When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

I have a question now. If believers(Church) are going to go through the tribulation and the horror of all that wrath, why were the Thessalonian believers worried that their loved ones that had already died, would miss it? Death for their loved ones should have been a relief to them........they would have been spared the suffering,pain and misery, the likes of which the world has never seen.

The Wrath of Satan = the Great Tribulation. The Wrath of God comes after and is in direct response to it. Thus you are discussing the horrors of the wrath of Satan. God's people have been putting up with Satan's wrath since the Garden so nothing new except the level of wrath and deception. Satan will be on top of his game and very determined. He already lost the war, he now wants to drag down as many with him as he can.

Upon receiving Paul's first letter, the Thessalonians thought maybe Christ had already returned a second time and they missed it. Word of their concern got back to Paul. This was the main reason he wrote them a second letter so quickly, within a year or less.

Paul starts out in his second letter praising the Church of Thessalonica for endure the hardships and tribulation they were already facing:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]...so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure...

Paul then spends the rest of Chapter 1 telling them that God will repay with wrath those who are persecuting them. Further, he tells them when this repayment (God's wrath) will take place:

...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Thus the wrath of God starts when Jesus is revealed from heaven, before He returns. This timing is confirmed in Mat 24 and Rev 6. Paul then warns us at the start of 2 Thes 2 to not be deceived by any means that the Day Christ returns will not happen until the Man of Sin comes to deceive. It's pretty clear. If Paul had taught in an earlier rapture, and his Thessalonian brothers and sisters were to take part in it, there would be no need to warn them of the Man of Sin, right?

 

[VCO]

VCO, what scripture do you use to say that all believers will not be caught up?

NONE, but we do not use the same definition of what is a Believer if you think that is what I am saying.

Matthew 7:21-24 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

He said He NEVER KNEW THEM, no matter how many times they CLAIM to be Christians. MANY in the world want a Savior, BUT VERY FEW WANT A LORD, who takes control and rules over their lives as MASTER. Submitting to HIS Lordship is not optional, it is the NARROW GATE. NO, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS. That reference to KNOWING HIM, is the inner personal LOVE relationship with HIM, that only comes AFTER THE HOLY SPIRIT POURS THE LOVE OF GOD INTO OUR HEARTS, Rom. 5:5. NO amount of FAKING IT, will impress HIM. IF that LOVE OF GOD is there, it is THAT LOVE that manifest itself by PRODUCING LOVE for Jesus Christ, and a sincere willing desire to show that LOVE for HIM by obeying HIM. Those who do not have that kind of LOVE OF GOD poured in their Hearts by the Holy Spirit, are NOT YET genuine Christians; most likely because they want to remain, lord of their own lives instead of submitting to HIM.

Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

What then is the test that the LOVE OF GOD has been poured into our hearts?

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 John 2:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

And what happens to all who lie about KNOWING HIM?

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

That is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, while what is being peddled in the world today by liberal Churches, and a lot of those who are on TV, is a watered down, easy believism FALSE GOSPEL. They run so scared of being accused of teaching a works righteousness false gospel, that they swing the pendulum completely to the opposite side, manifesting NO LOVE FOR GOD (1 John 5:2-3), and scream, "Let Grace Abound!"

NO, that genuine Born Again experience WILL produce a genuine LOVE for Christ in you that will lovingly WANT TO OBEY HIM. In other words we ARE SAVED the moment that kind of faith is put in us. Are we perfect at Walking the Walk after we are SAVED? NO, however we are those who are PRACTICING Righteousness, and if we keep practicing, it not only will validate that we were genuinely SAVED PAST TENSE, but also as we Mature spiritually, we will get better at it.

NOTICE in Mat. 7:23 they claimed to be Christians but were practicing lawlessness. We on the other hand are those PRACTICING Righteousness, and JESUS is our Coach.

Psalm 106:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] How blessed are those who keep justice, Who practice righteousness at all times!

1 John 3:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[PlainWord]

Every mention of the catching away of the saints supports the understanding that no one will see it.

It does? every mention?? Then you should have no problems showing me one passage that says clearly in easy-to-read language that the catching away of saints is invisible. Please show me. Inquiring minds want to know..

Matthew 24 is a summation of the beginning church age through the Second Coming of Christ. Verse 29 speaks about the latter part of the tribulation period just before the appearing of our Lord. Verse 30 picks up with Christ visibly coming with the Saints of God who have already been raptured prior to the beginning of the tribulation period.

I'm with you except for the "already raptured" part. Just where exactly prior to verse 29-31 do you see the rapture? Chronologically speaking, shouldn't the rapture be discussed before verse 29, actually before verse 15 when the Abomination of Desolation is discussed and certainly before verse 21 when the Great Trib begins. So, please help me find the passage somewhere before verse 21 where Jesus teaches us of His Rapture return. That would be a real blessing for me to see this.

Revelation 19:14 describes this great event:

Rev 19:14 discusses the Rapture or Second Coming? Second Coming, right? Still looking for that secret, invisible Rapture return.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
This is a consistent Biblical description of the Saints (Zechariah 14:5; I Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14; Jude 1:14; Revelation 4:4).

Not disputing the Second Coming and that Saints will be present. You are aware that there are 2,000 years of dead NT saints in heaven right now, correct? Could these saints be the ones discussed? I mean there are souls in heaven right now right? Today there are no raptured saints in heaven, right? Can you show me a verse that identifies anyone in heaven being there by way of Rapture, except for Enoch and Elijah of course.

We are told just one chapter later this:

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I see souls. I don't see the undead living in heaven mentioned with Christ's return. Souls are coming back, dear sister, no living people until they are resurrected at 1 Thes 4.

It’s also generally believed by most Bible scholars that the rapture will happen as a thief in the night (I Thessalonians 5:1-4) or someone who comes unannounced and steals something away during the night.

That's interesting. The Second Coming, AKA Day of the Lord, is clearly discussed as like a "Thief in the Night." Only those not aware of the season will it seem like a thief. Paul makes clear to the Thessalonians who by the way are still on earth for the Day of the Lord that they won't be surprised.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Revelation 16:15
“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

If we are to watch, we have to be here, not in heaven.

Certainly, the rapture will take the world by surprise, but after it occurs, will cause great panic the next day. But no where does it allude to anyone visibly seeing Jesus, this thief in the night, in the clouds. Matthew 24:30 couldn't possibly be talking about the rapture because the "tribes of the earth [will] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven". This is not consistent with any of the scriptural descriptions of the rapture.

There is no separate earlier rapture return. Satan has planted this illusion within the church to deceive it so that he can deceive those who he got to swallow this poison pill. All the thief returns are clearly associated with the second coming and not an earlier pre-trib rapture. Peter makes clear that the heavens and earth dissolve when the Lord returns as a thief. Now how can that be if there is still to be a GT and Second Coming? The Rev 16:15 passage takes place during the Bowls of Wrath being poured out. Hint: These bowls are not poured out before the Great Tribulation, they are poured out after.

I'm sorry my dear sister in Christ. Satan is very persuasive and like you, I grew up being fed this garbage. Satan's rapture lie is so cleverly devised. He has it written between the lines, woven into scripture using bits and pieces from various passages, omitting things, and getting people to see an event so huge and spectacular out of thin air. There is no Pre-Trib teaching, there is no passage where two returns of the Lord are taught and there is no concept of a Tribulation Saint taught. All of this is fantasy, invented to fit the rapture lie.

 

[Gr8grace]

The Wrath of Satan = the Great Tribulation. The Wrath of God comes after and is in direct response to it. Thus you are discussing the horrors of the wrath of Satan. God's people have been putting up with Satan's wrath since the Garden so nothing new except the level of wrath and deception. Satan will be on top of his game and very determined. He already lost the war, he now wants to drag down as many with him as he can.

Upon receiving Paul's first letter, the Thessalonians thought maybe Christ had already returned a second time and they missed it. Word of their concern got back to Paul. This was the main reason he wrote them a second letter so quickly, within a year or less.

Paul starts out in his second letter praising the Church of Thessalonica for endure the hardships and tribulation they were already facing:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]...so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure...

Paul then spends the rest of Chapter 1 telling them that God will repay with wrath those who are persecuting them. Further, he tells them when this repayment (God's wrath) will take place:

...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Thus the wrath of God starts when Jesus is revealed from heaven, before He returns. This timing is confirmed in Mat 24 and Rev 6. Paul then warns us at the start of 2 Thes 2 to not be deceived by any means that the Day Christ returns will not happen until the Man of Sin comes to deceive. It's pretty clear. If Paul had taught in an earlier rapture, and his Thessalonian brothers and sisters were to take part in it, there would be no need to warn them of the Man of Sin, right?

Why would the Thessalonians think that they missed the 2nd coming? They know what the tribulation is. They actually thought that they had went through the wrath of satan and the wrath of God(the worst time in human history,greater than the flood) and they missed the second coming?

 

[Elin]

So upon examination of the clear and certain NT Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation from decay (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture, and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Elin has nailed it. .

And that is all she will defend regarding the church age, the second coming and the end of time,
because the above is the certain teaching of the NT word of God, whereas
everything else is uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles,
which are interpreted to mean very different things within the body of Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

We are told to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. This means we are to expect Satan to attack us from within the church. The best way to do this is with pastors and spiritual leaders and Men of God whom we trust. Now I'm not judging any man of being a wolf, many are simply deceived and taking what they have been taught and repeating it. However, I am saying that we all as Christians should expect Satan's attack on us to come from within our own church(es).

I firmly believe the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is such an attack. Further, I believe it is THE ATTACK. It is the primary vehicle Satan will use to deceive many believers into thinking he (Satan) is Christ. Trust the Word people. Trust the plain reading of the Word. God makes it easy for us to understand. We don't need, and shouldn't try, to invent things not plainly taught.

I am not a pastor. I have never been a pastor. Trust upon the Lord and the Word of God. If you cannot find a single passage which teaches that Christ comes before the Tribulation - don't believe it. If you cannot find a single passage that teaches in two separate returns of the Lord- don't believe it. If you can't find any passage where Tribulation Saints are distinguished from regular saints - don't believe there is one.

 

[PlainWord]

Why would the Thessalonians think that they missed the 2nd coming? They know what the tribulation is. They actually thought that they had went through the wrath of satan and the wrath of God(the worst time in human history,greater than the flood) and they missed the second coming?

The early church had its struggles with lot of false doctrines - not unlike today.. Many were hung up on works based salvation and thought they missed the cut - not unlike many on here. Salvation is not by works. But many think and have expressed their view that the rapture is by works or by faith in it.

Greater than the Flood? I don't think so. Tough to top killing every living creature above the sea except 8 people and 2 creatures from each kind except for the ones where extras were brought.

Now answer me this please. Why would Paul be telling them and warning them of the deceptions of the Man of Sin if he also taught them they would all be flown away prior to the appearance of the Man of Sin?

 

[PlainWord]

If you have received Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord, you will be caught up with us, whether you believe it or not. There is only peril in remaining behind with fellow unbelievers.

Thank you. I will be caught up if and only if:

A) I survive Satan's Great Tribulation
B) I am still alive at or immediately after (put more accurately) the resurrection
C) I make it to the Return of God

Basically, I have to make it to the last day of planet earth as we know it to be part of the Rapture. It is literally the last thing that happens, that being the defeat of death. Remember, death is the last enemy Christ defeats, it isn't the first enemy He defeats. He has a lot of enemies to defeat before He defeats death.

 

[Elin]

Why would the Thessalonians think that they missed the 2nd coming? They know what the tribulation is. They actually thought that they had went through the wrath of satan and the wrath of God(the worst time in human history,greater than the flood) and they missed the second coming?

The theory is they thought they had missed the rapture and second coming,
supported neither by common sense, nor the text of 2Th.

Common sense: they could think that only if they thought Paul had missed it too. . .

For it was Silas and Timothy who observed the Thessalonian problem when they delivered Paul's first letter (1 Th), which problem they relayed to Paul on their return, and which occasioned Paul's second letter.

Now if their problem were that they thought the rapture had already occurred, then that meant Silas and Timothy standing there before them had missed it also, and by extension, also Paul.
No way the Thessalonians thought the apostle Paul had missed the rapture.

No, the Thessalonians did not think they had missed the rapture, and that is not the problem Silas and Timothy reported back to Paul after delivering Paul's first letter to them.

The text: the Thessalonians thought the rapture was imminent (2Th 2:3), which is why Paul clearly explains what must happen first (2:3-8) before there can even be a rapture (2:1), and then exhorts them to get back to work instead of idly waiting for an imminent rapture (3:10-12).

Paul did not write 2Th to correct the view that the rapture (and second coming) had already occurred,
but to correct the view that it was imminent.

 

[popeye]

I am pre trib. But where do get the scripture for a believer not being caught up? The only prerequisite I see is to be born again.

I see losing a crown(reward.). Even if one believer was left, It couldn't be called THE apostasy.

mat 25
Clearly half of those virgins (christians), were left behind,and salvation was not the issue of those being left.

 

[PlainWord]

The theory is they thought they had missed the rapture and second coming,
supported neither by common sense, nor the text of 2Th.

Common sense: they could think that only if they thought Paul had missed it too. . .

For it was Silas and Timothy who observed the Thessalonian problem when they delivered Paul's first letter (1 Th), which problem they relayed to Paul on their return, and which occasioned Paul's second letter.

Now if their problem were that they thought the rapture had already occurred, then that meant Silas and Timothy standing there before them had missed it also, and by extension, also Paul.
No way the Thessalonians thought the apostle Paul had missed the rapture.

No, the Thessalonians did not think they had missed the rapture, and that is not the problem Silas and Timothy reported back to Paul after delivering Paul's first letter to them.

The text: the Thessalonians thought the rapture was imminent (2Th 2:3), which is why Paul clearly explains what must happen first (2:3-8) before there can even be a rapture (2:1), and then exhorts them to get back to work instead of idly waiting for an imminent rapture (3:10-12).

Paul did not write 2Th to correct the view that the rapture (and second coming) had already occurred,
but to correct the view that it was imminent.

I was going from memory from my past studies. I was off slightly. They did not think Christ had come but rather that the Day of the Lord (AKA Second Coming) was imminent as in could happen at any moment. Note they were not looking forward to a pre-Trib Rapture. As far as they were concerned, they were in the Tribulation already.

Below is from my study Bible. Not much has changed as many in the church are twisting Paul's teachings again.

 

[VCO]

I was going from memory from my past studies. I was off slightly. They did not think Christ had come but rather that the Day of the Lord (AKA Second Coming) was imminent as in could happen at any moment. Note they were not looking forward to a pre-Trib Rapture. As far as they were concerned, they were in the Tribulation already.

Below is from my study Bible. Not much has changed as many in the church are twisting Paul's teachings again.

View attachment 120048

Especially you.

 

[VCO]

. . .

Rev 19:14 discusses the Rapture or Second Coming? Second Coming, right? Still looking for that secret, invisible Rapture return.
. . .
There is no separate earlier rapture return. Satan has planted this illusion within the church to deceive it so that he can deceive those who he got to swallow this poison pill. All the thief returns are clearly associated with the second coming and not an earlier pre-trib rapture. Peter makes clear that the heavens and earth dissolve when the Lord returns as a thief. Now how can that be if there is still to be a GT and Second Coming? The Rev 16:15 passage takes place during the Bowls of Wrath being poured out. Hint: These bowls are not poured out before the Great Tribulation, they are poured out after.

I'm sorry my dear sister in Christ. Satan is very persuasive and like you, I grew up being fed this garbage. Satan's rapture lie is so cleverly devised. He has it written between the lines, woven into scripture using bits and pieces from various passages, omitting things, and getting people to see an event so huge and spectacular out of thin air. There is no Pre-Trib teaching, there is no passage where two returns of the Lord are taught and there is no concept of a Tribulation Saint taught. All of this is fantasy, invented to fit the rapture lie.

I told you NUMEROUS TIMES there has NEVER BEEN a secret Rapture taught by us, that is YOUR FALSE TEACHING ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Matthew 25:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

Matthew 25:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.Matthew 25:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

WATCH for WHAT? The Bridegroom appearing outside of the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride, to take HIS BRIDE to His Father's HOUSE where the place HE prepared for us is. You Watch for ONLY a return of a Conquering KING, and NOT a Bridegroom. It does not sound to me like you are even invited to the Wedding.

Our WATCH, keeps our eyes FIXED on JESUS, Keeps us LOVING HIM, Keeps us full of JOY and Peace, Keeps us READY at all times, Keeps us Busy about HIS work, and you attribute that to the work of the DEVIL.

Mark 3:28-30 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"—
[SUP]30 [/SUP] because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."



Why must you lie about what we teach and believe to get your point across?

 

[popeye]

I told you NUMEROUS TIMES there has NEVER BEEN a secret Rapture taught by us, that is YOUR FALSE TEACHING ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Matthew 25:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

Matthew 25:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.Matthew 25:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

WATCH for WHAT? The Bridegroom appearing outside of the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride, to take HIS BRIDE to His Father's HOUSE where the place HE prepared for us is. You Watch for ONLY a return of a Conquering KING, and NOT a Bridegroom. It does not sound to me like you are even invited to the Wedding.

Our WATCH, keeps our eyes FIXED on JESUS, Keeps us LOVING HIM, Keeps us full of JOY and Peace, Keeps us READY at all times, Keeps us Busy about HIS work, and you attribute that to the work of the DEVIL.

Mark 3:28-30 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"—
[SUP]30 [/SUP] because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."



Why must you lie about what we teach and believe to get your point across?

Postrib doctrine has them erroneously looking for the AC instead of watching and waiting for Jesus.
Even the 5 foolish had enough mustard in their walk to watch and wait. Postribs have literally disenfranchised themselves.

 

[TMS]

Lol. Zech 11--14 has yet to happen. Dan 924-27's last week has yet to begin. Hardness has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in; and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this is the covenant from Me with them, when I take away their sins'...For the gracious gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Zechariah portrays God's future plans for Gods covenant people. The first 8 chap are written to encourage the people while building the temple and the last six chaps were written after the temple was complete to anticipate the coming messiah. Zechariah talks of the times of persecution to the time of the coming messiah (Jesus first coming) Zech 9:9. Zech 14:11 Israel have already inhabited Jerusalem safely.

 

[TMS]

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (taken by death, or taken to meet the lord in the air), and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The word Rapture is not in my Bible anywhere??
I have looked high and low for evidence that people will just disappear but i can't find it??
I know Jesus will come but no one know the exact time not even the angels. Mat 24:36
When He come His reward is with Him so judgement has already finished. No second chance after He comes. Rev 22:12.

 

[PlainWord]

Especially you.

LOL. That's so funny.

 

[PlainWord]

I told you NUMEROUS TIMES there has NEVER BEEN a secret Rapture taught by us, that is YOUR FALSE TEACHING ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Matthew 25:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

Matthew 25:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.Matthew 25:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

WATCH for WHAT? The Bridegroom appearing outside of the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride, to take HIS BRIDE to His Father's HOUSE where the place HE prepared for us is. You Watch for ONLY a return of a Conquering KING, and NOT a Bridegroom. It does not sound to me like you are even invited to the Wedding.

Our WATCH, keeps our eyes FIXED on JESUS, Keeps us LOVING HIM, Keeps us full of JOY and Peace, Keeps us READY at all times, Keeps us Busy about HIS work, and you attribute that to the work of the DEVIL.

Mark 3:28-30 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"—
[SUP]30 [/SUP] because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."



Why must you lie about what we teach and believe to get your point across?

Your Sister FancyNancy, seems to believe that the rapture will be done in secret. Below is an excerpt from her post a page back. So, at least one of you think the Rapture is a secret.

Every mention of the catching away of the saints supports the understanding that no one will see it. What the world will see is the return of Jesus Christ to the earth, along with His saints! The world will try to destroy Him in His coming, but He will destroy all who come against Him.

Why must you lie about what we teach and believe to get your point across?

Turns out I am not lying. I am providing a direct quote from a pre-tribber, around the same age as you, above.

WATCH for WHAT? The Bridegroom appearing outside of the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride, to take HIS BRIDE to His Father's HOUSE where the place HE prepared for us is. You Watch for ONLY a return of a Conquering KING, and NOT a Bridegroom. It does not sound to me like you are even invited to the Wedding.

Matthew 7:1

“Judge not, that you be not judged.

1 Corinthians 4:3

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.

1 Corinthians 6:5

I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?

You would deny me salvation because I refuse to accept your timing of the Rapture???? You treat the timing of the Rapture as if it is on par doctrinally with the Cross. You have no passage that locates any type of return of Christ before the tribulation. You have no teaching that explicitly discusses two future returns of Christ. You have no teaching that makes any distinction between a Saint, and a Tribulation Saint, yet you act like you do when all you really have is conjecture and wishful thinking.

Our WATCH, keeps our eyes FIXED on JESUS, Keeps us LOVING HIM, Keeps us full of JOY and Peace, Keeps us READY at all times, Keeps us Busy about HIS work, and you attribute that to the work of the DEVIL.

You are watching, but the problem is you have the order of appearances wrong. You assume, with clear arrogance expressed in this post, that a Christian with a different view on the timing of the rapture cannot be saved and part of the Bride. We are told Satan will attack the church from within. What's your theory on how he does that? Is it by attacking those of us who repeat the clear teaching of the return, i.e., one return after the Tribulation?

Yes, we are to watch. But are we to watch for a pre-trib return of Christ or a post trib return? Even though your Matthew 25 references to "watch" are placed after the Second Coming is discussed in Mat 24:29-31 I know you think the Lord jumps back in time to a pre-trib return which He never discusses. But there is one place where we are instructed to watch where the timing is clearly post trib and it is here:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Thus we are to watch for His Post Trib Armageddon return. Those of us who watch post trib, pre-Armageddon are blessed. Why? Because we have persevered, had patience and waited for the true Christ and kept the faith.

 

[PlainWord]

Postrib doctrine has them erroneously looking for the AC instead of watching and waiting for Jesus.
Even the 5 foolish had enough mustard in their walk to watch and wait. Postribs have literally disenfranchised themselves.

Who had extra oil which was needed for a later than expected appearance of the groom, the 5 wise or 5 foolish??? We have extra oil because we expect the groom to come later than you. The Pre-Trib doctrine does not require a watching at all. You teach an involuntary snatching without warning or prerequisite. Most of you teach that you won't even see it coming. You will be walking along then poof, gone. In the 10 virgin example, they at least had some warning that the groom was coming. But you teach NO WARNING, an instant rapture at some point before the Tribulation.

None of you can say exactly how long before the Tribulation that the rapture takes place, but most of you think the Tribulation starts very soon after, perhaps immediately after. But such thinking has a major problem. We are told that the Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation and not the Pre-Trib Return of Christ.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” ... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So unless you are calling Christ the Abomination of Desolation (which I know you would never do), then Christ cannot appear for a Rapture followed immediately by the appearance of the A/C. Such an idea defies all logic. Such thinking suggests Christ comes (secretly or not) snatches the Church off the planet. Presumably this sends terror into the hearts of the planet and many suddenly come to Christ. The same day or next day, the Man of Sin shows up in the Temple claiming to be the Christ that had just come moments or days earlier?

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

How can Satan claim to be the Christ that had just left without violating the passage above? How could Christ leave the Church He just raptured to come back down without the Saints to reign on earth? The Saints are supposed to be with the Returning Christ, everyone knows this, even unbelievers.

Also, you pre-tribbers with all your books and movies, have imbedded the idea in the minds of the world that Christ comes to rapture followed by a terror-filled reign of the AntiChrist before the Lord comes again in 3.5 or 7 years to defeat the A/C. Pretty much the entire world knows this story by now. It's been in many Hollywood movies especially recently such as "This is the End" with Seth Rogan and "Left Behind" with Nicholas Cage, etc. Don't you think that if Christ does the Rapture pre-trib that the world would by now know that the AntiChrist is next so that when the A/C appears, nobody would believe him to be Christ?

The world just witnesses the disappearance of 2 billion Christians with planes and buses crashing and mayhem everywhere then suddenly a lightening commanding man appears in the temple claiming to be God that more than a few people would be wary? Who is going to follow this guy? Nobody is going to believe the AntiChrist if Christ comes first. The only way for the Man of Sin to pull off the deception is to get people to think Christ comes first so that when he comes, many will think he is Christ. That is the only way for the deception of the A/C to work and he's been planning it for nearly 200 years and now has main stream Hollywood helping him. That alone should be a big clue.

 

[Elin]

Postrib doctrine has them erroneously looking for the AC instead of watching and waiting for Jesus.
Even the 5 foolish had enough mustard in their walk to watch and wait. Postribs have literally disenfranchised themselves.

It would be more helpful if you dealt with the clear and certain NT teaching locating the rapture with the resurrection and the liberation of the earth from decay at the end of time, instead of giving us your uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles, which have entirely different interpretations within the body of Christ.