What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Uh... i looked at scripture you posted. Uh... most had nothing to do with the 1Cor.15 event. No offense. To tell ya truth, i havent understood any of your posts. Ive read them all but could follow none. Sorry. Its like im tryin to follow a single bullet but you fire a shot gun. Some hit the target but most do not
I assume you're speaking of the 2Cor5:2-4 passage, where I am pointing out that:

--the "CLOTHED UPON" refers to "being changed into our glorified bodies APART FROM having to DIE first [/"unclothed"]"--THAT takes place at the time of "our Rapture" (2Cor5:2-4's section focusing on the "THIS *MORTAL* [i.e. still-living]" part..., and concludes with "that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE"
 

TheDivineWatermark

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See what i mean. You state theres a trumpet being blown after the tribulation. 1Cor.15 says the last trumpet is blown at that time. When we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. The LAST one!!!! There are no more trumpets to be blown after the last one is blown. And yet you go on to say theres a trumpet being blown AFTER the tribulation. Do the math.
No it doesn't. ;)

And "in the twinkling of an eye" (when we're "changed" and then "raptured") refers to "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN" (i.e. the "DARK/DARKNESS" / "IN THE NIGHT" *ARRIVAL* of the Day of the Lord TIME PERIOD, which is "kicked off" [/STARTED] by SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" of MANY MORE that will FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL one!) This is a split-second at this "turn of the day" (AT SUNDOWN; the way that all time-related prophecies are counted which pertain to Israel [who will enter the Trib yrs, and come to faith WITHIN those same Trib yrs, etc...])


[Lk13:30 ;) ]
 

Wall

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Mar 13, 2013
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And "in the twinkling of an eye"
JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}
 

Wall

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ACTS 1 [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE WAS TAKEN UP; AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM out of their sight. [10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same JESUS, WHICH IS TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus was taken up in a cloud and will return in a cloud. Sure does look like Hes coming only once “in a cloud”.

REVELATION 1 [7] Behold, he cometh WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of THE EARTH SHALL WAIL because of him. Even so, Amen.

When He returns in a cloud the earthlings are gonna wail. Why wail? Are they wailing because theyve been raptured to heaven?

MARK 13 [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [26] And then shall they see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Jesus returns in the clouds AFTER the tribulation period......

ZEPHANIAH 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, A DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness,

On the “Day of the Lord”. That explanes all the wailing

1 THESSALONIANS 4 [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

After we are caught up and meet Him in the clouds.......

DANIEL 7 [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like THE SON OF MAN CAME WITH THE CLOUDS of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, AND A KINGDOM, THAT ALL PEOPLE, NATIONS, AND LANGUAGES, SHOULD SERVE HIM: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and HIS KINGDOM THAT WHICH SHALL NOT BE DESTROYED.

Its off to the Kingdom {the 1000 yr period of rest}.

AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD
 

TheDivineWatermark

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JEREMIAH 3 [11][…<snip-to-fit>...]TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:
I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}
The ones being gathered to Jerusalem (AFTER the trib) are said to be "gathered ONE by ONE" [NOT "in the twinkling!" (pertaining to "I SHEW you a mystery"--Paul said)] (in contrast to how "the Church which is His body" who will be going to "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" when we experience "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" when we are "CAUGHT UP/AWAY [like, 'SNATCHED']" ["AS ONE"!] and at that time experience our "CHANGE"... this is what the phrase that's saying "in the twinkling of an eye" speaks of; not the other!)

What you are doing is blurring together (into one thing) "the LAST trump/trumpet" (pertaining to US/"the Church which is His body" [just before the "new/turned-day-starting-at-SUNDOWN" STARTS]) and [conflating THAT with] the "GREAT trumpet" (pertaining to the believing remnant of Israel who will come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture [IN/DURING the trib yrs], which "gathering" is AFTER the trib, and TO... AT JERUSALEM).
You're coming up with "MUSH" that way, rather than what is actually being conveyed (because of disregarding all "chronology" and "timing issues" and "distinctions [that are NOT THE SAME items], etc... ;)
 
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The fire could be the nuclear war.
The War will be that which is written in Revelation 12:v.7-11 combined with Rev. 19:v.11-15

Rev. 19:v.7-8 & 14
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
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1 THESSALONIANS 4 [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.
The coming of the Son of man and the resurrection

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory". (Luke 21:v.26-27) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout (Matt;25:v.6-7), with the voice of the archangel -Michael-, and with the trump of God - the God's trumpet is with Michael -1 Thessalonians 4:v.16- and the dead in Christ shall rise first. - Then will be fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 12:v.1-3 about the resurrection of this time.

Oh yes, Revelation 12:v.9-12 show us this wonderful event:

9 And the great Red Dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (2 Corinthians 11:v.13-15) were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (yes NOW, only NOW) IS COME SALVATION, and strength, and the KINGDOM of our God(Revelation 11:v.15&18), and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they - Michael and his followers - overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
 
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DANIEL 7 [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like THE SON OF MAN CAME WITH THE CLOUDS of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, AND A KINGDOM, THAT ALL PEOPLE, NATIONS, AND LANGUAGES, SHOULD SERVE HIM: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and HIS KINGDOM THAT WHICH SHALL NOT BE DESTROYED.
Isaiah prophesied, saying: Is. 60:v.8 - 8 Who are these that FLY as a CLOUD, and as the doves to their windows? And he said more this: Is.40:v.31 - 31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with WINGS AS EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Exodus 19:v.4-5- 4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on EAGLES WINGS, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Revelation 12:v.14 - And to the woman were given TWO WINGS OF A GREAT EAGLE, that she might FLY into the wilderness, into her place (the Kingdom of God-period of transition), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
 

John146

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Quote 1 verse in context that states verbatim they are witnesses during the tribulation.
Ok, they were designated servants during the tribulation, 12,000 from each tribe. In their mouth was found no guile, they spoke the truth. I believe these to be the elect of Matthew 24.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

dcontroversal

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Ok, they were designated servants during the tribulation, 12,000 from each tribe. In their mouth was found no guile, they spoke the truth. I believe these to be the elect of Matthew 24.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Nice try....no score.....like I said....a verbatim verse that states the 144,000 will witness during the great tribulation....

You won't find it, because it does not exist....another farce that is continually parroted over and over and over...
 

John146

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Nice try....no score.....like I said....a verbatim verse that states the 144,000 will witness during the great tribulation....

You won't find it, because it does not exist....another farce that is continually parroted over and over and over...
They were servants of the Lord. They told the truth.

I’m pretty sure if you serve the Lord and tell the truth, you’re the Lord’s witness. How am I wrong?
 

dcontroversal

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They were servants of the Lord. They told the truth.

I’m pretty sure if you serve the Lord and tell the truth, you’re the Lord’s witness. How am I wrong?
They were servants of the Lord. They told the truth.

I’m pretty sure if you serve the Lord and tell the truth, you’re the Lord’s witness. How am I wrong?

Look at the only locations they are identified with.....and again I say...there is NO verse in context that states they will WITNESS during the Great Trib.........
 

Ahwatukee

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PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN

The one i just posted. It wasnt a long post. How did you miss it.
What does the above have to do with the church being gathered prior to God's coming wrath? The answer is nothing! You just pulled out a scripture and said, "see!"
 

Ahwatukee

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Nope. I believe God can protect His people while destroying the wicked. You dont believe God is capable of doing so.
Then you have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Just from logical reasoning, it is more prudent for the Lord to remove His church, opposed to protecting them in the midst of the worst time in the history in the world. Not to mention that Jesus said that he would keep believers out of that time of wrath. It is an honor to be ready when the Lord comes for His church.

Joel 1:14-15 (KJV)
14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Sooo... Who do you claim are the people in verse 14.
Just off the top of my head, I would say that Joel is referring to Israel. The church will not go through the day of the Lord, but will be removed prior to it.
 

John146

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Look at the only locations they are identified with.....and again I say...there is NO verse in context that states they will WITNESS during the Great Trib.........
Who are they then? What is their purpose?
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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Quote 1 verse in context that states verbatim they are witnesses during the tribulation.
yes! everyone always says 144 000 jewish evangelists but it doesnt say that anywhere. its made up where does it say anything about evangelism
 

John146

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yes! everyone always says 144 000 jewish evangelists but it doesnt say that anywhere. its made up where does it say anything about evangelism
Ok, from now on I’ll call them the 144,000 male virgin Jews who were servants of God that spoke truth. Does this appease everyone?
 

garee

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Then you have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Just from logical reasoning, it is more prudent for the Lord to remove His church, opposed to protecting them in the midst of the worst time in the history in the world. Not to mention that Jesus said that he would keep believers out of that time of wrath. It is an honor to be ready when the Lord comes for His church.



Just off the top of my head, I would say that Joel is referring to Israel. The church will not go through the day of the Lord, but will be removed prior to it.
All Israel is not born again Israel as the bride of Christ. Born again Israel is made up of inward Jews not pertaining to the flesh a outward Jew or the new name that God renamed his bride "Christian". An appropriate name that God named and not people that were trying to cause a division in the body of Christ. Christian a word with no other meaning added.. . "Residents of the heavenly city prepared as the wife of Christ. Named after her husband Christ".

It would seem you need to add extras as far as people and tribulation ideas . The Bible speaks of one church a new born again creature. Having nothing to do with the things seen the temporal but the unseen faith principle. Abel the first recorded Christian and first martyr to bring the gospel.

You are creating a scenario that the Bible does not speak of .The severity cannot get any worse that a dying creation that has been judged as to the execution of it . The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven the next step is the execution or carrying out . Death as the letter of the law will be cast in to the fiery judgement of God on the last day .Never to rise. . . . . and condemn another whole creation .
 

John146

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Abel the first recorded Christian and first martyr to bring the gospel.
Abel was a Christian? Abel placed his trust in the resurrected Jesus Christ? Not. Abel had faith in God but not the cross of Christ. The Church began after the resurrection.