What must I do to be saved

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,908
5,737
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#61
So you are not into obedience? Do you think it's optional to love your neighbour? Jesus said that to be saved one must obey the commandments. And He is the Lord, right?
believing that to look to Him with faith, as to look toward the brazen serpent that was raised in the wilderness, is what is necessary for Him to save you, does not imply disobedience and wicked behaviour.

i think that's called a false syllogism?
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#62
No need to get into personal attacks. Anyone who distorts the Gospel is indeed deceived by Satan.

So let me answer your question, and in turn you should abandon your false Calvinistic ideas. The world in John 3:17 (as in John 3:16, or in 1 John 2:2, or many other Scriptures) means "the whole world".

οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἵνα κρίνῃ τὸν κόσμον ἀλλ' ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι' αὐτοῦ

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος


5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g.) :.. John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9;...
OK, I see where you stand but I must disagree you because now your saying that Jesus failed. Jesus is almighty God He never fails in anything He sets out to do. If He wanted to save the whole world He would have
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#63
God sending His Son to save the world is not a picture of God idly sitting by as He watches the foolishness of mankind.

God working in His children to reach out to the lost is not God being "passive in this".
So you're saying that God fails 90% of the time, interesting position
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#64
God certainly did.

He said: " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. " (John 3:16)

God predetermined to save "whosoever" in the whole world who will come.
Very good point, thank you.

Why do so many here insist that the the Bible says "whole world", they deny many scriptures which say that most are actually going to hell. And only those who God chose before He laid the foundation of the world will be saved
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,315
1,719
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#65
Very good point, thank you.

Why do so many here insist that the the Bible says "whole world", they deny many scriptures which say that most are actually going to hell. And only those who God chose before He laid the foundation of the world will be saved
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

God is not willing that any should be lost but that all should be saved. It is the hardness of men's hearts that leads to their destruction.

Go back to Genesis and see that when Adam fell in the garden one of the things that changed in addition to sin was Adam received the knowledge of good and evil. Adam knew the difference between good and evil. So do men today. Men have the ability to choose and the obligation to choose.

The matter now settles on which choice did you make?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
#67
It is a FALSE Bible teaching. So you will need to explain whether Christ said what is true or false in John 3:17.

TRUE OR FALSE (these are the words of Christ): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You (and others of your persuasion) have ignored the significance of this Scripture. You will either you have to admit that what Christ said was true, or accuse Him of a falsehood!

Also in the beginning you were not really sure if Calvinism was true, but now Satan has managed to deceive you into thinking it is true. But this one verse alone BLOWS AWAY Calvinism. And you should not dodge this Scripture, since it could empower you to REJECT Calvinism.
In this world do we not have wheat and tares or how about goat and sheeps. At least that is what I have read and seen in the Bible.
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#68
God allow many people to reject the gospel, and I think I can guess at the reason why that might be the case (either that or the Holy Spirit put together the scriptures in me and opened my eyes to this possible reason why)

Abraham's praying for the nation, while one knee on ashes, praying "if there is still one righteous person among the nation, may that nation be spared", starting from 50, and dwindled down to one

and, God will leave the 99 for that one lost sheep

in the sense that, for the sake of that one lost sheep (one more elect) if the nation will eventually physically give birth to one of God's elect, God will allow that nation to continue

however, Noah's flood most likely demonstrate how merciful God is to many future offspring, in the sense that the generation have grown so wicked that God have probably foresaw that the whole world will never give birth to elects. No elects will be produced, so God spared many unborn babies from the worst fate.

in short, will at least one of God's elect come from that nation in question?
if yes, that nation will last till the inevitable future for the answer to that question becomes "no"
if no, God will wipe out that nation, to be merciful to many unborn babies
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#69
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

God is not willing that any should be lost but that all should be saved. It is the hardness of men's hearts that leads to their destruction.

Go back to Genesis and see that when Adam fell in the garden one of the things that changed in addition to sin was Adam received the knowledge of good and evil. Adam knew the difference between good and evil. So do men today. Men have the ability to choose and the obligation to choose.

The matter now settles on which choice did you make?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hi Roger,

I beg to differ, there are just too many scriptures which teach that God is the One who chooses who will be saved.

None seek after the Lord, all have turned away. The natural man cannot receive spiritual things, they are foolishness to him.

We were born dead in or sins and trespasses, a dead person cannot chose to believe.

One could write a book on the topic, there are so many clear scripture teachings which support election and predestination.

There have been many wise and learned men over the last 5 centuries, who were highly qualified Bible theologians claiming that predestination is sound biblical doctrine. there have been others who argued against it but I believe there's more evidence to support it than there is against it.

It is very important to get it right, as it effects our standing with God. We can easily get it wrong and that leads to a wrong response to our obligation before the Lord.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
7,569
3,159
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#70
Calvin starts to remind me of the Pope

his followers think he is infallible
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,095
3,211
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#71
Read Romans 1:18 - 32

This section of Scripture tells us exactly what occurs in those who do not believe. It's not that they can't believe. It's that the unbeliever rejects the truth of God's Word when it is shared with them and the believer does not reject the truth when someone shares God's Word with them.

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:18-19 tells us that the truth is suppressed when God makes it plain to them. The word "hold" in vs 18 is the Greek word katechō and it means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When the Word of God is spoken, it is restrained from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God.

Because they suppress the truth, they do not glorify God, their thinking becomes empty and foolish and, as a result, their foolish hearts become darkened — Rom 1:20-21.

Because the heart is darkened, they profess themselves as wise but in reality they become fools and turn to idolatry — Rom 1:22-23.

Because of this, God gives them over to uncleanness — Rom 1:24.

Because they are given over to uncleanness, they degrade their own bodies and exchange the truth of God into a lie. They worship creation more than the Creator — Rom 1:25.

Because of this, God gives them over to vile affections — Rom 1:26.

Because they are given over to vile affections, they commit shameful acts and receive in themselves the adequate penalty for their error — Rom 1:27.

Because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gives them over to a reprobate mind — Rom 1:28.

Because they have a reprobate mind, they exhibit all of the behaviors shown in Rom 1:29-32.

Look at how long God holds on to a person before he or she is given over to a reprobate mind. First it's suppress the truth; then the foolish heart becomes darkened; then given up to uncleanness; then given up to vile affections; then reprobate mind. Each time the person is given up to the next downward step, it is because he or she has rejected God.

These are the steps that are taken over the course of many years. God holds on as long as He can, but at some point, as they move further and further away from Him, God has to let them go.

It's not like they suppress the truth in unrighteousness one moment and the next moment they have a reprobate mind. There are more than several steps involved in the downward spiral to reprobate mind. And in the Greek the word reprobate means not standing the test; not approved.

And at any point, a person can allow the truth of God's Word to penetrate their heart and God will start working to bring increase to that little kernel of truth they do not restrain. God brings the increase in the heart of those who do not reject Him.
I like this post So much I want to be able to reference it. That's why I'm posting.

There are progressions all through the Bible, and even in secular life.

Virtually no one becomes a junkie and shoot heroin with dirty needles to start their drug addiction. They start with alcohol, then pot, then maybe prescription pills, then meth, then coke, and finally, if they survived all that, they move to heroin, and ultimately die.
 
Mar 23, 2016
2,871
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#72
there are just too many scriptures which teach that God is the One who chooses who will be saved.

...

It is very important to get it right, as it effects our standing with God. We can easily get it wrong and that leads to a wrong response to our obligation before the Lord.
Do you realize when you take the position that God chooses who will be saved, you are also taking the position that God also "chooses" who will not be saved?

So let's take your position a step further …

It is now judgment day and the unbeliever is standing before God to give an account.

He (or she) can tell God "Well God, You did not choose me and I did exactly as You "willed" for me in my life. Therefore, you cannot consign me to the lake of fire because I did Your "will" for me in my life."


Romans 1:18-20 states that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse.

But you give the unbeliever and excuse for his/her behavior.
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#73
Based on Noah's flood, Abraham's Prayer for Sodom (Genesis 18), and that God will leave the 99 for that one lost sheep.

Those Bible reference lead me to conclude that God will let the nation continue based on the potential possibility of at least one of God's elect come from that nation in question.

If none of God's elect will come from that nation in question, God will wipe out that nation, to be merciful to many unborn babies.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,095
3,211
113
#74
Do you realize when you take the position that God chooses who will be saved, you are also taking the position that God also "chooses" who will not be saved?

So let's take your position a step further …

It is now judgment day and the unbeliever is standing before God to give an account.

He (or she) can tell God "Well God, You did not choose me and I did exactly as You "willed" for me in my life. Therefore, you cannot consign me to the lake of fire because I did Your "will" for me in my life."

Romans 1:18-20 states that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse.

But you give the unbeliever and excuse for his/her behavior.
Not taking a firm position on free will vs predestination, but Paul addresses EXACTLY the argument you just made, read Romans 9:19-24.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
123
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#75
Not taking a firm position on free will vs predestination, but Paul addresses EXACTLY the argument you just made, read Romans 9:19-24.
I can see why your not taking a firm position on free will vs predestination. I just read those verses, they are quite controversial and they can be taken in different ways depending on your predisposition.
We have all formed a certain world view, which can be a divisive thing. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,161
554
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#76
Seem to me before foundation of the world, God plan to create man, His plan is not to put them to hell, His plan is to make them happy, consistence with His nature of love.
Loving person not plan bad think to His creator. But God is also Just, so yes He chose who go to hell, but why, there is a reason why God chose a particular man go to hell. The reason is if that man not accept Him.

Than why God say I chose you before the foundation of the world.

Seem to me, it is because before the foundation of the world, His plan is to put every body in heaven, this is the original plan.

Say I have 2 children, I love them, and my original plan is to give both of them a good business and a nice house. But The older refuse, so be it. The younger accept my plan, so I tell to the younger, welcome, this is your house and business I prepare for you before you born.

It doesn't mean I am not prepare a house and business to the older. I chose to give to the younger because the younger accept it. If the older accept it, I will also chose him to receive a house and business.

God invite every body to be save

The invitation say

Whosoever believe in Him will be save.

Or whosoever believe in Him will be chosen to be save.

Whosoever, mean no exceptions but there is requirement

The requirement is believe in Him
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#77
Not taking a firm position on free will vs predestination, but Paul addresses EXACTLY the argument you just made, read Romans 9:19-24.
When all is said and done, all who find themselves cast into the lake of fire will have no one but themselves to blame.

I just cannot lay the foolishness of man at the feet of God when I see His plan of redemption as laid out in Scripture.
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#78
When all is said and done, all who find themselves cast into the lake of fire will have no one but themselves to blame.

I just cannot lay the foolishness of man at the feet of God when I see His plan of redemption as laid out in Scripture.
why would God allow many people to willfully and repeatedly reject the gospel?
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#80
Seem to me before foundation of the world, God plan to create man, His plan is not to put them to hell, His plan is to make them happy, consistence with His nature of love.
Loving person not plan bad think to His creator. But God is also Just, so yes He chose who go to hell, but why, there is a reason why God chose a particular man go to hell. The reason is if that man not accept Him.
True. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

There’s another verse that says hell has enlarged herself:

Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure

satan absolutely hates mankind and satan is not satisfied unless he brings as many men and women with him as he can lay hold of.





Jackson123 said:
Than why God say I chose you before the foundation of the world.

Seem to me, it is because before the foundation of the world, His plan is to put every body in heaven, this is the original plan.

Say I have 2 children, I love them, and my original plan is to give both of them a good business and a nice house. But The older refuse, so be it. The younger accept my plan, so I tell to the younger, welcome, this is your house and business I prepare for you before you born.

It doesn't mean I am not prepare a house and business to the older. I chose to give to the younger because the younger accept it. If the older accept it, I will also chose him to receive a house and business.
Good analogy.