WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF ORIGINAL SIN?

[SovereignGrace]

We are born neutral is what I believe about original sin.

Which puts you under the teaching of Pelagius. He taught that ppl were born 'tabula rasa', and I can not find that teaching anywhere in the bible.

Sin mighta entered the world for the first time thru Adam but it dont mean God imputes Adam's sin unto us.

There is no 'mighta' about it. Therefore, just as through one man(Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.[Romans 5:12] Adam acted as our federal head, and when he fell, we fell, being in Adam.

How is that fair?

Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.[Romans 1:22,23] On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?[Romans 9:20] You are teetering upon crossing over into these two verses my Brother. It's not about fairness, because if it had boiled down to Him being fair, then we'd all be cast headlong into an eternal gehenna. It's about grace and mercy that He sent His Son to die for even one unworthy sinner. Remember, we as lost folk, are considered His enemies. Yet, He sent His Son to redeem a number that no man can number that were His enemies. And you want to grumble about fairness?

We was born neutral,

Show me one properly exegeted verse that shows this to be truth. I can show you many that refute that ideology. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.[Psalm 51:5] The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.[Psalm 58:3] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[Romans 3:23] Now, seeing that babies die whilst in the womb, all even covers them. No one can die in a sinless state.

then we make either good or bad choices in life,

Left to ourselves, we always make the wrong choices, I am talking in regards to serving God. Jesus said You did not choose Me but I chose you.[John 15:16a]

which lead us to where we are.

Not 'we', but 'you'. You are squarely in the Pelagianism camp, as you're semi-Pelagian at best, and full-blown Pelagianism at worst. Neither is a good place to be in regards to theology.

Now unfortunately for a fella like me, i done made some bad choices

We all can say that.

had I made better choices id be way better off.

We all make choices based upon our nature. Its called compatibilism.

Augustine was tripping hard with a lot of his writings, dunno why he still holds such a big influence, this dude said everyone went to hell if they wasnt baptized when they was born so... yeah augustine was messed up. He was also obsessed with certain topics that are uhh.... yeah yall know what topic

Well, I haven't read any of his writings, have Calvin's Institutes, but read ~ 50 pgs of it.

But Original Sin is a biblical truth. The same way his guilt was imputed to us is the EXACT SAME WAY the Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If babies are born sinless or neutral, how do many die in this state, seeing the wages of sin is death?[Romans 6:23a]

They die physically under a different principle:Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom 5:12).

While babies have not sinned, death has passed upon all humanity. But since the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, His blood covers those who cannot respond to the Gospel (babies and little children), since "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself".

 

[SovereignGrace]

They die physically under a different principle:Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom 5:12).

They die as a consequence of Adam's fall. Through no fault of their own they die. That shows his guilt was passed unto them.

What you're saying doesn't add up. Its like saying I have the flu, but not the flu virus.

While babies have not sinned, death has passed upon all humanity. But since the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, His blood covers those who cannot respond to the Gospel (babies and little children), since "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself".

Death passed upon all humanity is correct. That shows they are fallen in Adam. Which means he stood as their federal head. And you've ripped 1 Corinthians 5:19 out of context.

 

[Dreamstate]

Humans are born as babies, they don't know what is right or what is wrong, they should be taught.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

On this site, I see a vast departure from the proper doctrine of original sin.

The original sin doctrine says that Adam's sin is imputed to us, and as a result, all of mankind, prior to salvation, is guilty of Adam's sin BY IMPUTATION. We are sinners by imputation, as well as committing actual sin. We cannot, however, claim to believe in original sin by simply acknowledging the receipt of a sin nature, and the actual sin that accompanies it eventually.

The view that original sin only affects the nature, and is not imputed, is a sub-Orthodox view. It is mostly based on a philosophical view that imputation of Adam's sin would be "unfair".

However, if the same criteria is applied to imputation of Christ's righteousness to us, we would reject that doctrine. Pelagians would gladly agree that the imputation of Christ's righteousness is a false doctrine, but they are heretics.

Anyways I'm wondering how many on the forums percentagewise deny the doctrine of original sin, and claim that it is a false doctrine. Group consensus is irrelevant as it is a biblical view, but I am wondering how widespread the other view is.

Sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.

What about the age of accountability?

 

[Nehemiah6]

They die as a consequence of Adam's fall. Through no fault of their own they die. That shows his guilt was passed unto them.

That is completely incorrect. The consequences of his sin were passed upon all humanity. Even Eve did not have Adam's guilt imputed to her. This is a purely Roman Catholic idea derived from Catholic MISTRANSLATIONS of Rom 5:12. But since you prefer the mistranslations, who are we to argue?

 

[preacher4truth]

we each decide to sin we cant blame adam for our sins.

lolzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[preacher4truth]

I didn't think there'd be anyone claiming they are sinful. Thats lunacy, they cant even commit any sins, they are innocent.

Then you don't understand what sin is, what being sinful is, and that it doesn't mean one has to have committed sin in order to be a sinner...

Ya boi Augustine got you on that trip?

That's really callow...

Death entered the world thru Adam's sin is all.

Except for that pesky verse that says sin entered the world; Romans 5:12.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is completely incorrect. The consequences of his sin were passed upon all humanity. Even Eve did not have Adam's guilt imputed to her. This is a purely Roman Catholic idea derived from Catholic MISTRANSLATIONS of Rom 5:12. But since you prefer the mistranslations, who are we to argue?

Here's how the KJV put it...

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[Romans 5:12]
It says sin entered into the world by one man(Adam) and death by sin. So, we see death and sin coming into the world by Adam. Also, read Genesis 3. Eve ate and there was no mentioning of her eyes being opened. When Adam ate, it says THEIR(both of them) eyes were opened. Adam's sin caused her eyes to open as well.

Then Romans 5:12 also says all have sinned. That includes even babies that die whilst still in the womb. The wages of sin is death. Someone sinless can't die.

 

[MattforJesus]

God said that every person is responsible for their own sins.

We cannot be blamed for other people's sins.

We are not responsible,and are not blamed,for the sin of Adam and Eve,nor is their sin applied to us in the way of them eating of the tree.

But it is applied to us in a different way.

Adam and Eve were created knowing God,and they would of never sinned if an outside source did not tempt them,and when Satan first tempted Eve,she said plainly we may not eat of the tree,so Satan tried a different approach and appealed to her ego,that she could be greater than what God created her to be,and she ate of the fruit.

God gave Adam and Eve a choice,so that is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden.

They would of never sinned if an outside source did not tempt them,so God allowed Satan to tempt Eve,and she ate of the fruit,and sinned,and then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him that it was alright to eat of the fruit,for she did not die,and Adam ate of the fruit,and sinned.

Their sin is their sin,and our sin nature cannot apply to us by their sin of eating the fruit,but it is still a result of why we have a sin nature.

It is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,and no longer would Adam and Eve not know any choice but to follow God,but now they would have a choice between good and evil,and would have to make the choice to follow God instead of always following God like they did before Satan tempted Eve.

So all of Adam and Eve's offspring,which Eve is the mother of all that is living,is born with a choice between good and evil,and are born not knowing God,and will do evil before they accept God,so all are born sinners,and fall short of the glory of God.

But concerning babies,and children not at the age of accountability,their angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones,so although we are born in to sin,we are innocent until we know right from wrong correctly,but we will sin before we accept God properly.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where is this mythical age of accountability found in the bible?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Where is this mythical age of accountability found in the bible?

Romans 7:7-10
King James Version(KJV)

7.)What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8.)But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9.)For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10.)And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
+++
Verse 3 says I was alive once,without the law.
sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.

But If everyone that Is not saved will be judged by the law,when would Paul have been alive without the law?

Then verse 3 says,and when the commandment came,sin revived and I died.
He didn't die physically,so then this would be talking about spiritually.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here's how the KJV put it...

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[Romans 5:12]
It says sin entered into the world by one man(Adam) and death by sin. So, we see death and sin coming into the world by Adam. Also, read Genesis 3. Eve ate and there was no mentioning of her eyes being opened. When Adam ate, it says THEIR(both of them) eyes were opened. Adam's sin caused her eyes to open as well.

Then Romans 5:12 also says all have sinned. That includes even babies that die whilst still in the womb. The wages of sin is death. Someone sinless can't die.

I believe the tense of "for all have sinned" here indicates something already completed. YLT puts it "for that all did sin." So, that being said, it isn't that we are awaiting for each person to sin for them to be then pronounced guilty, each person is already guilty and in sin. This appears to have taken place at the fall.

 

[Hungry]

If you look at creation you see balance, structure and order. Everything is created for purpose. The way gravity keeps the planets aligned, the way the populations of animals are kept in check through food availability and predators. Even each animal, including us have systems that keep balance in an effort for homeostasis, perfect internal balance. Humans under Gods will maintain the natural balance of the environment. The knowledge of "good and evil" separated us from our role. Like cancer we do not conform to the balance of intended function. We manipulate the environment to our will. It causes a ripple effect throughout creation. We say animals act instinctively. They are attuned to the frequency of the Spirit of God and obey their roles. It is like a symphony, and we are clanging symbols to our own beat. If you look to nature they all obey certain laws when it comes to eating and procreation. We do not. Their is no survival of the fittest and natural selection. We just grow like cancer. This is the system we are born into, and taught to perpetuate. Jesus told us not to worry about the physical and live by the spiritual. The spiritual is the concert, the balance of His mighty will. The physical causes self promotion, deceit, and doing what brings temporary pleasure rather than benefit to all. Being born again is accepting forgiveness so we can hear God and acquire sensitivity to the frequency, the Spirit of God. He enacts His will by us turning from the flesh and acting in love instead of fear and selfishness. This is what makes us the Body of Christ. He transmits the signal that you can perceive. This is the voice of God which aligns our thoughts with His thoughts. This is how we receive the wisdom promised by James. It's like we are connected similar to wifi to the Almighty Creator.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 7:7-10
King James Version(KJV)

7.)What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8.)But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9.)For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10.)And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
+++
Verse 3 says I was alive once,without the law.
sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.

But If everyone that Is not saved will be judged by the law,when would Paul have been alive without the law?

Then verse 3 says,and when the commandment came,sin revived and I died.
He didn't die physically,so then this would be talking about spiritually.

At what time has mankind been without law? It was there in the Garden when God gave them one command and they broke it.

It says we have the law written upon hearts. Those who never heard of the Christ know that it is wrong kill, steal, commit adultery, &c. Why? God's law is written upon their hearts.

If babies are w/o law, allowing them to age to the day they would possibly become lost and die and go to hell would be the cruelest thing a parent could do.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

At what time has mankind been without law? It was there in the Garden when God gave them one command and they broke it.

It says we have the law written upon hearts. Those who never heard of the Christ know that it is wrong kill, steal, commit adultery, &c. Why? God's law is written upon their hearts.

If babies are w/o law, allowing them to age to the day they would possibly become lost and die and go to hell would be the cruelest thing a parent could do.

That's why I asked the question,what did Paul mean by I was alive once without the law If he was always under law?

I know he was alive without the law when he received grace but when was he alive without the law,before he received grace?

That could only be before the commandment came,Innocence (the age of accountability)

If you don't believe that children are Innocent at one time then you may as well be saying GOD Is not fair and just.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

By The Way,when I say law,I'm not talking about a physical law,I'm talking spiritually when the commandment came.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's why I asked the question,what did Paul mean by I was alive once without the law If he was always under law?

I know he was alive without the law when he received grace but when was he alive without the law,before he received grace?

That could only be before the commandment came,Innocence (the age of accountability).

When Paul lived under the Law, he lived it to its fullest...well, as full as he possibly could. He thought that the Law was all he needed. He was not a believer of the Christ when he was 'Pharisee of the Pharisees'. He was even more prosperous than many of them. It was when the Christ knocked him off his ride that he realized all that he thought was right was utterly wrong. He realized the Law only condemns a man, and never justifies a man. That is what I believe he was saying in Romans 7.

If you don't believe that children are Innocent at one time then you may as well be saying GOD Is not fair and just.

And again, how can someone who is innocent die? Remember, the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23a] If babies are innocent/sinless then they can't die, seeing the wages of sin is death.

Look at the Christ. When He was reckoned a sinner, God treated Him the same as you or I. He who knew no sin became sin.[2 Cor. 5:21] It was when He became sin, God treated Him as if He was a sinner.

In the garden of Gethsamane, the Christ prayed three times for the cup to pass from Him. What cup was this He was speaking of? For a cup is in the hand of the Lord, and the wine foams; it is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Surely all the wicked of the earth must drain and drink down its dregs.[Psalm 75:8] And also Rouse yourself! Rouse yourself! Arise, O Jerusalem, You who have drunk from the Lord’s hand the cup of His anger; The chalice of reeling you have drained to the dregs.[Isa. 51:17] This cup the Christ drank was the cup of His Father's wrath that had our sins in it as well.

 

[botham]

I have seldom heard it preached--only mentioned in passing--that is, Jesus Christ praying before His crucifixion. And in a sense it is glaring right at us. Here we have the same man who raised Lazarus from the grave, He declared that he was not just involved in the resurrection but that He was the resurrection, this same man seems to be begging not to die by torture. Not so at all and it would be such a good sermon. Christ pleading to His Father , 'paraphrase' 'is there a way around this?' denotes how terrible and dreadful, beyond anything any of us will ever endure, was the Cross. Jesus Christ knew He would be resurrected, so what was the pleading about? His Father, who He had perfect union with from eternity past would need to turn away or future generations could question whether Christ's sacrifice was complete. It was complete. Jesus Christ said 'my God my God why hast Thou forsaken Me'. That could never be said if God did not turn away. It was not the physical agony on the Cross--but we can all certainly agree about that excruciating pain-- that Jesus Christ was pleading about in Gethsemane --it was the darkness, depicted in the Bible when God the Father imputed sin on the sinless while He, the Father turned away. When one understands this, how could they ever again think there would be another passage to Heaven, except through Jesus Christ. A possible inferred corollary might be that the darkness Jesus Christ prayed about is, if not a distinct depiction of hell might be a solid metaphor.

When Paul lived under the Law, he lived it to its fullest...well, as full as he possibly could. He thought that the Law was all he needed. He was not a believer of the Christ when he was 'Pharisee of the Pharisees'. He was even more prosperous than many of them. It was when the Christ knocked him off his ride that he realized all that he thought was right was utterly wrong. He realized the Law only condemns a man, and never justifies a man. That is what I believe he was saying in Romans 7.


And again, how can someone who is innocent die? Remember, the wages of sin is death.[Romans 6:23a] If babies are innocent/sinless then they can't die, seeing the wages of sin is death.

Look at the Christ. When He was reckoned a sinner, God treated Him the same as you or I. He who knew no sin became sin.[2 Cor. 5:21] It was when He became sin, God treated Him as if He was a sinner.

In the garden of Gethsamane, the Christ prayed three times for the cup to pass from Him. What cup was this He was speaking of? For a cup is in the hand of the Lord, and the wine foams; it is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Surely all the wicked of the earth must drain and drink down its dregs.[Psalm 75:8] And also Rouse yourself! Rouse yourself! Arise, O Jerusalem, You who have drunk from the Lord’s hand the cup of His anger; The chalice of reeling you have drained to the dregs.[Isa. 51:17] This cup the Christ drank was the cup of His Father's wrath that had our sins in it as well.