What is the COVENANT of Daniel 9:27?

LT · Oct 18, 2013

I lean to agree with HeRose on this, but I am not perfectly sure.
The timeline seems to work out perfect for Jesus being the final sacrifice.
Then the related prophecies seem to correlate with the destruction of the temple, which comes after the weeks (ad 70).
I don't see how the 70th week has to be the "great tribulation".

I realize how Dispys rationalize the gap in weeks (church was a hidden mystery), but I feel like that is not exegesis, but instead serious addition is needed to make that fit.

Oddly enough, neither interpretation goes against Scripture, so I am not too concerned.

4enlightment · Oct 18, 2013

watcher2013 said:

Matthew 26:26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

At the end of the blood covenant ceremony the two covenant heads, or primary participants, are now called "friends". And there has now been a new relationship formed that is a union called covenant. This relationship, with this union, is now governed by an attitude towards each other called "loving-kindness". From the Hebrew the word used to express this relationship is"hesed" and the Greek word for this is "agape". This is simply a love relationship that says "I will never leave you or forsake you", "I will always do what is best for you even if it is to my own hurt." We are now in union with one another and we are called "blood-brothers".
BLOOD COVENANT - WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND?

Baruch ata Adonai, Eloheinu Melech ha'olam, hamotzi lechem, min ha aretz." "Blessed are You, O LORD our God, King of the Universe, Who has brought forth bread from the earth."
Breaking of Bread the Jewish Understanding

John 6:31Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

Matthew 7:6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Matthew 15:27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I will get it when I get home. But it means upon completeion of the 69th week.

I would take it literally, Especially since it is quite a stretch to say it is after another 3 1/2 years.

And as I said, we can actually determine the date to restor Jerusalem (the city, Not like many want to do, and the temple, which happened a few years earlier) to the date Jesus entered Jersualem. and we have exactly 69 weeks of years.. If it is his baptism, Jesus came 3 1/2 years to early to fulfill the prophesy, God would not do this.

Yes, he did, but remember something.

1. israel was in sin the whole 69 weeks
2. God never entered the holy of holies during that time. No High priest had died entering the inner sanctum on the day of redemption since long before the babylonian captivity (in other words, the temple was dead LONG before daniels time, and has never seen life since) so Jesus fulfilling the symbol of the temple. would not mean he was stopping sacrifice and offering. There was no sacrifice or offering in Daniels day, So even he would not see this as fulfiment. The ones who truly followed God knew already the priests were in sin, and they never took away sin.
3. Again. The prayer was not so Isreal could be saved eternally, or anyone else. it was David confessing the sins of himself and his people. And praying that God would remember his promise to his people and his Holy City (jerusalem)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. [SUP]18 [/SUP]O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. [SUP]19 [/SUP]O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

Notice the context of daniels prayer.

Shew mercy on YOUR CITY (Jerusalem) and YOUR PEOPLE (Israel)

nothing to do with the church, nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin, Nothing to do with the cross. Everything to do with God restoring his people and his Holy City to the proper place where God had deemed they should be.

Interpreting the context of the ANSWER to davids prayer, to not be in context with daniels prayer and supplication to me would be dangerous. And many have attempted to do this

[qute]which correlates perfectly with what Christ accomplished when he was cut off from the living at the cross. And this also correlates with Isaiah 53.

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isaiah 53:8

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isaiah 53:10
[/QUOTE]

Ah. yet this would not fit the prophesy of daniel 9. Which concerns his people. and has nothing to do with the messiah. The messiah being introduced and cut off in daniel 9 is just a means to point to a specific period of time, two events which would take place.

Isdaniel · Oct 18, 2013

[SUP]
Pslams 40

6 [/SUP]Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, thou knowest.

Hebrew 8

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[h=3]Hebrews 10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 18, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Quite a stretch to say that Christ ministered the new covenant for 3 1/2 years into the 70th week and was then cut off, compared to the idea that there is an almost 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks?

Zone, do happen to have one of those rolls-eyes, shakes-head kind of pictures handy?

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

lol.. Yeah lets start the attacks. Why is it people want to attack people who disagree?

1. The new covenant Jesus entered in was the fulfilment of the davidic covenant.

Again, Daniel was not praying for this. So why use this as context. And not literally what Daniel was praying for?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 18, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Humor is an attack? OK if you say so. (Zone do you still have that picture?)

The new covenant fulfills all covenants with Israel. Daniel was praying about the restoration of his country, and GOD let him know that a natural kingdom was not his ultimate plan (never was), and proceeded to reveal the method by which everlasting righteousness would be ushered in. This certainly would have been confusing and upsetting to Daniel to know that his nation would be restored for the purpose of bringing in the messiah, and then destroyed, but he faithfully recorded what he saw.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Thats not humor my friend.

Your taking a non salvic doctrine and making an attack against someone who does not believe as you do.

I am not worried if we agree or not. It is not salvic. and not a doctrine which is worth doing something at the risk of someone elses expense.

Do You think Jesus would do this?

Well I disagree.

Daniel was not praying about a spiritual city.

His people were in sin, They were approaching the end of their prophesied 70 year captivity. Daniel knew it was the end. He was prying to God to show mercy to his people and his city. God told him he would give it back for 70 weeks (talk about mercy) inspite of their sin. But at the end of this 70 weeks. They sin (rebellion against God) would come to an end.

Isreal is still in sin, Still in rebellion, Their city is still in ruins (trampled on by gentiles) and the fulfilment is still waiting to be fulfilled.

ANything short of the nation of Israel repenting (end of sin) and the city being trampled by Gentiles would be a lack of fulfilment/

Married_Richenbrachen · Oct 18, 2013

Eternally-Gratefull, below is a study on Daniel that I learned a lot from. It addresses the issue about where we might mix up what Messiah does, and what the abomination of desolation causes.

It fits a lot better with scripture. Jesus' coming and death are foretold (as expected) within the 70 weeks prophesied, without any 2000 year gaps, or skipping forward to a future antichrist.

zone said:

watcher2013 · Oct 18, 2013

Could the covenant be talking of the holy covenant.
In Daniel 11:30-31 we have
[Dan 11:30-31] KJV v 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. v 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

1. The holy covenant vs covenant of 9:27
2. Taking away of the sacrifice vs 9:27
3. The abominatiin that maketh desolate vs 9:27
Could this be a pattern?

4enlightment · Oct 18, 2013

Luke 22:20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Corinthians 3:6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

Hey bro, I have studied this subject for 20 years. i have studied all views. not just the one I believe.

again.. There is no problem with any gaps. Since the church was a mystery to the OT saints.. it would not have been mentioned.. thus the gap problem is no problem.

The restoration of Israel after repenting, (having her blindness removed0 and the restoration of jerusalem is the fulfiment. That was the context. i can not with a sound mind and open heart make it to be anything else. For I would have to add to scripture.

Taking a symbol approach to make prophesy fulfill itself did not come around until the 300's, when the catholic church had to symbolize many doctrines to bring in her pagan heresy. this is just one of those things they twisted.

They had such a hate for isreal. the thought of that nation ever repenting sickened them, thus came the replacement theology.

Abiding · Oct 18, 2013

[h=3]Romans 15:8[/h]
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises(covenant) made unto the fathers:

svedbygrace · Oct 18, 2013

watcher2013 said:

The Death of Christ. From His His Death to the second coming is a week. And why did you evade comments I made with scripture ? Can you disprove them ?

watcher2013 · Oct 19, 2013

svedbygrace said:

From death to his second coming is a week...don't you think its quite a long week. Compare to the 69 weeks.

I did not evade your comments with scriptures, i am trying to understand how you connect that scriptures with the "one week".

And it seems that i do not need to disproved it, for you have a different uderstanding of "one week".

zone · Oct 19, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Humor is an attack? OK if you say so. (Zone do you still have that picture?)

The new covenant fulfills all covenants with Israel. Daniel was praying about the restoration of his country, and GOD let him know that a natural kingdom was not his ultimate plan (never was), and proceeded to reveal the method by which everlasting righteousness would be ushered in. This certainly would have been confusing and upsetting to Daniel to know that his nation would be restored for the purpose of bringing in the messiah, and then destroyed, but he faithfully recorded what he saw.

there's no gap?

zone · Oct 19, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

hi EG - but how does this work then?:

Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull
We also know (from context of the whole passage) that 1 week = 7 years.

one week does equal 7 years. so Jesus was not killed 7 days into the 70th week. He was cut off in the middle of the 'week' < 7 years = 3.5 years.

zone · Oct 19, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

it doesn't say at the end of the seventy weeks (70 years) all of Israel's (every member of the nation) sin (rebellion against God) would come to an end'.

it's talking about what Jesus would do - for them. and the result of that being identical to what Christian today receive.

Romans 6
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

eternally-gratefull said:

well, some people who call themselves Israel - or their regional dwelling Israel are still in sin and unbelief.
what does that have to do with Daniel and Jesus?

if they continue not in unbelief, they can be saved.

eternally-gratefull said:

the trampling was complete by the end of the jewish romans wars.

we're not suggesting the Lord suddenly doesn't want the Great Commission extended to the gentiles? like this is kind of a double-minded view of God, imo.

eternally-gratefull said:

those who did repent repented.
those who didn't, didn't.
the fulfillment wasn't reliant on every single israelite repenting. in fact the prophets all said they wouldn't.

a remnant would be saved.

zone · Oct 19, 2013

the thing is.....

Re: What is the COVENANT of Daniel 9:27?

if this is a covenant by someone other than Jesus, specifically someone in the future, where do we find it mentioned?
anywhere but 9:27?

there's way too much eisegesis there. can't pluck that verse out and make a The Antichrist out of it.
where are the second witnesses to this?

zone · Oct 19, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Daniel 2
40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

....

John 12
So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?”

Psalm 110:4
The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Matthew 1:23
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Luke 1:33
and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

John 12:34
The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"

Hebrews 7:24
but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

Acts 13:23
"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

What is the COVENANT of Daniel 9:27?

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