When did Jesus know he was the Son of God?

[Johnny_B]

When did Jesus know he was the Son of God? Given that he is sinless how was he sinless as a child growing up?

He has known for all of eternity, this is where cultural meaning is important. The phrase "son of" in the Jewish culture means of the "same nature/same attributes" or "preceeding from" Jesus is the Son because He is of the same nature as the Father, that is what Jesus was saying when He said God was His Father, the Jews picked up stones to kill Him of blasphemy.

John 10:31-39 “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.”

Jesus preceeds from the Father, ​He calls God His Father and the Jews understood that to mean that He was God.

John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.”
Jesus was never born or was in the mind of God, because He is God, another example of the phrase, "son(s) of" to show that the person being called, "son(s) of" because they were of the same nature or had the same attributes. We can read in the OT in II King 2:3, 5

“And the sons of the prophets who were in Bethel came out to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that today the Lord will take away your master from over you?” And he said, “Yes, I know it; keep quiet....5 The sons of the prophets who were at Jericho drew near to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that today the Lord will take away your master from over you?” And he answered, “Yes, I know it; keep quiet....7 Fifty men of the sons of the prophets also went and stood at some distance from them, as they both were standing by the Jordan....15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him opposite them, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him and bowed to the ground before him.”

These guys were not the physical sons of a prophet, but they were prophets or the were of the same nature, having the same attributes of a prophet because they were prophets. Just like Jesus is the Son of God because He has the same nature, has the same attributes as the Father and He precedes from God the Father, that is why Jesus is the Son of God not because He had a christ awakening or became the Son of God at His baptism, He has always been God and will always be God.

The Father is not the Father because He begat Jesus, the Father did create a body for Jesus, but that did not make Him the Father. The phrase "Father of" means "originator or origin" it is again not because He created or made a body of Jesus, because Jesus is called the father as well, in Isaiah 9:6

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Jesus is the Everlasting Father because of His creation of the heavens and the earth, with that said. Jesus never became God or became where that He was the Son of God, He always was and is and is to come. He had no beginning and has no end, He is in His resurrection body now and for ever, that is why John says in I John 4:2-3

“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.”

Believing that Jesus has come in the flesh is part of saving faith, this is in the present tense, so it also means that He is still in His flesh or body, this is why Paul said in I Corinthians 12:3

“Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.”

This is not talking about sampling saying, Jesus is Lord, it is the same confession that Peter had in Matthew 16:16

“Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

You can only confess this by the awaking of the Spirit of God or Him causing you to see the kingdom of God.

 

[Depleted]

When did Jesus know he was the Son of God? Given that he is sinless how was he sinless as a child growing up?

The thing that amazes me is he was perfect -- never sinning. Never, ever sinning. We come out into the world and sin before our first word.

After all, since Jesus summed up doing God's will as loving God fully and others as yourself, than sinning can be summed up as loving self before God or others, right? Babies do that well. Since the only way they can communicate their needs is by crying, crying because they're hungry, or tired, or uncomfortable isn't sinning. It's communicating. But babies don't just cry then. They cry when they want attention. That's loving self first. And they're already doing that as babies.

Now, Jesus never sinned. Not. Ever. Even as a baby. So the only time he cried was when he needed something. And can you imagine being a parent and raising a child that you don't have to teach to share? Jesus just naturally shared. He gave love even as a little baby and toddler. Must have freaked out Mary and Joe quite often. He never asked to stay up "just a little longer," never tried to hide a lamp he accidentally broke, nor did he blame it on a sibling, never snuck out to play with his friends, never back talked his parents, never had a temper tantrum, and happily did his homework and chores.

Jesus always knew he was God. He wouldn't have been sinless had he not known.

 

[Depleted]

1. "how was he sinless as a child growing up?"

This question is easy.

He was sinless because he had no sin.
He had no sin nature, and he never committed any kind of sin in word or deed.

We cannot "relate" to this, but it's a very simple proposition, and it really contains no paradox... it's very straightforward.


2. "When did Jesus know he was the Son of God?"

This question is much more difficult.

This goes beyond what Jesus did; this is about what Jesus actually KNEW during various times in the incarnation.
I'm not sure anyone has an answer for this.

It took the early church fathers CENTURIES just to sort out some kind of reasonable FOUNDATION about how the two natures of Christ could even exist together in the same person.
This is so confusing and paradoxical, that for a long time they didn't even know what kinds of words to use to even discuss it.

So... it certainly seems he knew who he was by the age of 12.
But the big questions about how much he knew and when... kind of a mystery.
- When exactly did his mortal mind develop enough to comprehend who he was?
- Or was this in some way voluntarily hidden from him till a certain age?
- Or did he in some way always understand it?

I don't think we have answers to these things.

I think the answer to some things is that we just don't have answers.

I used to babysit, have younger siblings, and I'm an aunt. I've seen sinning children often. Jesus did not sin, that includes even when he was a baby, a toddler, and a child. I can't picture a sinless child, but I can picture a child who doesn't do certain kinds of sins. (I wouldn't beat someone up. My brother would. I was a rat. My brother wasn't.) Only thing required to picture Jesus is to picture one child who never sins. Not the perfect picture, but we can get some concept of what that must have been like.

 

[maxwel]

The thing that amazes me is he was perfect -- never sinning. Never, ever sinning. We come out into the world and sin before our first word.

After all, since Jesus summed up doing God's will as loving God fully and others as yourself, than sinning can be summed up as loving self before God or others, right? Babies do that well. Since the only way they can communicate their needs is by crying, crying because they're hungry, or tired, or uncomfortable isn't sinning. It's communicating. But babies don't just cry then. They cry when they want attention. That's loving self first. And they're already doing that as babies.

Now, Jesus never sinned. Not. Ever. Even as a baby. So the only time he cried was when he needed something. And can you imagine being a parent and raising a child that you don't have to teach to share? Jesus just naturally shared. He gave love even as a little baby and toddler. Must have freaked out Mary and Joe quite often. He never asked to stay up "just a little longer," never tried to hide a lamp he accidentally broke, nor did he blame it on a sibling, never snuck out to play with his friends, never back talked his parents, never had a temper tantrum, and happily did his homework and chores.

Jesus always knew he was God. He wouldn't have been sinless had he not known.

Of course Jesus never sinned.
But I don't think your conclusion logically follows your premise.



You said he wouldn't have been sinless if he had not known he was God,
therefore he was only sinless because he DID know he was God,
and therefore if he had NOT KNOWN he was God he WOULD have sinned.

You're claiming that if the holy sinless incarnate son of God, with no sin nature, had for any reason NOT RECOGNIZED he was God, he WOULD HAVE SINNED.

You're saying Jesus, the incarnate GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, whose very nature and being are completely HOLY, and GOOD, and RIGHTEOUS, who is ONLY LIGHT with NO DARKNESS IN HIM at all...
if he had somehow lacked a bit of knowledge, would have LOST ALL OF HIS DIVINE NATURE AND HOLINESS AND COMMITTED SIN???

I don't think that is going to work.




For tonight I'm going to assume it's just really late, and you're really tired, and maybe you were walking around your house, and you had the lights turned out, and you bumped your head on something really hard.
: )

Seriously though, when it's late and I'm really tired, I sometimes say something that sounds good, but when I look at it closer it doesn't quite work. Maybe that's all that happened here, maybe you're just tired.

We can talk more later.
And feel free to take this to PM.
I always enjoy our chats.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Not really, I've been asked that question a few times. Also is been said to me That Jesus just must have sinned as a child because all children sin..

That was the second question in my post.

Odd people ask odd questions and yes there are odd Christians

My question is "Why, when people have questions, don't people take their questions to God who can answer all things?". *sigh*

 

[BillG]

Hey guys, I think what the OP meant was this:

At what point in the INCARNATION did Jesus realize he was the Son of God (e.g. as an adult, a teen, a small child, a baby etc.)?

Put better than I did it

 

[Depleted]

Of course Jesus never sinned.
But I don't think your conclusion logically follows your premise.



You said he wouldn't have been sinless if he had not known he was God,
therefore he was only sinless because he DID know he was God,
and therefore if he had NOT KNOWN he was God he WOULD have sinned.

You're claiming that if the holy sinless incarnate son of God, with no sin nature, had for any reason NOT RECOGNIZED he was God, he WOULD HAVE SINNED.

You're saying Jesus, the incarnate GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, whose very nature and being are completely HOLY, and GOOD, and RIGHTEOUS, who is ONLY LIGHT with NO DARKNESS IN HIM at all...
if he had somehow lacked a bit of knowledge, would have LOST ALL OF HIS DIVINE NATURE AND HOLINESS AND COMMITTED SIN???

I don't think that is going to work.




For tonight I'm going to assume it's just really late, and you're really tired, and maybe you were walking around your house, and you had the lights turned out, and you bumped your head on something really hard.
: )

Seriously though, when it's late and I'm really tired, I sometimes say something that sounds good, but when I look at it closer it doesn't quite work. Maybe that's all that happened here, maybe you're just tired.

We can talk more later.
And feel free to take this to PM.
I always enjoy our chats.

I did imply that, didn't I?

Not exactly what I meant, but I'll be happy to use the excuse "I was tired." Not true. I mean, I was tired, but I just didn't suss that out enough to say it any other way than implying that.

Would he have sinned if he didn't know he was God? I don't know. Would I squat with my heels completely on the ground if I thought I were a boy? I don't recall trying. (Just getting in that position with my heels off the ground was enough for me when I was a girl. lol) But, I as far back as I can remember, I always knew I was a girl. Some things we don't need to be told, even when sometimes folks seem to want to tell us anyway. ("You can't swim." "You can't fly." "You aren't God." Boy, Mom really liked to state the obvious when I was growing up. lol)

I don't know if Jesus didn't sin because he was God, or he didn't sin knowing one sin would destroy all mankind forever. He ask Mary why she didn't know where he was when he was "lost" at 12 years old. And he did, later on, tell the Pharisees that he only did what his Father did. Did he only do what his Father did at a later age, or did he always know who his Father was? After all, it wasn't like Joseph was never part of his life, and he wasn't talking about Joe. I think he never sinned because he only did what he saw his Father doing. Always.

 

[BillG]

My question is "Why, when people have questions, don't people take their questions to God who can answer all things?". *sigh*

Because maybe those people are not believers are asking such questions.

 

[Depleted]

My question is "Why, when people have questions, don't people take their questions to God who can answer all things?". *sigh*

If you drive your car at the speed of light and then turn on your lights, what happens?

Yes. God can answer that question. BUT, he hasn't yet. So, I still wondered.

You don't ever wonder what 5-year-old Jesus was like? And, ask as many times as you want to the Lord, and I'm still pretty sure he won't give you full access. Sometimes we just like sussing out the full picture.

I actually do take most of my questions to him. Sitting quietly waiting for an answer doesn't work very often, so I find myself checking out people who did suss it out for years to see if they can come up with answers that do it for me. (For instance. I just finished reading Hosea, and I really want to know if his marriage worked out. It is connected to God, since the Lord is the one to tell him to marry a prostitute. It's a bit unclear, if God kept his wife, so did Hosea keep his?) And if I can't find an answer from scholars? I ask on here. Aren't you ever that nosy?

Because, if not, I have plenty of schnoz to make up for it. I've got enough nose to make an extra nose. lol

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

When did Jesus know he was the Son of God? Given that he is sinless how was he sinless as a child growing up?

There is scriptural evidence that while He was in His mothers womb He knew He was the Son of God.

And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: Luke 1:41

The incarnation of Jesus reveals Jesus was born with a divine nature and not a sin nature as we have. The scripture shows revelation and not information.

 

[MattforJesus]

When did Jesus know he was the Son of God? Given that he is sinless how was he sinless as a child growing up?

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,and the Bible calls Jesus a holy child.

Jesus was sinless His entire life being conceived by the Spirit,and He knew He was the Son of God His whole life,or at least He knew that He was with God,and a son of God,as a child,but I also believe that He knew He was the Son of God as soon as He could grasp that fact.

We know at 12 years old He said He must be about His Father's business,but I believe He knew He was the Son of God as soon as He could learn it,for it would of been related to Him by the Spirit since He was born,and as soon as the child Christ Jesus could properly understand it is when He understood it.

Can a child of 3 years old understand who are their parents,then the child Christ Jesus can understand who is His Father,and we know God gives visions,and dreams,and can relate things to us,so He would of done that with Jesus ever since He was born.

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God,and there was never a time that Jesus was not led of the Spirit.

John the Baptist received the Spirit from the womb,not conceived by the Spirit,and not to save him,but to give him the power to live right,and be prepared to prepare the way for Jesus in the future,so how much more would Jesus know of who He was at the earliest time possible.

It does not take a child 12 years to understand who are their parents,neither did it take Jesus that long to understand who is His Father.

Jesus was sinless as a child,and He had to be,for He was always led of the Spirit,and He would not be the Savior if He sinned even one time.

Of course if Jesus sinned before the age of accountability then it would not count,but He was always led of the Spirit so it was always God who led Him,and not of His own actions that are of doing wrong.

 

[Dan58]

Probably when his Mum told him that the "Son of a carpenter" label wasn't exactly true?

 

[maxwel]

I did imply that, didn't I?

Not exactly what I meant, but I'll be happy to use the excuse "I was tired." Not true. I mean, I was tired, but I just didn't suss that out enough to say it any other way than implying that.

Would he have sinned if he didn't know he was God? I don't know. Would I squat with my heels completely on the ground if I thought I were a boy? I don't recall trying. (Just getting in that position with my heels off the ground was enough for me when I was a girl. lol) But, I as far back as I can remember, I always knew I was a girl. Some things we don't need to be told, even when sometimes folks seem to want to tell us anyway. ("You can't swim." "You can't fly." "You aren't God." Boy, Mom really liked to state the obvious when I was growing up. lol)

I don't know if Jesus didn't sin because he was God, or he didn't sin knowing one sin would destroy all mankind forever. He ask Mary why she didn't know where he was when he was "lost" at 12 years old. And he did, later on, tell the Pharisees that he only did what his Father did. Did he only do what his Father did at a later age, or did he always know who his Father was? After all, it wasn't like Joseph was never part of his life, and he wasn't talking about Joe. I think he never sinned because he only did what he saw his Father doing. Always.

1. "Not exactly what I meant"

No worries, we all do that.


2. "Would he have sinned if he didn't know he was God?"

A. We can search the scripture, and investigate, and theorize, and debate about WHAT he knew and WHEN he knew it... that's logically good, bibilically good, etc etc.

B. However, regardless of whether or not he KNEW, as a small child, that he was God... he STILL COULD NOT HAVE SINNED.

- The holy and perfect God of the universe COULD NOT HAVE SINNED, under any circumstances... because he IS NOT CAPABLE OF SIN.

There are many things which God cannot do:
he cannot lie, he cannot sin, he cannot cease to be God, he cannot cease to exist... and a number of other things.

* God CANNOT SIN because it is contrary to his very nature, and it is something he actually is just not capable of doing.

* It is not that God CHOOSES not to sin, or he WITHHOLDS himself from sin because of his great willpower... but rather, sin is something of which he is not capable. For God, committing sin is logically impossible - it is a choice which, for God, does not exist.

 

[BillG]

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,and the Bible calls Jesus a holy child.

Jesus was sinless His entire life being conceived by the Spirit,and He knew He was the Son of God His whole life,or at least He knew that He was with God,and a son of God,as a child,but I also believe that He knew He was the Son of God as soon as He could grasp that fact.

We know at 12 years old He said He must be about His Father's business,but I believe He knew He was the Son of God as soon as He could learn it,for it would of been related to Him by the Spirit since He was born,and as soon as the child Christ Jesus could properly understand it is when He understood it.

Can a child of 3 years old understand who are their parents,then the child Christ Jesus can understand who is His Father,and we know God gives visions,and dreams,and can relate things to us,so He would of done that with Jesus ever since He was born.

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God,and there was never a time that Jesus was not led of the Spirit.

John the Baptist received the Spirit from the womb,not conceived by the Spirit,and not to save him,but to give him the power to live right,and be prepared to prepare the way for Jesus in the future,so how much more would Jesus know of who He was at the earliest time possible.

It does not take a child 12 years to understand who are their parents,neither did it take Jesus that long to understand who is His Father.

Jesus was sinless as a child,and He had to be,for He was always led of the Spirit,and He would not be the Savior if He sinned even one time.

Of course if Jesus sinned before the age of accountability then it would not count,but He was always led of the Spirit so it was always God who led Him,and not of His own actions that are of doing wrong.

Good post and you raise a point and an interesting one.

You say

Jesus was sinless as a child,and He had to be,for He was always led of the Spirit,and He would not be the Savior if He sinned even one time.

Of course if Jesus sinned before the age of accountability then it would not count,but He was always led of the Spirit so it was always God who led Him,and not of His own actions that are of doing wrong.

He was sinless otherwise he would not be the saviour, but if he sinned before the age of accountability then it would not count.
If you don't mind me saying so that is contradictory and leaves a door open. Not going at you but just thinking they leaves the door open to "OK he could have sinned then?


I agree with you in that I do not believe he sinned at all. Who and how I can't fathom.

What I do find interesting though your focus on him as a child being led by the spirit.

My wife leads the young kids youth work.

She is so passionate in her work and Jesus.
She talks with the kids about how they can walk like Jesus because they have the Holy Spirit in them if they believe in Jesus.

She has been rebuked a few times by parents. Just tell them Bible stories is the inference.

Your other interesting point is age of accountability.

 

[NayborBear]

Basically no-one has a clue. It is intelligent to question it though. I question the missing half of Jesus' life in the Bible.

The way I see it, Jesus still needed a number 1 or a number 2.

Ahhhh.....yes!....Jesus!...The missing years!

There have been "studies" addressing this matter. It is said, that Joseph of Aramathia, being a Tin merchant, industrialist, entrepreneur, etc., was reported to have sailing along with him, some young lad, on at least 1, and probably more sojourns to "some land", which is called England today. So much that, either during, or after, Jesus' time on earth, they made up songs, erected shrines, and built at least 1 Church. Best of my recollection on the matter. <span style="font-family:comic sans ms;"><font size="3">[video=youtube;Inr-jskxm1I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr-jskxm1I[/video]

 

[Depleted]

1. "Not exactly what I meant"

No worries, we all do that.


2. "Would he have sinned if he didn't know he was God?"

A. We can search the scripture, and investigate, and theorize, and debate about WHAT he knew and WHEN he knew it... that's logically good, bibilically good, etc etc.

B. However, regardless of whether or not he KNEW, as a small child, that he was God... he STILL COULD NOT HAVE SINNED.

- The holy and perfect God of the universe COULD NOT HAVE SINNED, under any circumstances... because he IS NOT CAPABLE OF SIN.

There are many things which God cannot do:
he cannot lie, he cannot sin, he cannot cease to be God, he cannot cease to exist... and a number of other things.

* God CANNOT SIN because it is contrary to his very nature, and it is something he actually is just not capable of doing.

* It is not that God CHOOSES not to sin, or he WITHHOLDS himself from sin because of his great willpower... but rather, sin is something of which he is not capable. For God, committing sin is logically impossible - it is a choice which, for God, does not exist.

I get you on one side. (We can't do stuff against our nature.) BUT, if he could not sin, then where does that leave "tempted?"

Truthfully, I think those things Satan offered him in the wilderness were dumb enough that it was no big temptation. He gets all the kingdoms of the world? He already has all the kingdoms of the world. Angels will stop him from hitting the ground if he jumps off a high height? Common sense, (now that I'm an adult), tells me I don't want to jump off high heights.

But the crying and sweating in the garden was real temptation. Jesus knew all the pain and sorrow he would face the next day. Personally, that's enough to make me say, "Never mind," but he's God so the one thing that probably bothered him the most was being away from the Ttrinity, even for a short time. Glorifying God as God for eternity must truly bring joy even Scrooge didn't feel on Christmas Day, even brides and grooms don't feel on wedding days, or when the baby is born. THAT, seems to me, would be his very real temptation, and if he could not sin, then why sweat over it?

I'm never tempted by liver, because I don't like it and no one could ever get me to eat it, but chocolate? Chocolate gets me where I live. Being without the Trinity for even that brief moment at death, would be his chocolate. The thing that could tempt him to not do what is within his nature to do. If it wasn't within his nature to do, then was he never tempted? Was life just one big piece of liver to him?

 

[maxwel]

I get you on one side. (We can't do stuff against our nature.) BUT, if he could not sin, then where does that leave "tempted?"

Truthfully, I think those things Satan offered him in the wilderness were dumb enough that it was no big temptation. He gets all the kingdoms of the world? He already has all the kingdoms of the world. Angels will stop him from hitting the ground if he jumps off a high height? Common sense, (now that I'm an adult), tells me I don't want to jump off high heights.

But the crying and sweating in the garden was real temptation. Jesus knew all the pain and sorrow he would face the next day. Personally, that's enough to make me say, "Never mind," but he's God so the one thing that probably bothered him the most was being away from the Ttrinity, even for a short time. Glorifying God as God for eternity must truly bring joy even Scrooge didn't feel on Christmas Day, even brides and grooms don't feel on wedding days, or when the baby is born. THAT, seems to me, would be his very real temptation, and if he could not sin, then why sweat over it?

I'm never tempted by liver, because I don't like it and no one could ever get me to eat it, but chocolate? Chocolate gets me where I live. Being without the Trinity for even that brief moment at death, would be his chocolate. The thing that could tempt him to not do what is within his nature to do. If it wasn't within his nature to do, then was he never tempted? Was life just one big piece of liver to him?

If Christ was actually incapable of sin, then how was he tempted, doesn't that nullify the temptation?

No

Even if you would NEVER even CONSIDER eating a plate of liver, I could still try to tempt you with it.

When you come right down to it, that's all that we're really dealing with.

Christ COULD NOT sin, therefore any temptation by Satan, though the temptation posed a real and genuine choice, was a pointless effort when presented to Christ.




Fish Driving Cars

Christ, because of his DIVINE NATURE, could not sin, just as a fish. because of his FISH NATURE, could not jump into my car and drive it around.

A fish does not CHOOSE, through his WILLPOWER, to refrain from driving my car - but rather, a fish just cannot logically, in any way, drive my car. It is beyond the fish's nature, and thus a logical impossibility.
And thus Christ could not, EVER, do something beyond his nature, as it is logically impossible for him to do... just as a fish cannot drive my car.



So why was Jesus tempted, if he could not actually sin?

1. Christ, in order to be perfect, had to face temptation and overcome it... regardless of whether or not overcoming temptation was any great moral difficulty.
When Christ came to earth all of this theology was no longer theory, or something in the mind of God... it was all being ACTED OUT IN FRONT OF US.

Christ could not be tested and overcome temptation unless there was temptation.
It is irrelevant whether or not the temptation was a struggle for him.. he just had to be presented with "temptations", which are "wrong choices", and he had to ignore the bad choices and do right.

The DEGREE OF PERSONAL STRUGGLE has nothing to do with it - he just had to be presented with sins he could choose, and he had to avoid them.
For a "human" to be good, he must be presented with evil, and he must be allowed to make choices.
And so Christ, as the perfect man, had to be presented with the same choices to do evil... irrespective of whether or not those choices were difficult.


2. The fact that Satan's temptations were pointless doesn't mean we should change our views on this... Satan has ALWAYS done pointless things.

Satan does many things which are pointless.

Right now Satan is fighting a war against God which he ALREADY KNOWS HE WILL LOSE!

ALL OF HIS ENDEAVORS ARE CRAZY & POINTLESS!

But he still does them.

Why?

I don't know.
My personal belief is that his great sin has made him mad... he is not a rational being.
That's how it looks to me.

But regardless of WHY he does pointless things,
he DOES do pointless things.
We have overwhelming proof of this.

Therefore, if tempting Christ was pointless, and Satan did it anyway,
this should not in any way change our theology.
Satan is CONSTANTLY doing pointless things... probably because his sin has driven him mad.

 

[oldethennew]

God is a Spiritual being, He is our Creator, He does and will do whatever it takes
to get us in line, 'those whom He calls in their lifetime', and those whom He will
awaken and call in the 2nd Resurrection to dwell with Him, being a part of His family
for Eternity..,

 

[Depleted]

If Christ was actually incapable of sin, then how was he tempted, doesn't that nullify the temptation?

No

Even if you would NEVER even CONSIDER eating a plate of liver, I could still try to tempt you with it.

When you come right down to it, that's all that we're really dealing with.

Christ COULD NOT sin, therefore any temptation by Satan, though the temptation posed a real and genuine choice, was a pointless effort when presented to Christ.




Fish Driving Cars

Christ, because of his DIVINE NATURE, could not sin, just as a fish. because of his FISH NATURE, could not jump into my car and drive it around.

A fish does not CHOOSE, through his WILLPOWER, to refrain from driving my car - but rather, a fish just cannot logically, in any way, drive my car. It is beyond the fish's nature, and thus a logical impossibility.
And thus Christ could not, EVER, do something beyond his nature, as it is logically impossible for him to do... just as a fish cannot drive my car.



So why was Jesus tempted, if he could not actually sin?

1. Christ, in order to be perfect, had to face temptation and overcome it... regardless of whether or not overcoming temptation was any great moral difficulty.
When Christ came to earth all of this theology was no longer theory, or something in the mind of God... it was all being ACTED OUT IN FRONT OF US.

Christ could not be tested and overcome temptation unless there was temptation.
It is irrelevant whether or not the temptation was a struggle for him.. he just had to be presented with "temptations", which are "wrong choices", and he had to ignore the bad choices and do right.

The DEGREE OF PERSONAL STRUGGLE has nothing to do with it - he just had to be presented with sins he could choose, and he had to avoid them.
For a "human" to be good, he must be presented with evil, and he must be allowed to make choices.
And so Christ, as the perfect man, had to be presented with the same choices to do evil... irrespective of whether or not those choices were difficult.


2. The fact that Satan's temptations were pointless doesn't mean we should change our views on this... Satan has ALWAYS done pointless things.

Satan does many things which are pointless.

Right now Satan is fighting a war against God which he ALREADY KNOWS HE WILL LOSE!

ALL OF HIS ENDEAVORS ARE CRAZY & POINTLESS!

But he still does them.

Why?

I don't know.
My personal belief is that his great sin has made him mad... he is not a rational being.
That's how it looks to me.

But regardless of WHY he does pointless things,
he DOES do pointless things.
We have overwhelming proof of this.

Therefore, if tempting Christ was pointless, and Satan did it anyway,
this should not in any way change our theology.
Satan is CONSTANTLY doing pointless things... probably because his sin has driven him mad.

Gotcha all the way until the end...

BUT what was that deal in the garden then? He appeared to be wrestling something out. If he was going to do it because that's his nature, then why the tears and sweat? I've been to the point of tears over don't-want-to even knowing what I don't want is good for me, but never to the point of sweating. (Might have helped that at my biggest moments of don't-want-to came when it was cold, so couldn't sweat. But my biggest don't-want-to moments always came with no other choice. At least choices that fit into my nature. Like, I could have just given up and done nothing, but that's not my nature.)

(And, by now, we've kind of passed Bill's question, but I just don't get it. And, I'm really not arguing anything. I honestly just don't get that.)

 

[ChristWhoLivesInMe]

How does He willingly choose to come to earth.. then not realize who He is until a certain time... Why or how would God not be aware that He is God? How does the process go? How do you regain awareness? Set a timer?

Nothing indicates He was never aware..

He later said He watched Satan fall like lightening.. He was fully aware of who He was. Had He gaps in memory He wouldn't be all knowing, know the end from the beginning etc.

Why add to as though it's mysterious. It's not. He's God and knows all things. Never does He not know

Jesus wasn't aware of everything. He could not tell his disciples when he would return.

"But that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son of man, but the Father." Mark 13:32