What Is The Difference Between The Cross And The Resurrection?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#41
The Message of the Cross is Jimmy Swaggart's website and the name of his TV program

just google it. I seriously do not even want to link to it

these are Swaggart's word from the site on the first page:


After seeking the Lord day and night, so often with tears, for a period of some six years, suddenly and without warning, the Lord began to open up to me that for which I had so long sought. I honestly don’t remember the day or the month, but the year was 1997. I had spent some six years in concentrated prayer, seeking the Lord, imploring Him for guidance and direction.
Let me make something clear: The daily vigil of prayer purchased me nothing with God. As stated, it was for the purpose of my getting to know Him in a more personal way. In other words, He was preparing me for this Revelation of the Cross which He would give to me. For years I had known what He could do, but now I was learning, on a personal basis, Who He was, a description, incidentally, which can never be exhausted.
so this teaching is a PERSONAL revelation

who Jesus is, THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. He said so Himself and that requires the witness of the Holy Spirit in the believer to grasp that, believe that, live that and know that

what Swaggart has going on, probably most of us don't want to know anymore

and by the way, how does a person seek the Lord for SIX years and then get an answer SUDDENLY AND WITHOUT WARNING?

that is one extremely contradictory statement and makes as much sense as the 'revelation' he got

get thee some discernment. it's always out in the open, very 'religious' sounding but FALSE. study the Word so you KNOW the false
 
Last edited by a moderator:
R

Robee

Guest
#42
There's a progression provided by God that permits us to approach to Him. It's not 'willy nilly'. Ref. Cain & Abels Approaches in Genesis.

This is an unchanging principle from Genesis to Revelations. We cannot approach God however way We(Self) wish to. God has always taken the initiative in our relationship with Him ever since Adam & Eve were Re-Clothed with animal skins provided by God(Himself) as opposed to their own Fig Leaf guilt ridden attempt.

Even so God will never contradict His own character and Nature. Having said this Jesus has accomplished all (redemption) through the Cross and was raised from the dead in approval from God. He has justified Us not ourselves. It should be no different with our sanctification.

Scripture reveals only the person that can CONTINUALLY (without stopping, ever!) DO ALL the things written in the Law, that only this person will be Justified by them(the commandments) from the consequences of Sin(Original Sin).

Many fail to realise this until God brings them to the end of themselves with much suffering before they humble themselves and admit their inadequacy before a Holy God.

No "concerted self-effort", "human resolution" or "will power" will bring about what only the Holy Spirit has been assigned to do, and that is to enable believers to "Grow Up into Christ", to grow in the GRACE & knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Our Holy God's Requirements for All without exception for relationship with Him:

Rom 2:13
"For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous."

Ezekiel 20:11
"and I gave them my statutes and declared unto them my rights, by which the man that does them shall live (be justified) by them."

Leviticus 18:2-5
2“Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘I am the LORD your God. 3‘You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes. 4‘You are to perform My judgments and keep My statutes, to live in accord with them; I am the LORD your God. 5‘So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD."

Leviticus 18:4-5(paraphrased)
"4‘You are to (continually)perform My judgments and (continually)keep My statutes, to live(be sanctified) in accord(union) with them; I am the LORD your God. 5‘So you shall(Must) keep(All & continually) My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live(be Justified of Life) if he (continually)does them(without ever failing ONCE), I am the LORD."

Needless to say, that God sees the doing of His commandments not like we do(hit and miss). God requires and accepts only perfection, all the time .

And this is the issue of the Church down through almost every generation, till today.

Gal 3:3
"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being perfected in the flesh?"

*They are Yaweh's Judgements and Commands, God is a Person. A Spirit!
A Spirit NEVER SLEEPS, NEVER RESTS, NEVER DIES. GOD IS HOLY......
These commandments were only ever revealed by Him to man. Not the other way!

Apostle Paul Said in Romans 7:12
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and GOOD.

EVEN OUR LORD JESUS HUMBLY SAID;
Luke 18:19
"“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone.""

Romans 7:14
"We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."

Humans sold under (the) Sin by our first Parents are unspiritual...unlike our great God.

We CANNOT in our selves CONTINUALLY KEEP ALWAYS(without ever stopping) GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AS HE WOULD WANT US TO.

Romans 10:5 (new living translation)
"For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to ALL of its commands."

Not only the above but Jesus in Matthew chapters 5,6 & 7 actually brought revelation in His Person that God expected His Holy Law to be INTERNALISED IN US!!!!!!!!!. How are we ever to do this?

Not only this but Apostle James said,
James 2:10
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
(St. James was talking about this internalised Law, let alone the acts of transgressions!!!)
We know this because James previously in Chpt 2 of his letter referred to Adultery and Murder, adultery because there were members in the church "holding the Faith of the Lord Jesus Christ with partiality" and then murder because the poor believers amongst them were ignored, marginalised & derided (murder), judging with evil thoughts. In other words the Law At the thought level!

St James had the revelation and illumination of the Holy Spirit, that at conversion The (whole) Word was implanted in Us, therefore don't be just hearers of it. The (whole) word, including commandments fulfilled, were implanted by Grace when we simply believed on the Lord Jesus for salvation. He called it The Perfect Law of Liberty (because Jesus fulfilled it Once For All eternally For Us) therefore, and only then persevere in the Word and be not mere hearers of it.

James 2:21
"Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly receive the word planted in you, which can save your souls."

Further to this, St. James and the Jewish belibvers in Jerusalem obviously were Jews and were fully aware of the things like the Passover Feast and its meaning. They knew why the animal sacrifices were brought to the Levite Priests ministering in the Temple. They knew of the Hebrew meaning of Ransom, Atonement (The Day of Atonement) etc. It was a case for them of connecting the dots and understanding these types were fulfilled in Christ Jesus and overcoming tradition. But they understood Covenant.

The jewish believers understood the truths of the Sin offerings and guilt offerings. They understood the principals of exchange evident in the offerings, in a Ransom. They understood the reconciliation in Atonement.

When a Jewish person wishing to be forgiven brought the required animal to the Temple as per the Law of Moses. They would lay hands on the beast confessing their sins and so transfer their guilt to the substitute "clean" animal. It was consecrated before God as revealed by God in the Law given to Moses to bear the punishment for Transgression of the offerer. But, in the same act the animal's innocence (guiltlessness) was transferred to the offerer.

Guiltlessness and innocence as exhibited in the animal offered & consecrated(set apart) for this, implied therefore a "non breaking state of God's Holy Law", which God wanted to see. Broken Law(discontinuance) was transferred to the offering and the victim was put to death. In EXCHANGE the offerer received Justification & Sanctification, the right to live.

An Exchange occurred that was understood by the Offerer and the Levite Priest administering the ceremony. The animal not ONLY paid the Price (as is so often preached) But equally It's innocent(guiltless) Nature was transferred to the offerer.

This transference then translates to the offerer receiving God's Favour and Mercy and therefore removal of the Curse due to transgressing Gods Law.

Moreover, if Gods Law is not fulfilled in Us in its entirety and continually then we run the risk of falling back into the curse, due to broken Law. Effectively falling from Grace and coming short of God's Glory. Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Deut 27:26
"26 Cursed is the one who does not confirm(uphold) all the words of this law by observing them."
And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’"

Gal 3:10-12
"v10 All who rely on works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” v11And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”v12The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The one who does these things will live by them.”

Come the Apostle Paul's Revelation of The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (Gal 1:11-12)

Gal 3:11
"And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the Law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 3:20
"Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin(Singular) -(The sin
principal in Us, until we see the Lord in Glory)

God's Holy Law was Broken by Us whether Jew or Gentile.
Hence the continual animal sacrifices by Israel as commanded by God's Law.
Hence Gentile's consciences either approving(good) or disapproving(evil- not good) their actions.

Gal 3:12
"The Law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The one who does these things will live by them."

In other words any self made, Man made, human efforts to try to live for God
,i.e. sanctification, that you are deceived into thinking that it will bring you closer to God than what Jesus has made you IS not of Faith.

And because it's by Grace Alone through Faith Alone it doesn't mean you do nothing in that sense. 'Easy believism' or 'easy grace' as it's coined.

But, the believer Now armed with proper knowledge of the WORK of Christ on The Cross, can surrender and yield themselves to the Person of The Holy Spirit to bring about CONTINUAL - perpetual lasting growth, lasting transformation and victory.

Col 2:6
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him"

to conclude, Only Jesus' perfect Substitutionary God Honouring death on the Cross repaired both Manward and Godward what Adams Sin had caused.

His death is of inestimable value, more than we will know. Christ's death on the Cross was like no other. Under excruciating suffering He made Atonement and expiated Sin. Other men crucified cursed no end due to the pain.

Christ was without sin and never sinned, not even in word despite the pain suffered. A gracious merciful holy God was the agrieved party due to the Fall. How can we be presumptuous enough to assume that we in our condition could ever come near to give back to God what was taken from Him(restitution). All sin is a sin against God ultimately.

We could not then repay back to Him the Glory, Honour and Dignity taken from Him due to man's sin. More than anything Jesus Christ repaired and restored back to God what was always due to Him if He was to forgive Justly. This was achieved by Christ on the Cross.

That He then would send Christ to die for me is just scandalous.....

1 Cor 1:18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" :)

Galatians 6:14 (aramaic bible/english version)
"But let it not be for me to take pride except in the crucifixion of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, in whom the universe has been crucified to me, and I have been crucified to the universe."

Glory to God!
 
R

Robee

Guest
#43
you don't understand

thousands died on crosses

why was Jesus death any different?

BECAUSE HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD

to say what you are saying has to be spiritually discerned, is like trying to use 'magic' by telling us only those operating under whatever YOU are understanding, is THE truth

that does not work or you would be the judge

you are not and it seems you may be following a certain teaching that does not illustrate why Jesus was raised from the dead

I mean, seriously, what you are presenting is not even an option
------------------------------------------------------------------
Great discussions...
Yes I would wonder "why are people separating His death from His Resurrection too,?" unless the Lord has graciously opened up my understanding as to the significance of the awesome things He achieved on the Cross.

However, I've come to realise that,
"The Logos of The Cross" IS truly a revelation. I've experienced "Word of Faith" for years and it inspired me no doubt to "get into the Word" etc etc.

I've realised too that it takes Faith to Truly SEE "The Cross". I believe the separation is for teachings sake as revealed through God's vessel The Apostle Paul, from whom"Word of Faith" takes significant teaching too. (this is another story for another time)

There's a positive if we would humble ourselves to it. Romans chpt 6 is not about Water Baptism persee... So what is it referring to exactly?

The Holy Spirit is faithful if we would humble ourselves, seek and be willing to receive what is the really the core of the Gospel.

The message (logos grk, word, preaching) of the Cross is largely foolishness to our western democratic mind set(to start with).

"What do I mean? I mean that "Who wants to dwell on what is a horrific death" . "As necessary as it was, it was done, let's move on...."

"Who wants to dwell on a defeated Messiah"?

"He saved others, He can't save Himself"

"Was it a defeat really?"

To the religious mentality it's a stumbling block, because "why would a glorious king and messiah need to go through such a thing?" He's the Messiah! He's come to deliver, like David, like Solomon, like Gedeon, like Moses, like Joshua, like Samson.
The Cross is for criminals and the worst of society. The Messiah isn't a Messiah if He's shamed and crucified?

If I insert just this truth of what Jesus did on the Cross, it will I hope show that there's a never ending revelation of the things achieved by Him.

As Messiah He is King (the perfect eschatological King of His Kingdom now and to come) of the linage of David in His humanity.

Correct?. ok.

Where has anyone been taught that any King is above Law?

Like the prophet Nathan gave the parable of the little sheep To David, that was unrighteously taken from a poor loyal devout soldier of Israels Army by a rich powerful man.

Where did Christ then as True King of Kings and Messiah fulfil God's own broken Law?

Could He have just winked at this part and say "awww it'll be alright...." " My Father in Heaven will fix it up...don't worry about...."

This didn't happen, He paid the Full price fulfilling Gods Law and brought honour to God. God is sovereign but in His sovereignty He has limited Himself to His own Holy Law. God the Trinity is Law abiding even when Immanuel came. God Incarnate.

Christ (Messiah/King) fulfilled this on the Cross.
It's an aspect of The Cross of Christ.

That's where the saying is true that says,"there's no crown without the Cross"

Do you see them that just by Him achieving this He has in turn fulfilled many things including making believers Priests and Kings to our God??

There wouldnt be any resurrection with Him having achieved this and many other things on the Cross.

There's more to "The Cross" and His glorious work there than we have been lead to believe.

Be Blessed
 
R

Robee

Guest
#44
*"There wouldnt be any resurrection withOUT Him having achieved this and many other things on the Cross."