When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

[lamad]

Right: John "wept much" because "no man was found." That search ended in failure.

WHY did it end in failure. Can you explain why?

it didn’t end in failure brother christ appeared and became worthy that’s what he did on earth became a man , loved perfectly , have the New Testament , died to remit sins according to the Old Testament and so fulfill the bulk of prophecy

when in the nest sentance it says “ weep
Not for the lion of Judah , the seed of David hath prevailed “

it didn’t end in failure brother [/quote]

Sure it did. You are not reading it closely.

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Verse five is LATER after time passed. We don't know if John wept for a day or for a week or longer. All I can tell us is, when I asked God why we needed to know that John wept, and why much, He answered and said: "It shows timing," and "It also shows the movement of time."

We see the movement of time here: One search ended in failure but another search was started while John was weeping much. It was LATER, in the next search that Jesus was found. This is proven by Jesus' question to me.

“John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Jesus himself asked: "why was I not found in that first search?" In other words, there was a first search and then a subsequent search. The question is, why was Jesus not found in the search John watched? He wrote "no man was found" proving that search ended in failure.

“ weep Not for the lion of Judah , the seed of David hath prevailed “

that’s showing us Jesus being born as promised in scripture ,

No brother. This is not His birth. It is His resurrection. Many men have been born. But ONLY ONE MAN raised from the dead under His own power! Follow the text!
Jesus NOT seen at the right hand of the father - showing that He was on earth or under the earth.
The Holy Spirit there in the throne room - showing us that Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.
Jesus NOT found worthy - showing us a time before He rose from the dead
Jesus FOUND worthy - showing us He just rose from the Dead
Jesus suddenly appearing in the throne room - showing the time He just ascended.
Jesus sending the Holy Spirit down - pinpointing the time Jesus got the book and began opening seals.

christ appeared and became worthy that’s what he did on earth became a man

No, read the text: "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book "

What did Jesus prevail over just before He ascended back into the throne room? Of course, He prevailed over death: He rose from the dead. That is what made Him worthy. (the qualifications were probably written on the outside of the book.)

 

[lamad]

Daniel saw far away brother the entire gospel is proof that there was one worthy

Worthy as King of Kings and Lord of Lords - YES!

But worthy to take the book and open the seals? NO! Not when that first search was going on. He was not found worthy until He prevailed over death and rose from the Dead to become the Redeemer.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Right: John "wept much" because "no man was found." That search ended in failure.

WHY did it end in failure. Can you explain why?

Next, "stuff" happened between John weeping and Christ suddenly appearing. You left that out.



Not bad! But no, in the Old I think Jesus as the second person of the Godhead would have still be seen at the right hand of the Father. If we consider eternities past to eternities future, all that time and beyond time, there was one tiny speck of time when the second person of the Godhead was NOT at the Farther's right hand, and that was during the 32 years He was on earth or under the earth. So chapter 4 can only be while Christ was down here.



I agree this book with 7 seals was created in the court room of heaven but maybe not before creation. I would say after Adam's sin. Why? Because I think seals 2-4 show Satan's influence: I think he demanded of God that if God send out the church, he have a crack at stopping the gospel inside that 1/4 of the earth.

Since I believe seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel, I thing we can see the effects.


Brilliant! Few people see that the 1/4 is how God limited their theater of operation.

Perhaps you missed something: it is only the last three horses and riders that fall under "power was given unto them..." These, the Red, the Black and the Pale ride together to try and stop the advance of the gospel, but the white horse and rider IS the gospel.


I don't think these four horses and riders are connected to the four seen by Zech. Their purposes are different.


So you don't see time stamps in Revelation?
Jesus prevailing to become worthy tells me Jesus just rose from the dead.
Jesus suddenly appearing in heaven (shortly after He prevailed over death) is the moment of His first ascension.
The 6th seal is the start of the Day of His wrath.
The 7th seal is the marker for the start of the 70th week.
The 7th trumpet is the marker for the midpoint of the week.
The 7th vial is the marker that ends the 70th week.

I see time and the movement of time all through Revelation.


I see NO connection between the war in heaven (before Adam) and the 6th trumpet where 1/3 of the people are killed - except the 1/3. I don't think that is significant. I do wonder if the 6th trumpet is the parable of the tares being carried out.

I was impressed by your post.

Worthy as King of Kings and Lord of Lords - YES!

But worthy to take the book and open the seals? NO! Not when that first search was going on. He was not found worthy until He prevailed over death and rose from the Dead to become the Redeemer.

brother the seals are on his hand before the lamb appears he’s sitting on the throne , the lamb appearing is this

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬

he became flesh , was born a man in order to become what we needed to be saved a Christ, a perfect mediator between God and man one without sin and who have his perfect life to purchase our imperfect life for God and redeem us to righteousness.

the lamb is Jesus after he loves and was crucified and rose up and then went into heaven.

I. Price you quickly ruled out other prophecy earlier regarding the four heavenly spirits . I think you would benifit greatly by allowing other prophecy into your thinking about revelation try the book of Ezekiel forminstance and look at it beside revelation just one quick example of several with these two books

And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.



As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.


And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.


And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about

. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.”

‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭1:4-5, 10, 18, 22, 25-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Ezekiel is seeing this from the perspective of the earth . He only sees the four creatures , thier faces , sees all thier eyes , but he sees a firmament above thier heads and above the firmament one resembling a man upon a throne . Sees it as if we’re looking up from earth into it


Ezekiel is looking from earth up into heaven not seeing the revelation but seeing a prophetic long distance vision of what we’re seeing closely in revelation

so johns view of the four creatures is from above firmament and John is looking back down into earth from heaven so he’s seeing it revealed the same vision of God but from above the formanment and Ezekiels looking up through the crystal sea

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.


And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:

and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ezekiel , zechariah , Daniel , Micah and Joel are good prophetic books to find more detail of revelations meaning we get the earthly prophetic view which offers understanding and also the revealed meaning in Christ which offers understanding that works to reveal the meaning of prophecy and give us a hope for life

anyways brother I respect and appreciate your responses , it’s only an observation I think you would benifit by searching a lot of the key terms in revelation that seem mysterious they are all pretty well explained like the four spirits or two witnesses

revelation seemingly out of place description

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

zechariahs priorly established description

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The revealed identities of these two in the gospel

“And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elijah: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:29-31, 35‬ ‭

Then revelations details really drives it home who they are

“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Elijah stopped the rain for three and a half years during his prophecy , Moses turned water to blood and cast plagues on the earth.

then we see Elijah represented by e prophets and Moses by the law which both witness of Christ

 

[Ahwatukee]

brother the seals are on his hand before the lamb appears he’s sitting on the throne , the lamb appearing is this

Good day, Pilgrimshope,

You are spinning your wheels with lamad! For though tries to impress upon people that he knows what he is talking about, he knows nothing and does not support scripture with scripture. All he has done is brought in nonsense teachings such as John's weeping and how many times that he counts the dragon being mentioned and all this by self proclaimed direct communication with God.

There was no literal search to find someone who was worthy to open the scroll, as it was for lack of a better word, rhetorical. For there was no one else in all of history who lived a perfect sinless life as a human being. And there is only one God who became a human being, so that He could represent us and shedding His blood on behalf of all believers.

So there was no actual, literal, search going on throughout heaven and on the earth and under the earth. All that this Lamad is doing is bringing in strange teachings, which are baseless conjecture. It is meant to highlight Christ, as the One who shed His blood.

The seals are opened by the Lamb/Jesus as the first set of plagues of God's wrath, with the trumpets and bowl judgments to follow.

1st Seal/Rider on the white horse: Symbolically represents the antichrist who has not yet been revealed. There are some who have claimed that it represents antichrist's, however, the scripture does not bear that out. It is speaking about an individual who is given a crown, who holds a bow and he comes out to conquer. The 'He' is singular not plural. The rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse revealed in Rev.19:11-21, which is the Lord. Just understanding that this 1st seal is the antichrist destroys lamad's claim. But let's go on ....

2nd Seal/Rider on the red horse: At the opening of this seal peace is taken from the earth so that men will kill one another. And I don't think that this is just speaking about the militaries of different nations fighting one another, but people against people world-wide, as well. Once this peace is removed, it ain't commin' back. Therefore, if this seal had already taken place, the world would still be in that state.

3rd Seal/Rider on the black horse: This 3rd seal will be world-wide famine due to food shortage, so that a days wages will only buy a small amount of food, meaning that a days worth of food will be very expensive. We haven't seen this take place.

4th Seal/Rider on the pale green horse, with Hades following close behind: At the opening of the4th Seal, Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earths population and that's not over centuries, but will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. 25% of the earths population killed in a short amount of time. Once again, this hasn't happened.

5th Seal: Martyr's under the altar in heaven: These will be saints (not the church) who will have been killed in the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They are told to wait awhile until their brothers and fellow servants are killed just as they had been, which is referring to the saints who come out of the great tribulation

At the opening of the 6th seal, it is announced that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" The error that many make here, is that they only consider God's wrath as beginning after the announcement, which is false. It is a general announcement in regards to all of the plagues of wrath that will have previously taken place, as well as the ones yet to come, namely, the 7th Seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. The announcement of God's wrath encompasses all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are not going to be common occurrences. But will be unprecedented events that will grab the worlds attention.

Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. Since the Lamb/Jesus is initiating God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, then the promise that the Lord made to come back and take believers to the places that He prepared for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3), must take place prior to that first seal being opened. For we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

Lamad knows nothing about Revelation! I know that the Lord did not tell him these things, because what he is teaching is not supported by scripture. I believe that the only way that he will understand by seeing how everything unfolds.

 

[Oseas3]

So ask a question.

Around 32 AD Jesus rose from the dead and became worthy to take the book and open the seals! Then he TOOK the book from the Father, and began opening seals....you don't consider these things significant?

The 7 Churches of Asia, and also the Church of Rome, were founded by the Apostle Paul, these churches did not existed yet in the year 32. The things that John saw in the 7 Churches and he wrote were occurring around year 95 AD, not 32. Furthermore, Paulo Apostle knew JESUS only time after His ascension.

Revelation 1:v.11 says: What thou seest (year 95 AD, not 32) , write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.



Revelation was showed to John around year 95 AD, at that time most churches were already corrupting. The Church of Rome had been apostatized and corrupted by Satan completely, and the 7 Churches of Asia were being influenced even by the idolatries of the church of Rome, the church of Rome would be the eighth, but it was left out because the church of Rome was already completely disapproved by JESUS.


About the events above described, and the corruption of the Church of Rome, see what the Word of GOD reveals by the VISUAL testimony of Apostle John: 1 John 2:v.18-21

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They (the Church of Rome) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Fellow in Christ

Oseas

 

[Oseas3]

Based on above, the Antichrist was born from the church, the church of Rome linked to the Roman Empire.

 

[lamad]

brother the seals are on his hand before the lamb appears he’s sitting on the throne , the lamb appearing is this

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬

he became flesh , was born a man in order to become what we needed to be saved a Christ, a perfect mediator between God and man one without sin and who have his perfect life to purchase our imperfect life for God and redeem us to righteousness.

the lamb is Jesus after he loves and was crucified and rose up and then went into heaven.

I. Price you quickly ruled out other prophecy earlier regarding the four heavenly spirits . I think you would benifit greatly by allowing other prophecy into your thinking about revelation try the book of Ezekiel forminstance and look at it beside revelation just one quick example of several with these two books

And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.



As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.


And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.


And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about

. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.”

‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭1:4-5, 10, 18, 22, 25-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Ezekiel is seeing this from the perspective of the earth . He only sees the four creatures , thier faces , sees all thier eyes , but he sees a firmament above thier heads and above the firmament one resembling a man upon a throne . Sees it as if we’re looking up from earth into it


Ezekiel is looking from earth up into heaven not seeing the revelation but seeing a prophetic long distance vision of what we’re seeing closely in revelation

so johns view of the four creatures is from above firmament and John is looking back down into earth from heaven so he’s seeing it revealed the same vision of God but from above the formanment and Ezekiels looking up through the crystal sea

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.


And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:

and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ezekiel , zechariah , Daniel , Micah and Joel are good prophetic books to find more detail of revelations meaning we get the earthly prophetic view which offers understanding and also the revealed meaning in Christ which offers understanding that works to reveal the meaning of prophecy and give us a hope for life

anyways brother I respect and appreciate your responses , it’s only an observation I think you would benifit by searching a lot of the key terms in revelation that seem mysterious they are all pretty well explained like the four spirits or two witnesses

revelation seemingly out of place description

“These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

zechariahs priorly established description

“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭4:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The revealed identities of these two in the gospel

“And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elijah: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:29-31, 35‬ ‭

Then revelations details really drives it home who they are

“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:

and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Elijah stopped the rain for three and a half years during his prophecy , Moses turned water to blood and cast plagues on the earth.

then we see Elijah represented by e prophets and Moses by the law which both witness of Christ

I will agree that others in the bible also saw the four living creatures.

brother the seals are on his hand before the lamb appears he’s sitting on the throne , the lamb appearing is this

I am not really sure what you are saying here. It is the Father on the throne, and when seen, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. I can't think of a verse that says it, but without a doubt Jesus has a throne beside the Father's because some verse say He went to sit at the right hand of the Father. My point has always been that Jesus was NOT SEEN when John saw into the throne room in chapter 4. That is the very point GOD is making as we read it. The Holy Spirit is there but the SON is not there. It is showing a time while the SON is on earth.

John is very clear as to when Jesus took the Book from the Father's hand - it was the first thing He did when He ascended back into the throne room.

QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4543679, member: 300996"]
you quickly ruled out other prophecy earlier regarding the four heavenly spirits
[/quote]
The purpose for those four spirits in Zechariah was a different purpose than the horses in Revelation. I am not sure these in Revelation are real horses and riders: they may be symbolic horses. For example, the early church mostly spread the gospel on foot. The first and second world wars (the Red horse) were not started by a rider on a horse.

I suspect Ezekiel was seeing a vision when He saw the four Beasts and the Father on the throne.

QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4543679, member: 300996"]
Elijah stopped the rain for three and a half years during his prophecy , Moses turned water to blood and cast plagues on the earth.
[/quote]
We could guess - and many people do - as to who the Two Witnesses will be, but John does not tell us so I don't say. If I had to guess I would say the two men that never died, and Moses was not one of those.

 

[lamad]

The 7 Churches of Asia, and also the Church of Rome, were founded by the Apostle Paul, these churches did not existed yet in the year 32. The things that John saw in the 7 Churches and he wrote were occurring around year 95 AD, not 32. Furthermore, Paulo Apostle knew JESUS only time after His ascension.

Revelation 1:v.11 says: What thou seest (year 95 AD, not 32) , write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.



Revelation was showed to John around year 95 AD, at that time most churches were already corrupting. The Church of Rome had been apostatized and corrupted by Satan completely, and the 7 Churches of Asia were being influenced even by the idolatries of the church of Rome, the church of Rome would be the eighth, but it was left out because the church of Rome was already completely disapproved by JESUS.


About the events above described, and the corruption of the Church of Rome, see what the Word of GOD reveals by the VISUAL testimony of Apostle John: 1 John 2:v.18-21

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They (the Church of Rome) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Fellow in Christ

Oseas

I believe John saw this vision around 95 AD. So we agree. It is probably the only thing we will agree on.

A vision can be of the past, the present or the future - or all of them together. We determine the time of what is seen by things in the vision. For example, John saw - in this vision of around 95 AD:

A throne room with the Father, but Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father.
The Holy Spirit IN the throne room - when in 95 AD we would expect Him to have been sent down.

So far, in chapter 4, the time inside the vision is pointing to a time while Jesus was on earth and before He ascended to send the Holy Spirit down. So John is seeing a vision of around 32 AD but is seeing this vision in 95 AD. See how simple this is?

So what He saw (in 95 AD) He wrote in a book in 95 AD and sent it to churches in 95 AD. But what John SAW in his vision of the throne room, and wrote in chapter 4, was speaking of a time before Christ rose from the dead. We know that from chapter 5 when we read that in a search for one worthy to take the book, NO MAN WAS FOUND - so the timing at that moment of time - the time of the search John watched that ended in failure - was before Christ rose from the dead. See how simple this is?

But then TIME PASSED: another search was made and Jesus was then found worthy to take the book. It is very simple: Jesus had just risen from the dead - not in reality but IN THE VISION - showing the readers the TIMING of Jesus getting the book and opening the first seal.

John then saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Time inside the vision: Around 32 AD. See how simple this is?

 

[lamad]

Good day, Pilgrimshope,

You are spinning your wheels with lamad! For though tries to impress upon people that he knows what he is talking about, he knows nothing and does not support scripture with scripture. All he has done is brought in nonsense teachings such as John's weeping and how many times that he counts the dragon being mentioned and all this by self proclaimed direct communication with God.

There was no literal search to find someone who was worthy to open the scroll, as it was for lack of a better word, rhetorical. For there was no one else in all of history who lived a perfect sinless life as a human being. And there is only one God who became a human being, so that He could represent us and shedding His blood on behalf of all believers.

So there was no actual, literal, search going on throughout heaven and on the earth and under the earth. All that this Lamad is doing is bringing in strange teachings, which are baseless conjecture. It is meant to highlight Christ, as the One who shed His blood.

The seals are opened by the Lamb/Jesus as the first set of plagues of God's wrath, with the trumpets and bowl judgments to follow.

1st Seal/Rider on the white horse: Symbolically represents the antichrist who has not yet been revealed. There are some who have claimed that it represents antichrist's, however, the scripture does not bear that out. It is speaking about an individual who is given a crown, who holds a bow and he comes out to conquer. The 'He' is singular not plural. The rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse revealed in Rev.19:11-21, which is the Lord. Just understanding that this 1st seal is the antichrist destroys lamad's claim. But let's go on ....

2nd Seal/Rider on the red horse: At the opening of this seal peace is taken from the earth so that men will kill one another. And I don't think that this is just speaking about the militaries of different nations fighting one another, but people against people world-wide, as well. Once this peace is removed, it ain't commin' back. Therefore, if this seal had already taken place, the world would still be in that state.

3rd Seal/Rider on the black horse: This 3rd seal will be world-wide famine due to food shortage, so that a days wages will only buy a small amount of food, meaning that a days worth of food will be very expensive. We haven't seen this take place.

4th Seal/Rider on the pale green horse, with Hades following close behind: At the opening of the4th Seal, Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earths population and that's not over centuries, but will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. 25% of the earths population killed in a short amount of time. Once again, this hasn't happened.

5th Seal: Martyr's under the altar in heaven: These will be saints (not the church) who will have been killed in the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They are told to wait awhile until their brothers and fellow servants are killed just as they had been, which is referring to the saints who come out of the great tribulation

At the opening of the 6th seal, it is announced that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" The error that many make here, is that they only consider God's wrath as beginning after the announcement, which is false. It is a general announcement in regards to all of the plagues of wrath that will have previously taken place, as well as the ones yet to come, namely, the 7th Seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. The announcement of God's wrath encompasses all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are not going to be common occurrences. But will be unprecedented events that will grab the worlds attention.

Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. Since the Lamb/Jesus is initiating God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, then the promise that the Lord made to come back and take believers to the places that He prepared for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3), must take place prior to that first seal being opened. For we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

Lamad knows nothing about Revelation! I know that the Lord did not tell him these things, because what he is teaching is not supported by scripture. I believe that the only way that he will understand by seeing how everything unfolds.

You are spinning your wheels with lamad! For though tries to impress upon people that he knows what he is talking about, he knows nothing

And you say this because what you wrote did not line up with scripture and I saw through it. Are you saying now that John did not weep? Better take another look. Did you not read?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I am a sheep and I hear His voice. It is scripture. The fact that you don't believe what Jesus said to me shows that your beliefs are off from the plumb line of scripture. You can scoff and John weeping much, but it is a fact of scripture.

By the way, I was told by the Master to count how many times the Dragon was mentioned. I obeyed. His point was to show me that in general, chapter 12 was God introducing John to the Dragon. I hope you at least got that part right.

There was no literal search to find someone who was worthy to open the scroll

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

I will go with what is written. You can symbolize this or spiritualize it if you choose: I won't. I believe John that this happened just as written.

All that this Lamad is doing is bringing in strange teachings, which are baseless conjecture

I will stick close to what is written. If others go off on tangents, it is on them. I teach scripture as shown above. It is an absolute fact that John wept. You can ask Him when you see him.

The seals are opened by the Lamb/Jesus as the first set of plagues of God's wrath

This is opinion based on human reasoning and imagination, not on scripture. God's wrath starts with the Day of His wrath, and that does not begin until the 6th seal. The truth is, at the first seal, God and John are at the time of the church sent out - Matthew 28 - "God you therefore and teach all nations" - after Jesus opened that first seal so it would be LEGAL to send out the church. It is a complete myth that the "trib" starts at the first seal. Anyone can pull verses out of context and make them say anything. IN CONTEXT the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - as we read in Rev. 5. I guess in your theory God is angry with His martyrs! (the 5th seal)

 

[lamad]

Good day, Pilgrimshope,

...

1st Seal/Rider on the white horse: Symbolically represents the antichrist who has not yet been revealed. There are some who have claimed that it represents antichrist's, however, the scripture does not bear that out. It is speaking about an individual who is given a crown, who holds a bow and he comes out to conquer. The 'He' is singular not plural. The rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse revealed in Rev.19:11-21, which is the Lord. Just understanding that this 1st seal is the antichrist destroys lamad's claim. But let's go on ....

2nd Seal/Rider on the red horse: At the opening of this seal peace is taken from the earth so that men will kill one another. And I don't think that this is just speaking about the militaries of different nations fighting one another, but people against people world-wide, as well. Once this peace is removed, it ain't commin' back. Therefore, if this seal had already taken place, the world would still be in that state.

3rd Seal/Rider on the black horse: This 3rd seal will be world-wide famine due to food shortage, so that a days wages will only buy a small amount of food, meaning that a days worth of food will be very expensive. We haven't seen this take place.

4th Seal/Rider on the pale green horse, with Hades following close behind: At the opening of the4th Seal, Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earths population and that's not over centuries, but will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. 25% of the earths population killed in a short amount of time. Once again, this hasn't happened.

5th Seal: Martyr's under the altar in heaven: These will be saints (not the church) who will have been killed in the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They are told to wait awhile until their brothers and fellow servants are killed just as they had been, which is referring to the saints who come out of the great tribulation

At the opening of the 6th seal, it is announced that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" The error that many make here, is that they only consider God's wrath as beginning after the announcement, which is false. It is a general announcement in regards to all of the plagues of wrath that will have previously taken place, as well as the ones yet to come, namely, the 7th Seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. The announcement of God's wrath encompasses all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are not going to be common occurrences. But will be unprecedented events that will grab the worlds attention.

Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. Since the Lamb/Jesus is initiating God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, then the promise that the Lord made to come back and take believers to the places that He prepared for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3), must take place prior to that first seal being opened. For we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

Lamad knows nothing about Revelation! I know that the Lord did not tell him these things, because what he is teaching is not supported by scripture. I believe that the only way that he will understand by seeing how everything unfolds.

the white horse: Symbolically represents the antichrist...that this 1st seal is the antichrist destroys lamad's claim.

In contraposition to the above: what the scriptures really say:
5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. [Jesus ascended]
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. [Jesus gets the book]
6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. [Jesus opens the first seal]
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Jesus ascended.
He sent the Holy Spirit down.
He took the book from the Father
He began opening the seals.

Trying to add 2000 years to these verses is adding the the Book, and John gave a warning about that. IN CONTEXT this first seal was opened around 32 AD.

White: John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. Ahwatukee seems to imagine that God would use white 16 times for righteousness or Godliness and then once for evil or deception. NEVER HAPPEN! OF COURSE, if the Antichrist got to choose his own color, he would chose white to copy Jesus, but this is GOD'S book and the Antichrist did not get to chose his color. In fact, God chose fiery red for his color.

The white horse is to represent something righteous. The ONLY thing God considered righteous on earth in 32 AD was the infant church. God had commanded the church to take the gospel to the nations. Satan, as the god of this world, would be in the way, so the church HAD to overcome or conquer.

The crown is a victor's crown - like one given to the winner at the games. It represents ultimate victory - which fits the CHURCH, not the Antichrist Beast.

Finally, John's first mention of the Antichrist Beast is in chapter 13! So Ahwatukee is somewhere in our future in chapter 6 while God is at the infant church. John and God will finally get to the Antichrist beast at the midpoint of the week. It is when the man of sin will finally be revealed so the world will know who he is.

 

[lamad]

...

2nd Seal/Rider on the red horse: At the opening of this seal peace is taken from the earth so that men will kill one another. And I don't think that this is just speaking about the militaries of different nations fighting one another, but people against people world-wide, as well. Once this peace is removed, it ain't commin' back. Therefore, if this seal had already taken place, the world would still be in that state.

3rd Seal/Rider on the black horse: This 3rd seal will be world-wide famine due to food shortage, so that a days wages will only buy a small amount of food, meaning that a days worth of food will be very expensive. We haven't seen this take place.

4th Seal/Rider on the pale green horse, with Hades following close behind: At the opening of the4th Seal, Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earths population and that's not over centuries, but will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. 25% of the earths population killed in a short amount of time. Once again, this hasn't happened.

5th Seal: Martyr's under the altar in heaven: These will be saints (not the church) who will have been killed in the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They are told to wait awhile until their brothers and fellow servants are killed just as they had been, which is referring to the saints who come out of the great tribulation

At the opening of the 6th seal, it is announced that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" The error that many make here, is that they only consider God's wrath as beginning after the announcement, which is false. It is a general announcement in regards to all of the plagues of wrath that will have previously taken place, as well as the ones yet to come, namely, the 7th Seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. The announcement of God's wrath encompasses all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are not going to be common occurrences. But will be unprecedented events that will grab the worlds attention.

Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. Since the Lamb/Jesus is initiating God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, then the promise that the Lord made to come back and take believers to the places that He prepared for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3), must take place prior to that first seal being opened. For we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

Lamad knows nothing about Revelation! I know that the Lord did not tell him these things, because what he is teaching is not supported by scripture. I believe that the only way that he will understand by seeing how everything unfolds.

When one pulls verses out of context and gets their theories wrong because of it, the rest of their theory will then be off also as shown here. The first seal was opened so that the church could legally be sent out. Was Satan going to just step aside and allow the Gospel to be expanded to other nations? NOT WITHOUT A FIGHT!

The truth is, opening seals 2, 3, and 4 made it legal for Satan to oppose the church. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts - but LIMITED Him to 1/4 the earth in their theater of operation.

Since the gospel started in Jerusalem, we could guess that the 1/4 of the earth would be centered on Jerusalem. That would cause Europe, Africa and the Middle East to be that 1/4th. Where did two world wars start? In Europe. Where did the plague hit twice and kill around 1/3 of the people each time? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? In Africa.

As we know now, Satan failed to keep the gospel bottled up in Europe and Africa. The church is alive and strong today all over Asian and the Americas.

Next, we come to the cost of the gospel expansion: the martyrs of the church age. Seal 5 is for the martyrs. They cry out wondering how long it will be before God will judge their murders - when judgment will start. Obviously at the 5th seal JUDGEMENT HAS NOT YET STARTED. This alone proves God's wrath starts at the 6th seal, not the first seal.

God answers them and tells them - the martyrs of the church age - that they will have to wait for the FINAL church age martyr - killed as they were - as church age martyrs. THEN judgment will start. So what does John write of next, right after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal start of the Day of His wrath. See how simple this is if we just follow the text in context?

 

[lamad]

5th Seal: Martyr's under the altar in heaven: These will be saints (not the church) who will have been killed in the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They are told to wait awhile until their brothers and fellow servants are killed just as they had been, which is referring to the saints who come out of the great tribulation

At the opening of the 6th seal, it is announced that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" The error that many make here, is that they only consider God's wrath as beginning after the announcement, which is false. It is a general announcement in regards to all of the plagues of wrath that will have previously taken place, as well as the ones yet to come, namely, the 7th Seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. The announcement of God's wrath encompasses all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are not going to be common occurrences. But will be unprecedented events that will grab the worlds attention.

Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. Since the Lamb/Jesus is initiating God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, then the promise that the Lord made to come back and take believers to the places that He prepared for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3), must take place prior to that first seal being opened. For we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

Lamad knows nothing about Revelation! I know that the Lord did not tell him these things, because what he is teaching is not supported by scripture. I believe that the only way that he will understand by seeing how everything unfolds.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good day, Pilgrimshope,

You are spinning your wheels with lamad! For though tries to impress upon people that he knows what he is talking about, he knows nothing and does not support scripture with scripture. All he has done is brought in nonsense teachings such as John's weeping and how many times that he counts the dragon being mentioned and all this by self proclaimed direct communication with God.

There was no literal search to find someone who was worthy to open the scroll, as it was for lack of a better word, rhetorical. For there was no one else in all of history who lived a perfect sinless life as a human being. And there is only one God who became a human being, so that He could represent us and shedding His blood on behalf of all believers.

So there was no actual, literal, search going on throughout heaven and on the earth and under the earth. All that this Lamad is doing is bringing in strange teachings, which are baseless conjecture. It is meant to highlight Christ, as the One who shed His blood.

The seals are opened by the Lamb/Jesus as the first set of plagues of God's wrath, with the trumpets and bowl judgments to follow.

1st Seal/Rider on the white horse: Symbolically represents the antichrist who has not yet been revealed. There are some who have claimed that it represents antichrist's, however, the scripture does not bear that out. It is speaking about an individual who is given a crown, who holds a bow and he comes out to conquer. The 'He' is singular not plural. The rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse revealed in Rev.19:11-21, which is the Lord. Just understanding that this 1st seal is the antichrist destroys lamad's claim. But let's go on ....

2nd Seal/Rider on the red horse: At the opening of this seal peace is taken from the earth so that men will kill one another. And I don't think that this is just speaking about the militaries of different nations fighting one another, but people against people world-wide, as well. Once this peace is removed, it ain't commin' back. Therefore, if this seal had already taken place, the world would still be in that state.

3rd Seal/Rider on the black horse: This 3rd seal will be world-wide famine due to food shortage, so that a days wages will only buy a small amount of food, meaning that a days worth of food will be very expensive. We haven't seen this take place.

4th Seal/Rider on the pale green horse, with Hades following close behind: At the opening of the4th Seal, Death and Hades are given authority to kill a fourth of the earths population and that's not over centuries, but will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. 25% of the earths population killed in a short amount of time. Once again, this hasn't happened.

5th Seal: Martyr's under the altar in heaven: These will be saints (not the church) who will have been killed in the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They are told to wait awhile until their brothers and fellow servants are killed just as they had been, which is referring to the saints who come out of the great tribulation

At the opening of the 6th seal, it is announced that "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it?" The error that many make here, is that they only consider God's wrath as beginning after the announcement, which is false. It is a general announcement in regards to all of the plagues of wrath that will have previously taken place, as well as the ones yet to come, namely, the 7th Seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgment. The announcement of God's wrath encompasses all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, are not going to be common occurrences. But will be unprecedented events that will grab the worlds attention.

Since Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. Since the Lamb/Jesus is initiating God's wrath by the opening of the first seal, then the promise that the Lord made to come back and take believers to the places that He prepared for us in the Father's house (John 14:1-3), must take place prior to that first seal being opened. For we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did.

Lamad knows nothing about Revelation! I know that the Lord did not tell him these things, because what he is teaching is not supported by scripture. I believe that the only way that he will understand by seeing how everything unfolds.

it’s alright brother I don’t mind conversing with people .

there actually was kind of a search by God for a man worthy in the ot he’s constantly searching and trying men

“The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he found none worthy to administer judgement and speak and know truth


“And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Because no one was found to intercede He became what mankind didn’t have a living eternal mediator between man and God whomis able to forgive us because he paid for their life

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when they are searching and John is weeping it’s showing us the ot prophets story about no man being worthy to fulfill the law and usher in salvation. It’s showing us Christ was born a man of David’s line and had lived and died was crucified and risen and appearing in heaven before John

it’s a revelation of what’s already been established in prophecy . That’s just my own thought I don’t know brother who’s right and wrong I can only discuss for my own views and understandings and try to hear what others say consider it and respond whether I agree or not

I don’t think he would be the first person myself included to be off track on some prophetic scripture at some point in my studies discussion sometimes helps if we can avoid the arguing

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I will agree that others in the bible also saw the four living creatures.



I am not really sure what you are saying here. It is the Father on the throne, and when seen, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. I can't think of a verse that says it, but without a doubt Jesus has a throne beside the Father's because some verse say He went to sit at the right hand of the Father. My point has always been that Jesus was NOT SEEN when John saw into the throne room in chapter 4. That is the very point GOD is making as we read it. The Holy Spirit is there but the SON is not there. It is showing a time while the SON is on earth.

John is very clear as to when Jesus took the Book from the Father's hand - it was the first thing He did when He ascended back into the throne room.

QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4543679, member: 300996"]
you quickly ruled out other prophecy earlier regarding the four heavenly spirits

The purpose for those four spirits in Zechariah was a different purpose than the horses in Revelation. I am not sure these in Revelation are real horses and riders: they may be symbolic horses. For example, the early church mostly spread the gospel on foot. The first and second world wars (the Red horse) were not started by a rider on a horse.

I suspect Ezekiel was seeing a vision when He saw the four Beasts and the Father on the throne.

QUOTE="Pilgrimshope, post: 4543679, member: 300996"]
Elijah stopped the rain for three and a half years during his prophecy , Moses turned water to blood and cast plagues on the earth.
[/quote]
We could guess - and many people do - as to who the Two Witnesses will be, but John does not tell us so I don't say. If I had to guess I would say the two men that never died, and Moses was not one of those.[/QUOTE]

yes brother think about what happened there when John is weeping it’s because no one could be found in heaven or earth worthy what that is is showing you or mystery that wasn’t explained but was shown priorly

so the search for a worthy man the Old Testament shows an image of God seeking with his eyes the output earth looking for one man to intercede and save us but finds none .

Priorly he says that thier vision or understanding has become as a book that is sealed and no one can read or understand his word anymore

“For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭29:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

man lost judgement there was no one without sin to administer judgement so Gid became a man we needed a savior so God became one

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Christ appears in the center of the throne he is the revelation of that “ something like the appearance of a man on then the throne in the ot “ in revelation your seeing who that man is

when you read Christ is at the right hand of God brother he’s sitting on Gods throne with him because they are one

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The son is how God is manifest on earth the father is his presence in heaven the Holy Ghost is his presence in you

 

[Ahwatukee]

I will agree that others in the bible also saw the four living creatures.



I am not really sure what you are saying here. It is the Father on the throne, and when seen, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. I can't think of a verse that says it, but without a doubt Jesus has a throne beside the Father's because some verse say He went to sit at the right hand of the Father. My point has always been that Jesus was NOT SEEN when John saw into the throne room in chapter 4. That is the very point GOD is making as we read it. The Holy Spirit is there but the SON is not there. It is showing a time while the SON is on earth.

That is an incorrect assumption or your part. In Rev.4:1, Jesus is the One whose voice sounds like a trumpet which says "“Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” We know that this is true because the voice like a trumpet is first identified in Rev.1:10

Just because the Lamb is not yet mentioned yet in the scene, does not mean that He is not there. Because of this and other erroneous things, you have built an incorrect interpretation of Revelation and end-time events.

All you are dong is butchering the book of Revelation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And you say this because what you wrote did not line up with scripture and I saw through it. Are you saying now that John did not weep? Better take another look. Did you not read?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I am a sheep and I hear His voice. It is scripture. The fact that you don't believe what Jesus said to me shows that your beliefs are off from the plumb line of scripture. You can scoff and John weeping much, but it is a fact of scripture.[/quote]

You didn't see through anything! Everything that I teach is according to scripture. And what does the the "sheep hear My voice" have to do with Revelation?

By the way, I was told by the Master to count how many times the Dragon was mentioned. I obeyed. His point was to show me that in general, chapter 12 was God introducing John to the Dragon. I hope you at least got that part right.

You weren't told these things by God, because they do not match His word. The counting of how many times the dragon is mentioned as no bearing on anything. Neither does John's weeping have some secret meaning. I wish that you people would leave Revelation alone!

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

I will go with what is written. You can symbolize this or spiritualize it if you choose: I won't. I believe John that this happened just as written.

I can assure that no one was searching through heaven, on the earth or under the earth to find someone. Everyone in heaven would have known that no man would be worthy to open the book, because no one else had righteous blood to shed. There's only one who was slain, shedding His righteous blood for the sins of mankind, which is the reason that He is able to open the scroll, as revealed in Rev. 5:9.

I will stick close to what is written. If others go off on tangents, it is on them. I teach scripture as shown above. It is an absolute fact that John wept. You can ask Him when you see him.

Well, when are you going to start doing that? Because up until now, you have done nothing of the kind.

Now, I have nothing against you personally, but I am offended by this junk that you are proclaiming.

Sure John wept and that's all that it means. There is no secret meaning behind it. But you have made one, just as you did by counting how many times the dragon is mentioned.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That is an incorrect assumption or your part. In Rev.4:1, Jesus is the One whose voice sounds like a trumpet which says "“Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” We know that this is true because the voice like a trumpet is first identified in Rev.1:10

Just because the Lamb is not yet mentioned yet in the scene, does not mean that He is not there. Because of this and other erroneous things, you have built an incorrect interpretation of Revelation and end-time events.

All you are dong is butchering the book of Revelation.

yes the lambs appearance is showing christs birth life as a man and death and resurrection being introduced sort of the answer to the issue John is weeping about

if we nite that “ the son “ is rarely mentioned in revelation but the concept of a lamb who was slain has now become the presence of christs identification

in the gospel it’s always the son , the son , the son but in revelation it’s about the new concept of the Lamb slain appearing at the center of the throne among the four creatures

what he’s missing is all of the other prophecy that explains it . He quickly rejects the rest of the vision through Ezekiel , zechariah , even Daniel being in any way connected

but I think he’s missing the point that revelation says forminstance lf e two witnesses it gives the direct discription and reference to them that zechariah saw zechariah is the one who saw two olive trees and two candlesticks on either side of the candlestick

John says directively “ these are the two olive trees and candlesticks standing by the god of the earth “ which is not surprisingly by now to you I’m sure , the answer that zechariah got when he asked what the two candlesticks and olive trees were

the only teo
Men ever shown to be standing by the glorofoed Christ on earth is at his transfiguration being Moses and Elijah . I think he is stuck on revelation being it’s own totally seperate thing from all
Other prophecy pertaining to the end times like you already know Daniel and them

I don’t think if we reject the perpetual nature of Gods plan of salvation and prophecies whole purpose and that all of it speaks of the same things the New Testament That came with christs life death and resurrection and then ascension back into heaven having been the son of man now glorified in the father as in the beginning

“And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but now there is the gospel to bring us into his kingdom through the lamb who was slain Gods life on earth given for us after he corrected our misunderstanding of him and revealed his name in his body





“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Ahwatukee]

When one pulls verses out of context and gets their theories wrong because of it, the rest of their theory will then be off also as shown here. The first seal was opened so that the church could legally be sent out. Was Satan going to just step aside and allow the Gospel to be expanded to other nations? NOT WITHOUT A FIGHT!

How did I pull anything out of context. The seals are in chronological order. They have not yet taken place. Nothing I have said has been theory. The seals are the beginning of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer, which is what you are not understanding. And that because you don't understand that the announcement of wrath includes the previous seals and the fact that the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening them.

The first seal was opened so that the church could legally be sent out.

This is completely false and has nothing to do with the church. These are seals of wrath! The rider on the white horse is symbolically representing the antichrist, not the church. This is all assumption on your part.

The truth is, opening seals 2, 3, and 4 made it legal for Satan to oppose the church. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts - but LIMITED Him to 1/4 the earth in their theater of operation.

These events have not yet take place, but will once the church has been gathered from the earth. As I said previously, there has been no time where complete peace has been taken from the earth so that a fourth of the population is killed. It has nothing to do with "their theater of operation." Just as the scripture says, death and hades will be given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth. It doesn't say maybe kill a fourth of the earth, but a fourth (25%) is how many are going to die and that in a short period of time.

Since the gospel started in Jerusalem, we could guess that the 1/4 of the earth would be centered on Jerusalem. That would cause Europe, Africa and the Middle East to be that 1/4th. Where did two world wars start? In Europe. Where did the plague hit twice and kill around 1/3 of the people each time? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? In Africa.

More assumptions! Aren't you the one who keeps talking about sticking to what is written? Yet, you assumed everything above.

I say again, the seals are future events of wrath. They take place after the church period and during the "what must take place later" portion of what John was told to write. Currently, we are still in "what is now" portion" which is the church period and which will end once the Lord comes for His church. Everything from Rev.4:1 onward belongs to the "what will take place later" portion of what John was told to write.

 

[Ahwatukee]

it’s alright brother I don’t mind conversing with people .

there actually was kind of a search by God for a man worthy in the ot he’s constantly searching and trying men

“The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he found none worthy to administer judgement and speak and know truth


“And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Because no one was found to intercede He became what mankind didn’t have a living eternal mediator between man and God whomis able to forgive us because he paid for their life

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when they are searching and John is weeping it’s showing us the ot prophets story about no man being worthy to fulfill the law and usher in salvation. It’s showing us Christ was born a man of David’s line and had lived and died was crucified and risen and appearing in heaven before John

it’s a revelation of what’s already been established in prophecy . That’s just my own thought I don’t know brother who’s right and wrong I can only discuss for my own views and understandings and try to hear what others say consider it and respond whether I agree or not

I don’t think he would be the first person myself included to be off track on some prophetic scripture at some point in my studies discussion sometimes helps if we can avoid the arguing

Searching for someone who is worthy to open the scroll would be futile before you stared. Because first of all, no man lived a life without sin and therefore would not be able to shed his blood to pay the penalty for sins. But lamad made the search into literal one, as thought everyone was looking high and low to find someone. The search is rhetorical and meant to highlight the Lamb.

When the Lord first called me, which was at 14 years old, He immediately drew me to the book of Revelation and end-time events, which I have continued to study since that time. Therefore, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of this book and end-time events. So when I see people come in here with their fantasies, I contend for the truth. All Lamad has done so far, is butcher the book of Revelation. I have nothing against him personally, but only what he is teaching.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Searching for someone who is worthy to open the scroll would be futile before you stared. Because first of all, no man lived a life without sin and therefore would not be able to shed his blood to pay the penalty for sins. But lamad made the search into literal one, as thought everyone was looking high and low to find someone. The search is rhetorical and meant to highlight the Lamb.

When the Lord first called me, which was at 14 years old, He immediately drew me to the book of Revelation and end-time events, which I have continued to study since that time. Therefore, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of this book and end-time events. So when I see people come in here with their fantasies, I contend for the truth. All Lamad has done so far, is butcher the book of Revelation. I have nothing against him personally, but only what he is teaching.

scripture says he was searching for someone on earth and found no
One though is the thing why wouldn’t I just accept that he was searching for a man on earth worthy and found none ,?


“The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-4‬ ‭

That he was seeking for an intercessor and because he found none he became one himself for our salvstion ?
“And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. ( “the time has come repent ye and believe the gospel “)

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:16-17, 19-


You know what I mean ? Why wouldn’t I just believe that since it’s relatively simply stated and then understand that’s all testifying of the gospel of Jesus Christ ? As revelation is offering us further understanding of also ?

johns weeping because no one is found
But he’s told not to weep because now the lamb appears and has overcome so johns weeping isn’t necassary because Christ was born lived and died and now was seated on the throne having authored salvation for Mankind both of the tribes of Israel and all nations through the gospel.

I believe God looks into the earth and searches mankind constantly ot actually says that as well which explains why the creatures with all those eyes that see everything yet are close around the throne are sent into the earth to observe everything in the north south east and west in zechariah

God observes us from heaven he searches for and always has since the fall Intercessors and as time went on none were left and no more were going to be born so God gave the promise of Christ and the gospel his plan from the start it had to be fulfilled which is what the unfolding story in scripture is