on and to abide in them in order to bear fruit and fulfill them for the Kingdom of GOD as the Body of CHRIST.

 

[Grandpa]

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

Now we are starting to have a discussion!!!

Once we come to faith in Christ we see what Christianity is all about. We find out that the 10 commandments are only a tool to bring faith to the faithless.

Why? Why are the 10 commandments for the faithless? Because you have to find out for yourself that you need a saviour. There is only One Saviour. You can either keep the Law perfectly or you need a Saviour. So which is it?

I need a Saviour. That is Christianity. Those that need a Saviour call on Him. IF He enables you to keep the Law after you call on Him then you don't need a Saviour anymore.

I called on Him and He saved me and I still need my Saviour. Why? Why do I need a Saviour. Because He has the Power, and the Kingdom and the Glory. What do I have? His Love and Grace... that's it... and He has told me that His Grace is Sufficient for me. I have faith that His Word is Truth.

So what do I do now? Go back to the Law? So that I might learn faith? O foolish me if I think by starting in the Spirit I might be perfected by the flesh and going back to my works of the law...

Just as I must concede that the 10 commandments are His perfect Law you must concede that we are not perfected by our working at those 10 commandments. Otherwise we must just eventually agree to disagree...


We are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of yourselves; It is the Gift of God.

So what then? Do you have a bigger faith because you continue to work at the Law? Or do I because I no longer work at the Law but trust that His Work has covered my Lack? Isn't that How we are Saved? We trust that He covers our Lack? So what changes after we are saved? Do we become the Saviour or do we still need to be saved every day? Who among us can say keep the law perfectly as I do? Only the Lord Jesus Christ can say that. That's why we follow Him. He is the Master...

Does anyone who follows the Lord throw away anything that is of God? No, of course not. But we must discern what side of salvation we are on. That will tell us which side of the law we are on. The working at it side or the resting from it side... Have you been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ? Then prove it by faith and stop working for your own righteousness. Otherwise your faith says you have no faith and you must accomplish it yourself. My faith says that only the Lord Jesus Christ is my righteousness. I have nowhere else to go nor anywhere I desire to be but abiding in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


You know what's weird that I find almost offensive? The fact that I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to grow His Holy Spirit inside me by faith and don't look back at the Law to work at it in my own strength and all the legalists assume that I am promoting a licentious gospel. What laws does the fruit of the Spirit break???

/rant off/ lol

 

[Wall]

Just as I must concede that the 10 commandments are His perfect Law you must concede that we are not perfected by our working at those 10 commandments. Otherwise we must just eventually agree to disagree...


We are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of yourselves; It is the Gift of God.

So what then? Do you have a bigger faith because you continue to work at the Law?

Im just doin what im told to do in the scriptures

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

I know we are not saved by keeping the law. We are as filthy rags. Its by His grace alone. But you want to make void His 10 commandments. Why? Which of the 10 do you not follow? Do you try to keep at least 8 or nine of them? Do you work not to kill, steal or bear false witness? Is there only one you find grevious? The 4th? Which works of the law do you work at?

PSALM 119 [126] IT IS TIME FOR THEE, LORD, TO WORK: for they have MADE VOID THY LAW. [127] THEREFORE I LOVE THY COMMANDMENTS above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way

 

[Grandpa]

Im just doin what im told to do in the scriptures

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Matthew 11:28-30
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


John 15:3-8
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Galatians 3:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:1-5
[SUP]1[/SUP]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Im just doin what im told to do in the scriptures

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

I know we are not saved by keeping the law. We are as filthy rags. Its by His grace alone. But you want to make void His 10 commandments. Why? Which of the 10 do you not follow? Do you try to keep at least 8 or nine of them? Do you work not to kill, steal or bear false witness? Is there only one you find grevious? The 4th? Which works of the law do you work at?

PSALM 119 [126] IT IS TIME FOR THEE, LORD, TO WORK: for they have MADE VOID THY LAW. [127] THEREFORE I LOVE THY COMMANDMENTS above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way

How can you follow the ten? They do not tell you how. they just tell you do not do this, and do that.

We can't even learn righteousness by following them. because they do not tell us how to do them.

Thats why we follow the law od faith and love, and not the ten. because all the ten are capable of doing is showing us we still need grace.

And there are many more than ten. why do people foolishly just want to stick to ten. then somehow think they are doing Gods will and are righteous? We can't even (if we look deep inside) do these ten.

 

[Wall]

And there are many more than ten. why do people foolishly just want to stick to ten. then somehow think they are doing Gods will and are righteous? We can't even (if we look deep inside) do these ten.

EXOD.34
[28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

DEUT.4
[13] And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EXOD.34
[28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

DEUT.4
[13] And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

lol. and this proves what? he gave ten no one is denying this.

but if you think there are only ten, you are seriously wrong.

just one example.

if one KNOWs to do right, yet does not do it, to him it is sin.

this is not found in the ten, yet condemns anyone who does it.

 

[Wall]

And there are many more than ten. why do people foolishly just want to stick to ten. then somehow think they are doing Gods will and are righteous? We can't even (if we look deep inside) do these ten.

Tell me EG do you look at scripture below as a commandment? Is that why you say theres more than 10. Have you ever counted the number of commandments mention in the new testament

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[WeStand]

Now we are starting to have a discussion!!!

Once we come to faith in Christ we see what Christianity is all about. We find out that the 10 commandments are only a tool to bring faith to the faithless.

Why? Why are the 10 commandments for the faithless? Because you have to find out for yourself that you need a saviour. There is only One Saviour. You can either keep the Law perfectly or you need a Saviour. So which is it?

I need a Saviour. That is Christianity. Those that need a Saviour call on Him. IF He enables you to keep the Law after you call on Him then you don't need a Saviour anymore.

I called on Him and He saved me and I still need my Saviour. Why? Why do I need a Saviour. Because He has the Power, and the Kingdom and the Glory. What do I have? His Love and Grace... that's it... and He has told me that His Grace is Sufficient for me. I have faith that His Word is Truth.

So what do I do now? Go back to the Law? So that I might learn faith? O foolish me if I think by starting in the Spirit I might be perfected by the flesh and going back to my works of the law...

Just as I must concede that the 10 commandments are His perfect Law you must concede that we are not perfected by our working at those 10 commandments. Otherwise we must just eventually agree to disagree...


We are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of yourselves; It is the Gift of God.

So what then? Do you have a bigger faith because you continue to work at the Law? Or do I because I no longer work at the Law but trust that His Work has covered my Lack? Isn't that How we are Saved? We trust that He covers our Lack? So what changes after we are saved? Do we become the Saviour or do we still need to be saved every day? Who among us can say keep the law perfectly as I do? Only the Lord Jesus Christ can say that. That's why we follow Him. He is the Master...

Does anyone who follows the Lord throw away anything that is of God? No, of course not. But we must discern what side of salvation we are on. That will tell us which side of the law we are on. The working at it side or the resting from it side... Have you been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ? Then prove it by faith and stop working for your own righteousness. Otherwise your faith says you have no faith and you must accomplish it yourself. My faith says that only the Lord Jesus Christ is my righteousness. I have nowhere else to go nor anywhere I desire to be but abiding in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


You know what's weird that I find almost offensive? The fact that I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to grow His Holy Spirit inside me by faith and don't look back at the Law to work at it in my own strength and all the legalists assume that I am promoting a licentious gospel. What laws does the fruit of the Spirit break???

/rant off/ lol

I think there is a total misunderstanding about these threads that go on and on about Grace vs Law.

I don't believe that there is anyone that's Christian, that does not accept the fact that our salvation of GOD'S grace/love in and through Christ/Messiah, IS the ONLY way to true salvation. (though I could be assuming again lol)

But the 10 Commandment and the Daily sinners prayer are here to stay.

It IS The Father that established these COMMANDMENTS! (Not suggestions)

These 10 Commanments at the time of Moses were for the Whole House of Israel:

Israel had yet to cross the Jordan River, to encounter strange and unusual nations and cultures, that were now going to be encountered in a new way.

As prior to this time, Israel had been busy with wiping out, the justified killings of man, woman and child, as ordered by GOD, great walled cities of pure evil.

At the same time, acquiring the first land blessings for the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

ALL nations before them were lawless. Why? because every word spoken by Our Father, IS the Law.

And no one yet has been formerly introduced to The God of Israel, only the rumors that they had heard about Him through the utter destruction of these evil and scary cities and the overthrow of the Egyptian Empire.

Israel didn't even realize, that before the crossing the Jordan, that ALL nations were already extremely nervous about meeting them through these rumors, and that attempting to fight them, never even entered into their minds; as even they had heard of these great evil cities and had feared them, and knew the strength of Egypt.

These 10 Commandments are for The WHOLE WORLD and Israel was not only sent forth to deliver them; but also to enforce them.(they even failed amongst themselves in keeping them)

Thus; even more important than that; The Testimony (Torah), the facts to back them up.

Think about it in reality, what is it that was establishing a civil way of living in this flesh

It is not that we are saying that, the law saves as that would be judging an entire prison population.

But respect and obedience of the Law (And were talking about 10 only and the facts to back them up) certainly does help in ones salvation; as it opens up an opportunity for Our Father to bless them.

Is not war all about establishing these laws into nations that are breaking them and laughing about it?

Israel has ALWAYS known; that human sacrifice is absolutely Forbidden by Our Father, and that whenever anyone of His children hear of such atrocities, that they are to promptly act upon exstinguishing it.

St. Patrick is an extremely good example of a single individual with Christ, doing just that, when the rest of the brethren turned him down flat, when he requested their help.

I don't know of any nations where it is OK to break these Commandments; especially stealing, though some many break many of them and others break some of them; it would seem to me in reality; that the ones that obey most of them, are far better off and much more civil.

ALL the records in the Bible are always about Israel facing insurmountable odds against them, and GOD giving them the Victory; or Not; if they were found out of the way.

An in the establishing the law; is it not always the same; a few good men against an army of lawless men, the same way the West was established, and guess what? the lawless ultimately ALWAYS lose.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

This means that the law (of Moses, 10 commandments included) is neither grace, nor truth. That law can only point to truth, and creates a need for grace.

Those who embrace truth rather than the law of Moses are not lawless, because truth is the ultimate law and authority.

 

[Kerry]

It is impossible for man to keep law. If it were possible then Jesus wasted His time and effort.

 

[WeStand]

This means that the law (of Moses, 10 commandments included) is neither grace, nor truth. That law can only point to truth, and creates a need for grace.

Those who embrace truth rather than the law of Moses are not lawless, because truth is the ultimate law and authority.

The Father: The Old Way: The TRUTH spoken & recorded about Christ Messiah; His EVERY Word Law. The Testimony-The Torah.

The Son: The New Way: The Affirmation and Conformation of The TRUTH, His EVERY Word Living and breathing the same Words spoken by The Father and written through Moses & The Prophets and also living and breathing after his depature (physically) through the lives of his Apostles and Disciples.

One cannot have The Son without The Father and one cannot have The Father without The Son.

Or, one cannot have the grace without obedience to the WORD and one cannot have obedience to the WORD without the grace.

For Christ/Messiah IS Our Father's Grace & Mercy, mankinds Greatest Gift.

Christ taught himself; as has been said many many times on here before, by many people, I change not one jot or tittle of the law, but rather to fufill the law; EVERY WORD SPOKEN & RECORDED, by OUR Father.

Christ did away with aprox. 600 statutes and ordinances of the law; but Commandments are a different story, they are for THE WHOLE WORLD.

What sucks about being a flesh human is that, without Christ, the majority of people lie at will, treat people they don't agree with, harshly and judgementally, and self-justify in their own minds, why it is ok to give another person an un-fair deal.

None of this stuff, done with intent, is acceptable to Our Father. Never has been, still isn't, and Never will be.

Thing is though; these people that do these things without the knowledge of Christ/Messiah, are NOT even guilty of anything; because Our Father states that; Sin in ignorance is NO Sin.

That is why the preaching and especially the teachings of Christ/Messiah, are so important; it can attain for anyone, True Salvation, IF practised. Study, Pray and Share.

Because those that refuse to do just this; Are going to be taught just that; on The Lord's Day of Reckoning and Teaching in The Spirit.

What IS the conclusion of the Whole matter? The Bible?

Understanding Family Defilement.

Learning the TRUE heritage of EVERYONES Inner-being.

Knowing exactly why were here.

Knowing exactly what we are to do

And Knowing the Overwhelming promises that Our Father gave to; Whom so ever will.