WHEN DID GRACE BY FAITH END AND SALVATION BY WORKS BEGIN AS IN SHEEP/GOAT JUDGEMENT

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oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#21
So when Christ comes to sit upon His throne and all His holy ones, the holy ones become angels. It's the same word sacredos can be saints or angels. He makes them angels instead of what Paul teaches that God brings the church with Him to judge the world.

Having mistaken the church for angels Jerome must now find the church.

He finds them in the sheep on the right hand. They are not the church, they cannot be the church for the church will have been raptured 1, 000 years earlier and have reigned in heaven with Him. We are passed over from this judgement to life as John teaches.
Yes. Today we know that the Church was raptured only seven years earlier and are newlyweds which shall return with Him at His Second Coming. According to your theory, the RCC put the Rapture 1000 years to early, and many today put the Rapture 7 years too late. We agree that Christ returns down from Heaven with His already glorified and married Church.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,318
5,659
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#22
The problem starts and ends with the decision of the 4th century Roman Catholic Church's decision to scrap the 1, 000 year reign of Christ with His saints on earth.

They introduced Amillennialism into the church which believes that the 1, 000 years is an indefinite period and we are already in that epoch where Christ reigns on earth through the [un]holy Catholic Church.

The Latin Vulgate bible of St Jerome [which all other translations have followed] translates Matthew 25 according to this new doctrine.

So when Christ comes to sit upon His throne and all His holy ones, the holy ones become angels. It's the same word sacredos can be saints or angels. He makes them angels instead of what Paul teaches that God brings the church with Him to judge the world.

Having mistaken the church for angels Jerome must now find the church.

He finds them in the sheep on the right hand. They are not the church, they cannot be the church for the church will have been raptured 1, 000 years earlier and have reigned in heaven with Him. We are passed over from this judgement to life as John teaches.

So these sheep are a people who are judged on the basis of works.

This settles the argument, are we [the church] saved by grace alone through faith or by works.
mmm I was Catholic for the first 19 years of my life and I never heard anyone denying Jesus' 1000-year reign on earth.
The only Amillennial & Preterist views I've encountered are among Christians from small, splintered protestant groups.

People are constantly pontificating (he he) about Catholics on this site. It does wear thin. Bearly a thread goes by without someone blaming Catholics for something. Make that anything & everything. It can be quite entertaining when 2 are arguing and both are blaming Catholics for the other's proposed false beliefs. :rolleyes:
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
978
348
63
Pennsylvania
#23
And some with child? I wonder what the nature of these children will be? (I think it says the animals will be nice.)
In the Kingdom will be found no sin--Hard for us today to imagine.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#24
In the Kingdom will be found no sin--Hard for us today to imagine.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin
So the final rebellion will be limited to just tail end?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,817
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#25
I agree some will be scattered and who are some of these but those that heed the warning to:

17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle.

They are escaping the kingdom of the antichrist and the gentiles who assist them are those who are called by the Lord to be sheep.
Joel 3
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,817
3,581
113
#26
In the Kingdom will be found no sin--Hard for us today to imagine.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin
And then Satan is loosed again for a season to deceive the nations. These "sheep" nations were judged according to their treatment of Israel during the time of their trouble. The reward for good treatment is to be ushered into the millennial kingdom of Christ. But even these nations at the end will be deceived.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
978
348
63
Pennsylvania
#27
And then Satan is loosed again for a season to deceive the nations. These "sheep" nations were judged according to their treatment of Israel during the time of their trouble. The reward for good treatment is to be ushered into the millennial kingdom of Christ. But even these nations at the end will be deceived.
And then Satan is loosed again for a season to deceive the nations. These "sheep" nations were judged according to their treatment of Israel during the time of their trouble. The reward for good treatment is to be ushered into the millennial kingdom of Christ. But even these nations at the end will be deceived.
I have wondered over the years what Satan could do to rile those up at the end of the Kingdom age. One thing that comes to mind is death. Death is still here even tho they will live long lives. Death is one of the last things done away with:

Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,031
182
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#29
The simple answer to your thread question is that it didn't. The premise of your question is flawed.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,817
3,581
113
#31
I have wondered over the years what Satan could do to rile those up at the end of the Kingdom age. One thing that comes to mind is death. Death is still here even tho they will live long lives. Death is one of the last things done away with:

Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,817
3,581
113
#32
Joel 3
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
This is one reason I believe the book of James is doctrinally written with these Jews in mind as they are scattered abroad during their time of trouble. The term "twelve tribes" is always a reference throughout scripture to the nation of Israel as a whole. It is never used as a reference to Christians.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
978
348
63
Pennsylvania
#33
Since it is the living being judged at the end of Tribulation also means there is no resurrection nor is there one mentioned
 
May 19, 2023
86
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#34
The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
May 19, 2023
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#35
The Question was:
WHEN DID GRACE BY FAITH END AND SALVATION BY WORKS BEGIN AS IN SHEEP/GOAT JUDGEMENT

The answer lies in the fact that the Bible mentions the fact that there are two types of works mentioned in the New Testament: Works of Righteousness and Works of Faith.


Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of works which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Thessalonians 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of LOVE and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

We see in Acts 2:38 that that who are baptized will receive the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. LOOK!

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NOW LOOK AT THE CONNECTION OF FAITH AND WHAT GOD DOES FOR US WHEN WE HAVE FAITH IN HIM.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

iT IS GOD THAT IS DOING THE WORK WHEN WE HAVE FAITH IN GOD.

God bless you,
Wayne
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,071
1,481
113
Midwest
#36

Fillan

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2022
370
378
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45
#37
‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

IMHO the bolded phrase explains much of the meaning of this passage. 'My brethern'. It's kindness to a specific group, not an act of goodwill to random people. God Bless You :)
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
771
113
#38
The Question was:
WHEN DID GRACE BY FAITH END AND SALVATION BY WORKS BEGIN AS IN SHEEP/GOAT JUDGEMENT

The answer lies in the fact that the Bible mentions the fact that there are two types of works mentioned in the New Testament: Works of Righteousness and Works of Faith.


Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of works which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Thessalonians 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of LOVE and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

We see in Acts 2:38 that that who are baptized will receive the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. LOOK!

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NOW LOOK AT THE CONNECTION OF FAITH AND WHAT GOD DOES FOR US WHEN WE HAVE FAITH IN HIM.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

iT IS GOD THAT IS DOING THE WORK WHEN WE HAVE FAITH IN GOD.

God bless you,
Wayne
Faith, without love and fruits, is a dead faith. Just a clanging cymbal. Which is greater, faith or love? Jesus tells us, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, "If you love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself, you will have eternal life."
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,412
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#39
Salvation has only, and will only, be by grace through faith. The works spoken of are those that attend true salvation and are the result of the indwelling Spirit working in and changing the believer...Galat5:22-23.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
771
113
#40
Salvation has only, and will only, be by grace through faith. The works spoken of are those that attend true salvation and are the result of the indwelling Spirit working in and changing the believer...Galat5:22-23.
So, what is your definition/meaning of Jesus' grace? What does grace mean? This is what it means to me.

Grace is divine help and strength that we receive through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Through grace, we are saved from sin and death. In addition, grace is an enabling power that strengthens us from day to day and helps us endure to the end. Effort is required on our part to receive the fulness of the Lord’s grace.

Yes, we are saved through Jesus' grace. And He gives us the criteria through which He will save us in the "Judgement of Nations".

If you disagree with my meaning/definition of ' Jesus' grace' tell me your definition.

Also, my defination of faith in Jesus is believing all that He taught and all that He taught us to do. That is true faith to me.

If you disagree with my meaning/definition of faith in Jesus, then please share your understanding of faith.