When are we saved ?

[throughfaith]

John 6, Christ said that he would lose nothing but raise them up at the last day. If he died for all mankind and he does not lose any, then all mankind will be saved, according to your theory.

Notice he tells those to whom he was speaking, before the gospel

So, you do not think that the scriptures should harmonize?

I have given scripture reference where Moses was given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and it just became another scripture that you ignore like many of the other scriptures I have given you. Do you not believe that the scriptures must harmonize in order to believe the truths in the scriptures?

Its too clear that the Holy Spirit came and went from a person in the OT . in the NT we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption. Eph 4.30 . Thats the difference.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There's no such thing as a ' limited atonement ' . That is what is confusing your understanding of the verses in Romans 5 . If you lay aside that doctrine and simply read Romans 5 you will see what I'm trying to say .

Romans 5, I have already pointed out the fact that we are justified by Jesus's faith, referencing you to Gal 2:16.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22. The natural man cannot have spiritual faith, unless he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The faith in Rom 5:2 is not the faith of the natural man, but the born again person already has the spiritual faith into the grace of God, "wherein he stands", rejoicing in hope of the glory of God.
Verse 5:9, Much more then, being now justified BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved (delivered) from wrath through him.

 

[throughfaith]

Our faith does not give God the power to save us. His love grants us the power to believe unto salvation.

Did you mean power or authority? No one gives either to God ? If God has said it pleases him when we believe him and from that He saves us
.Whats the problem ?

 

[throughfaith]

Romans 5, I have already pointed out the fact that we are justified by Jesus's faith, referencing you to Gal 2:16.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22. The natural man cannot have spiritual faith, unless he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The faith in Rom 5:2 is not the faith of the natural man, but the born again person already has the spiritual faith into the grace of God, "wherein he stands", rejoicing in hope of the glory of God.
Verse 5:9, Much more then, being now justified BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved (delivered) from wrath through him.

Gal 2.16 part b) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, 'that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Notice the 'even we have believed in Jesus Christ, '

 

[EleventhHour]

Did you mean power or authority? No one gives either to God ? If God has said it pleases him when we believe him and from that He saves us
.Whats the problem ?

Very interesting how the words are selected and used?

Somehow people with that viewpoint cannot wrap there heads around that God is actually pleased when someone believes.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Notice he tells those to whom he was speaking, before the gospel
Its too clear that the Holy Spirit came and went from a person in the OT . in the NT we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption. Eph 4.30 . Thats the difference.

After we have been regenerated with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the old testament, or the new, we are then sealed (stamp of security, as when a king stamps his coat of arms to seal on an important message) which is the earnest (down payment of promise) of our inheritance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Gal 2.16 part b) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, 'that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Notice the 'even we have believed in Jesus Christ, '

The "even we" is Paul, and the brethren that is with him, and the church of Galatia, Gal 1:1-2, not the natural man before he has been regenerated.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Very interesting how the words are selected and used?

Somehow people with that viewpoint cannot wrap there heads around that God is actually pleased when someone believes.

I am sure he probably is pleased because they are his regenerated children.

 

[soggykitten]

Unbelief condemns a person, not because it is an unforgiven sin, but because it is the exclusive point of access to the grace. (Rom. 5:2)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.

Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)

What Calvinists call “the golden chain of redemption” contains no direct reference to the atonement. (Rom. 8:29-30)

Belief that salvation for anyone was secured on the cross constitutes a denial of the necessity of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:17)

Salvation is eternally secured by the sealing of the spirit, not “election.” (Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22)

There is no sealing of the spirit before Pentecost or after the harpazo of the church. (Eph. 4:30; John 14:17; Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

thoughts ?

Wow, some of the likes you've received are.... wow.

Here's a thought. When are we saved? Before the beginning of the world. Watch! I'll outdo you in negative reactions.
Predicated on the fact, Jesus saves. Maybe answers the age old question of why. Why did God arrange the fall in the garden? He didn't have to plant the only forbidden fruit tree nor let Satan and 1/3rd of the fallen angels continue to exist after their defeat during the war in heaven.
What if it is all arranged so that we set aside our self-image thinking we have to survive ourselves in this world, and in turn find that circumstances beyond our control in this world lead us to call out to God?
What Does the Bible Say About God Is Everywhere?


Colossians 1:15-17 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

There's no blinders on my eyes.

All men have the opportunity to repent. Not all men repent.

All men had the opportunity to join Israel. Not all men joined Israel.


So why do some repent and some don't? Some believe and some don't?

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

John 3:27

John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

IMO,this scripture Is talking about the age of accountability,the moment a person knows when they are doing wrong and GOD gives this to us and If a person doesn't know then sin Is not accounted where their Is no law.🙂

 

[throughfaith]

After we have been regenerated with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the old testament, or the new, we are then sealed (stamp of security, as when a king stamps his coat of arms to seal on an important message) which is the earnest (down payment of promise) of our inheritance.

Regeneration only happens after the resurrection. This is the biggest gaff in reformed theology. 1 peter 1 .3
3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[throughfaith]

After we have been regenerated with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the old testament, or the new, we are then sealed (stamp of security, as when a king stamps his coat of arms to seal on an important message) which is the earnest (down payment of promise) of our inheritance.

The Holy spirit IS the seal .

 

[throughfaith]

After we have been regenerated with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the old testament, or the new, we are then sealed (stamp of security, as when a king stamps his coat of arms to seal on an important message) which is the earnest (down payment of promise) of our inheritance.

Which never happened in the OT because the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit hadn't happened. Acts 2
John 7
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[throughfaith]

After we have been regenerated with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the old testament, or the new, we are then sealed (stamp of security, as when a king stamps his coat of arms to seal on an important message) which is the earnest (down payment of promise) of our inheritance.

speaking of inheritance.
eph 1
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The redemption of the purchased possession. This is what we are predestined to . Also rom 8.23 and Eph 1.5 . AFTER , not before, but AFTER we believe .Reformed theology has everything backwards .
Like ' Adoption ' being at Conversion. Election being ' chosen to be saved before in a secret council in eternity past ( Augustine, gnosctism)

 

[throughfaith]

I am sure he probably is pleased because they are his regenerated children.

Rom 4.5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Regeneration only happens after the resurrection. This is the biggest gaff in reformed theology. 1 peter 1 .3
3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Your problem is that you just ignore scriptures that refute your theology, instead of trying to make them harmonise. In the case of God putting the Hojt Spirit within Moses; When God put the Holy Spirit within Moses, he was begotten unto a lively hope. When Christ was resurrected from the dead, all of those, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, were begotten again unto a lively hope.

1 Peter 1:3, The "US" in this verse has reference to those mentioned in verses 1 & 2, who had already been begotten unto a lively hope, and now that Christ has risen from the dead, are begotten again unto a lively hope, which are God's people scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cap-pa-do-ci-a, Asia, and Bi-thyn,-ia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ;

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Holy spirit IS the seal .

That is your personal interpretation which will not harmonize with other scriptures.

 

[throughfaith]

That is your personal interpretation which will not harmonize with other scriptures.

Harmonize with doctrines you already have in your mind when you come across certain buzz words .

 

[throughfaith]

Your problem is that you just ignore scriptures that refute your theology, instead of trying to make them harmonise. In the case of God putting the Hojt Spirit within Moses; When God put the Holy Spirit within Moses, he was begotten unto a lively hope. When Christ was resurrected from the dead, all of those, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, were begotten again unto a lively hope.

1 Peter 1:3, The "US" in this verse has reference to those mentioned in verses 1 & 2, who had already been begotten unto a lively hope, and now that Christ has risen from the dead, are begotten again unto a lively hope, which are God's people scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cap-pa-do-ci-a, Asia, and Bi-thyn,-ia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ;

The problem with your theology its that over its development certain post hoc rationalization was added in to secure its longevity. Like what you've just said there .Moses ,David,( prayed " Not to have the Holy spirit taken from him ) Baalam, Samon, John the baptist ( the greatest prophet ) only had the Spirit UPON them . ONLY after the resurrection was the Holy Spirit given as in Acts 2.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Which never happened in the OT because the resurrection and the giving of the Holy Spirit hadn't happened. Acts 2
John 7
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Godhead has different functions. The Holy Spirit also has different functions. The Holy Spirit, initially, Quickens to life. The Holy Ghost is a comforter, an advocate of the Holy Spirit, a revelator.

John 14:26, But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The Apostle's already had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, before they received the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, which is an advocate of the Holy Spirit. Comforter in Greek=advocate.