When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

UH, a look at the word will prove you wrong;
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Your version; but the wise knew he was coming at midnight so they checked their oil and never slept.

You should really study these things. Oh,wait,you said anything regarding the marriage bored you..

Your argument about relating the 10 virgins to the Bride of Christ to prove a pre-trib timing bores me, not the parable itself. Jesus was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven, just as He did in Mat 13. He provided 9 different parables in an attempt to explain the Kingdom. You focus on one aspect of one of the parables but I never hear you discuss the others. Your focus on one parable and Jewish wedding customs while ignoring the points Christ was making bores me. I have tried to explain the meaning to you before in our discussion about those "left behind" but you did not see or understand, instead you apply the "left behind" lesson incorrectly as you have just about everything else.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Christ used 9 parables in an effort to explain the Kingdom; 5 of the 9 involved 2 or more groups or 2 or more people that the Lord used to compare and contrast showing which enter the Kingdom and which do not. The points of these examples appears lost on many pre-tribber. The 10 virgins was one such example. The emphasis is not on the timing of the Lord's return relative to the Tribulation, rather, it is on the aspects of the Kingdom and the characteristics of those who enter the Kingdom compared to those who don't.

1) Parable of the Sower:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:...But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

2) The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; [SUP]25 [/SUP]but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

3) The Parable of the Mustard Seed:

“The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, [SUP]32 [/SUP]which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree.

4) The Parable of the Leaven:

“The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

5) The Parable of the Hidden Treasure:

[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

6) The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price:

[SUP]45 [/SUP]“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, [SUP]46 [/SUP]who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

7) The Parable of the Dragnet:

[SUP]47 [/SUP]“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind...

8) The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins:

“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

9) The Parable of the Talents:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, ... [SUP]15 [/SUP]And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one.

In none of the 9 parables was the timing of the Lord's return relative to the Great Tribulation discussed yet you make that the emphasis rather than the behavior, hearts and characteristics of those in the parables. It was my bad even engaging with you on your level about the 10 virgins as an argument relative to the timing of the Lord's return when the parable had nothing to do with the timing whatsoever or about Jewish wedding traditions. It had everything to do with the character of the girls as a compare and contrast lesson - e.g., 5 were wise, 5 were foolish.

 

[PlainWord]

So where on Earth did you get the IDEA, that Unbelievers only need one more Sign or Miracle, and THEN they will believe?

You certainly did not get that idea from the BIBLE.

I got that idea from you. You claim there is a HUGE revival immediately after the Pre-Trib rapture thus you relate all the warnings given by Christ and Paul of the deception to come to these new believers instead of to ourselves. Since I believe that there is only one future return of Christ after the Tribulation (which is the clear reading of the Word), I am pointing out to you that your theory is illogical.

To explain how a great multitude of believers could die during the GT, you invent a huge revival of unbelievers and/or "left behind" believers who come to the Lord upon seeing or knowing of the Rapture. Paul teaches a falling away before the Man of Sin, you teach a huge revival. Don't you see the conflict your view creates?

They didn't believe when Christ was Raised from the dead, Why do you think unbelieving Mankind has changed? Once again Unbelieving Mankind will much rather believe a LIE than the the TRUTH. EXAMPLES: "The Russians must have a new secret weapon, they made half of our Citizens disappear." "The UFO MOTHERSHIP, hidden in the clouds beamed them all up." "I don't care what happened to them, I am just *%#@ glad they are finally GONE." Don't Believe me, LOOK how they celebrate and give each other presents, when the two witnesses are killed in the streets of Jerusalem, Rev. 11:7-10.

I agree with you that regardless of the signs of impending judgment, and actual judgment when it starts, much of the world will remain unrepentant and unchanged. I'm not the one who sees a big revival following a pre-trib rapture because I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture thus I don't need to invent the concept of a GM of GT Saints - you do this.

There aren't going to be two fire breathing witnesses killed in the Streets of Jerusalem. There isn't going to be a global micro chip being forced implanted in the world either. A microchip is not a mark. But hey, they make great Hollywood stories.

 

[TMS]

Now I KNOW you heard that statement from some preacher and you thought it was wisdom; but allow me to show you how FOOLISH that argument actually.

The Word Bible is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Computer is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.
The Word Software is not in the Bible, therefore it does not exist.

In other words, WE have continued to give things a NAME that did not have a name, because GOD commanded Adam to Name all the animals, and we think it is a good idea to follow that example. OF COURSE all those things EXIST, andc the absence of the WORD in the BIBLE does NOT confirm it does not Exist. Didn't you know we also only have the Highlights of Christ's Life on Earth?

John 21:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

I didn't hear it from a preacher. Maybe i should have said it like this. The concept of a secret rapture like the movie "Left behind" is what i can't find in my Bible, i read all about a resurrection of the dead and when the living are changed and taken to meet the Jesus in the clouds.
I might be lazy by not reading through all the posts to get all the answers. But if you're confident give me a simple, short biblical explanation for a rapture ("harpazo" taking of the living) that is separate from the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (G726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[GaryA]

I like the CAR. { What exactly is 'CAR'? Faint memory tells me I probably know something about it, although it is not "ringing any bells" for me right now... } Here is the verses, and a commentary on it. You NEED to remember, that in Old Testament Times, Peace Treaties were called Covenants.

Daniel 9:26-27 (HCSB)
After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince {Antichrist} will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed. He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

REMEMBER: Tiberious destoyed the TEMPLE, that is True; BUT HE DID NOT make a firm Covenant (Peace Treaty) with Israel and her Enemies. The verse numbers were NOT in the original Manuscripts, so I removed them to show you how after talking about the END, his thoughts did not change, but it is actually talking about the End Times WARS, and then suddenly one comes along who seems to provide all the answers, bringing about that Seven Year Peace Treaty. How do we know that Parallels the exact number of days that Antichrist will rule?

I know, I differ slightly from MacArthur's understanding, in that I consider the first 3 and 1/2 years as part of the Great Tribulation too, because it is a Totally EVIL, SCHEMING PLOT that is ONLY labeled a Covenant (Peace Treaty). So those two verses (26-27) are talking the Roman Empire both THEN, and in the Time of the END, the Revived Roman Empire (European Union, most likely).

"The 'HCSB' does not translate that passage very well..."


Let's try that with a good translation:


Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


"will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood" -- X Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!

shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood

The words 'the end thereof' refer to the destruction described in the previous phrase. This is talking about 70 A.D. and its aftermath. It is not referring to 'The End' ( "of time" ).


"and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed." -- X Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!

and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This is an extrapolation of 'flood', and is talking about the war that ensued in / after 70 A.D. It is not referring to 'The End' ( "of time" ).


"He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering." -- X Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

There is a really big difference between 'make a firm covenant' and 'confirm the covenant'. The phrase 'make a firm' and the word 'confirm' have different meanings.

These words have no direct connection whatsoever with the words of the previous sentence after the colon ( starting with 'and the people' ) - which is an 'aside' from the words before the colon ( ending with 'but not for himself' ) - which resumes in the next sentence ( starting with the words 'And he shall confirm' ).

What do you think 'the' covenant meant to Daniel?


"And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." -- XXX Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!!!

( This is a horrid malfunction of an interpretation... )

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is not referring to the Abomination of Desolation specifically. Please see this post. The word 'it' is talking about the temple. The phrase 'even until the consummation' is saying, in effect, that it ( the temple ) will remain desolate until "the end of all things" ( 'The End' ). The last phrase is referring to the 70 A.D. [ post-temple-destruction ] aftermath.


~ Grammatically speaking - the only connection the word 'prince' has to any of the words in this entire passage is the word 'people'.

The 'prince' is not referring to the 'AntiChrist'; it is referring to Tiberious / Titus.

~ The word 'he' ( all three of them ) refer back to the word 'Messiah'.

~ The "latest" point in time / history that any part of this entire passage actually refers to - excepting the phrase 'even until the consummation' - is the 70 A.D. aftermath. The phrase 'even until the consummation' is the only part of this entire passage that refers to 'The End' ( "of time" ). The rest of it is history, dating back to the 70 A.D. aftermath and before.

 

[flob]

The Reason I personally consider the moment He signs the Covenant (Peace Treaty) with Israel as the Beginning of the Great Tribulation, is it was ALL a DECEPTIVE PLAN to destroy ISRAEL, from the minute it was drafted. THE MOST DECEPTIVE, EVIL PLAN EVER. In radical Islamic Teachings, the one who Deceives an Enemy into lowering his guard, so that Islamic Warrior can DESTROY that deceived Enemy, is the greatest of Heroes for Allah. THIS description of what the Antichrist will do, MIRRORS THAT TACTIC PERFECTLY. He pretends to be a friend of Israel for alternative motives, and that motive is to make his greatest attempt at destroying Israel.

Yes, I get that, I get your reason.
But for myself I find that the first half of the covenant in Dan 9:27, regardless of the motives of Antichrist (the 7th king of Rev 17:10) in making it, is kept, is honored...............is peace. And therefore is not tribulation, by definition. Is not anguish, is not persecution.



In regard to Islam: as completely Satanic as it is (which it is), it does not 'rise to the level of' the Antichrist, Satan's consummate work and plan. Of course Satan too is a fool, to ever have thought of rebelling against God. But Islam is not The 'man of sin,' The Antichrist, nor his false prophet, nor any part of the Satanic trinity. Islam, compared to the Antichrist and his deception, is unattractive, foolish, and scattered. Islam is laughably not '666.'



On the positive, affirmative, side, God's goal in judgment and in Revelation is the same as it's always been. The same as in the rest of the books in the Bible. It should be even clearer since Revelation is the consummation. The consummation of God's building (Mt 16:18). And it is. The New Jerusalem. The testimony of Jesus. The churches. The Bride of Christ. Hallelujah. The Wife of the Lamb. As the Lord suggests, what kicks off the Tribulation is the fact that the Lord finally gets His bride in a remnant form, and takes Her to be with Him in heaven. Rev 3:10; 7:9; 12:1-5, 7-9; 14:1-5; Luke 21:36; 17:33-36; Rev 17:14; 19:14; Jude 14.

 

[popeye]

Your argument about relating the 10 virgins to the Bride of Christ to prove a pre-trib timing bores me, not the parable itself. Jesus was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven, just as He did in Mat 13. He provided 9 different parables in an attempt to explain the Kingdom. You focus on one aspect of one of the parables but I never hear you discuss the others. Your focus on one parable and Jewish wedding customs while ignoring the points Christ was making bores me. I have tried to explain the meaning to you before in our discussion about those "left behind" but you did not see or understand, instead you apply the "left behind" lesson incorrectly as you have just about everything else.


In none of the 9 parables was the timing of the Lord's return relative to the Great Tribulation discussed yet you make that the emphasis rather than the behavior, hearts and characteristics of those in the parables. It was my bad even engaging with you on your level about the 10 virgins as an argument relative to the timing of the Lord's return when the parable had nothing to do with the timing whatsoever or about Jewish wedding traditions. It had everything to do with the character of the girls as a compare and contrast lesson - e.g., 5 were wise, 5 were foolish.

You focus on one aspect of one of the parables but I never hear you discuss the others.

Uh,no,I used the word of God to illustrate the wedding dimension YOU remain,by lack of study,ignorant of.

In none of the 9 parables was the timing of the Lord's return relative to the Great Tribulation discussed yet you make that the emphasis rather than the behavior, hearts and characteristics of those in the parables.

In the left behind parable as you call it,there is a TOTAL ABBSENCE of what YOU need to make the setting postrib.(Jesus even put the buying and selling of believers in there just for postrib frustration)
You have yet another non point.

It was my bad even engaging with you on your level about the 10 virgins as an argument relative to the timing of the Lord's return when the parable had nothing to do with the timing whatsoever or about Jewish wedding traditions.

I don't know about "my bad" but you are clearly unable to answer my verses w/o painting yourself in a corner,so your frustration is noted ('I got on your level' comment). Pure desperation as always when postribs go personal.

.....the parable had nothing to do with the timing whatsoever or about Jewish wedding traditions.

That's like saying "the passover feast had nothing to do with illustrating the lamb of God and Jesus as the sacrificial lamb"

It had everything to do with the character of the girls as a compare and contrast lesson - e.g., 5 were wise, 5 were foolish.

Does not surprise me you are championing what we need to leave out ,ie, 90% of the parable.
Why on earth do you take such an impeded position?

Jettison the emotion and answer the verses challenging your position.
I know we get a little rough,but ,to me it is not out of hand or anything.

 

[popeye]

I didn't hear it from a preacher. Maybe i should have said it like this. The concept of a secret rapture like the movie "Left behind" is what i can't find in my Bible, i read all about a resurrection of the dead and when the living are changed and taken to meet the Jesus in the clouds.
I might be lazy by not reading through all the posts to get all the answers. But if you're confident give me a simple, short biblical explanation for a rapture ("harpazo" taking of the living) that is separate from the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (G726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Postribs leave out the pretrib verses,and proceed w/o them,then say "see it is postrib"
Go figure.

Here is one of many,many verses that postribs are ,for whatever bizarre reason not allowed to embrace.
acts 1;9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Like manner. Like manner. As an intimate friend/family in a calm peaceful setting.
Not even a hint of massive armies,death,stinging scorpions and dead believers everywhere refusing the mark etc,etc.

 

[GaryA]

...the first half of the covenant in Dan 9:27...

There is no "first half" of the covenant. Nor is there a "second half", either. The verse states:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

This not referring to [ the making of ] a "one week" convenant - it is saying that the "confirmation" of the [ already existant ] covenant was for one week. And, it was "confirmed" for the entire week.

There is no "breaking of the covenant" represented in Daniel 9:27.

 

[flob]

There is no "first half" of the covenant. Nor is there a "second half", either. The verse states:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Lol. That's a poorer translation.
Dan 9:27 reads:
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one seven; and in the middle of the seven he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and will replace the sacrifice and the oblation with the abomination of the desolator..."
Just as Jesus Himself warned in Matthew 24:15:
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."

This not referring to [ the making of ] a "one week" convenant - it is saying that the "confirmation" of the [ already existant ] covenant was for one week. And, it was "confirmed" for the entire week.

No offense, but that is ridiculous. Did you hypothesize that the covenant here is the Old Covenant?
Why would a covenant in force need to be "confirmed"? What is "confirmed" in your view
anyway? "Confirmation" like in Catholicism or Lutheranism?

There is no "breaking of the covenant" represented in Daniel 9:27.

To the contrary: Daniel 9:27 is quoted above. Antichrist, the 7th and then 8th kings of Revelation 17:10-11,
violates the covenant, interrupts it, in "the middle," when he declares that he is God, and places a speaking
idol of himself in the temple (yet to be rebuilt) in Jerusalem.

Israel's history is not finished. Fittingly, Revelation, based on Daniel and other OT prophecy of the end times, records God's wrap-up of all His dealing with different peoples for the sake of His eternal purpose and goal in Christ Jesus.
His dealings with Israel (cf Rom 11) which is not finished. His building of His Body for the sake of His physical kingdom on earth for 1000 years and then for eternity. His dealing with Satan and the demons and the Antichrist and his kingdom. His dealing with the nations who either fear Him or fear the Antichrist... No one is left out.

 

[GaryA]

Postribs leave out the pretrib verses,and proceed w/o them,then say "see it is postrib"
Go figure.

Here is one of many,many verses that postribs are ,for whatever bizarre reason not allowed to embrace.
acts 1;9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Like manner. Like manner. As an intimate friend/family in a calm peaceful setting.
Not even a hint of massive armies,death,stinging scorpions and dead believers everywhere refusing the mark etc,etc.

Acts 1:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. [SUP]10[/SUP] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [SUP]11[/SUP] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The phrase "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" refers back to the phrase "and a cloud received him out of their sight" - indicating that the "reverse" would happen when He returned ( as in, the next time He returned - i.e., the Second Coming of Christ ). The phrase "shall so come in like manner" does not include "peaceful", or any of the other things you mentioned. It only speaks to the fact that He "cometh with clouds" ( Revelation 1:7 ). There is "not even a hint" of those things because it [ rightly ] does not include those things.

I "embrace" it fully.

It is in agreement with the [ overall ] biblical doctrine concerning the Second Coming of Christ -- that there is only one [ more ] return of Christ - and that, when He returns, "he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" ( Revelation 1:7 ).

 

[popeye]

Acts 1:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. [SUP]10[/SUP] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [SUP]11[/SUP] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The phrase "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" refers back to the phrase "and a cloud received him out of their sight" - indicating that the "reverse" would happen when He returned ( as in, the next time He returned - i.e., the Second Coming of Christ ). The phrase "shall so come in like manner" does not include "peaceful", or any of the other things you mentioned. It only speaks to the fact that He "cometh with clouds" ( Revelation 1:7 ). There is "not even a hint" of those things because it [ rightly ] does not include those things.

I "embrace" it fully.

It is in agreement with the [ overall ] biblical doctrine concerning the Second Coming of Christ -- that there is only one [ more ] return of Christ - and that, when He returns, "he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" ( Revelation 1:7 ).

You are indeed streatching very hard to leave out what is obvious.

Compare the 2. You will see.

 

[GaryA]

Lol. That's a poorer translation. { No, it is the better one... }
Dan 9:27 reads:
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one seven; and in the middle of the seven he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease and will replace the sacrifice and the oblation with the abomination of the desolator..." { and this is not... }
Just as Jesus Himself warned in Matthew 24:15:
"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..."

No offense, but that is ridiculous. Did you hypothesize that the covenant here is the Old Covenant?
Why would a covenant in force need to be "confirmed"? What is "confirmed" in your view
anyway? "Confirmation" like in Catholicism or Lutheranism? { No. Jesus confirmed the Old Covenant by virtue of the life He lived and by the "bringing-about" of all of the prophetic things that occured during that time - before, during, and after - His life on earth. ( i.e. - all that the Old Covenant promised concerning His First Coming ... He "brought-about" exactly as it was promised. ) }

To the contrary: Daniel 9:27 is quoted above. { "Erroneous Quote." } Antichrist, the 7th and then 8th kings of Revelation 17:10-11,
violates the covenant, interrupts it, in "the middle," when he declares that he is God, and places a speaking
idol of himself in the temple (yet to be rebuilt) in Jerusalem. { No. The phrase "in the midst of the week" refers to the week - not the covenant. There is a difference... }

Israel's history is not finished. { I have not said that it was... Israel "still has a part to play" in the 1000-year reign of Christ. } Fittingly, Revelation, based on Daniel and other OT prophecy of the end times, records God's wrap-up of all His dealing with different peoples for the sake of His eternal purpose and goal in Christ Jesus.
His dealings with Israel (cf Rom 11) which is not finished. His building of His Body for the sake of His physical kingdom on earth for 1000 years and then for eternity. His dealing with Satan and the demons and the Antichrist and his kingdom. His dealing with the nations who either fear Him or fear the Antichrist... No one is left out.

No offense taken -- I realize that you simply do not yet understand what Daniel 9:24-27 is actually saying...

 

[GaryA]

You are indeed streatching very hard to leave out what is obvious.

Compare the 2. You will see.

I already have. And, I am not stretching anything -- I see it quite clearly.

 

[GaryA]

You are indeed streatching very hard to leave out what is obvious.

Often, the "obvious" that people see is invented in their minds rather than recorded in scripture.

Good Bible Study requires that one be able to separate the two...

 

[popeye]

I already have. And, I am not stretching anything -- I see it quite clearly.

you sure do. Through a postrib prism if you think a conquering king on a horse with a million horse army in the midst of a destroyed earth with dead bodies everywhere and the seas and marine life destroyed,and no buying and selling without a mark,which every single hummanoid has in their forhead,is whaat the disciplles witnessed at Jesus ' ascention.

You guys can not embrace that truth for 1 second.
Just leave all that out,and carry on. Thanks for illustating the glaring obvious omissions

 

[GaryA]

Me thinks you did not see my point,but instead, what you read into it.

What I read was that you quoted a verse of scripture that stated that "they all slumbered and slept" - and then proceeded to tell everyone that they "never slept"...

Do I see a disagreement with scripture here?

"You-betcha!"

 

[GaryA]

you sure do. Through a postrib prism if you think a conquering king on a horse with a million horse army in the midst of a destroyed earth with dead bodies everywhere and the seas and marine life destroyed,and no buying and selling without a mark,which every single hummanoid has in their forhead,is whaat the disciplles witnessed at Jesus ' ascention.

You guys can not embrace that truth for 1 second.
Just leave all that out,and carry on. Thanks for illustating the glaring obvious omissions

You are the one who needs to "leave all that out" --- you are including things in scripture that are "assumed" - which are not actually included in the "sense and tense" of the passage...

It is okay to "reason" things in scripture - that we must all do. It is bad, however, to "reason back into" a passage of scripture something that it does not actually say. And, people "do this all the time" ( and especially with Daniel 9:24-27 ). It is counter-productive to a good and proper understanding of the scriptures. It is the source of the "70th-week-of-Daniel 7-year-tribulation-period" misinterpretation of scripture.

Please read this post and this post.

 

[GaryA]

...a conquering king on a horse with a million horse army in the midst of a destroyed earth with dead bodies everywhere and the seas and marine life destroyed,and no buying and selling without a mark,which every single hummanoid has in their forhead,...

These are separate within their own context in Revelation:

~ The words of a passage, and the 'grammar of the language'.

~ The imagery of the vision being "painted" by the words.

~ The symbolism of what is contained in the imagery.


Good Bible Study of Revelation requires that one be able to separate these within their own contexts...


Also,

~The imagery must be derived from the words.

~ The symbolism must be derived from the imagary.

Any symbolism derived directly from the words will be in error.

You cannot interpret correctly until you understand the imagary --- "you have to see what John saw"...

 

[PlainWord]

"The 'HCSB' does not translate that passage very well..."


Let's try that with a good translation:


Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


"will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood" -- X Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!

shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood

The words 'the end thereof' refer to the destruction described in the previous phrase. This is talking about 70 A.D. and its aftermath. It is not referring to 'The End' ( "of time" ).


"and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed." -- X Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!

and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This is an extrapolation of 'flood', and is talking about the war that ensued in / after 70 A.D. It is not referring to 'The End' ( "of time" ).


"He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering." -- X Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

There is a really big difference between 'make a firm covenant' and 'confirm the covenant'. The phrase 'make a firm' and the word 'confirm' have different meanings.

These words have no direct connection whatsoever with the words of the previous sentence after the colon ( starting with 'and the people' ) - which is an 'aside' from the words before the colon ( ending with 'but not for himself' ) - which resumes in the next sentence ( starting with the words 'And he shall confirm' ).

What do you think 'the' covenant meant to Daniel?


"And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." -- XXX Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong!!!

( This is a horrid malfunction of an interpretation... )

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is not referring to the Abomination of Desolation specifically. Please see this post. The word 'it' is talking about the temple. The phrase 'even until the consummation' is saying, in effect, that it ( the temple ) will remain desolate until "the end of all things" ( 'The End' ). The last phrase is referring to the 70 A.D. [ post-temple-destruction ] aftermath.


~ Grammatically speaking - the only connection the word 'prince' has to any of the words in this entire passage is the word 'people'.

The 'prince' is not referring to the 'AntiChrist'; it is referring to Tiberious / Titus.

~ The word 'he' ( all three of them ) refer back to the word 'Messiah'.

~ The "latest" point in time / history that any part of this entire passage actually refers to - excepting the phrase 'even until the consummation' - is the 70 A.D. aftermath. The phrase 'even until the consummation' is the only part of this entire passage that refers to 'The End' ( "of time" ). The rest of it is history, dating back to the 70 A.D. aftermath and before.

Absolutely!!!! Gary has this 1,000% correct. Daniel 9 is over, completely fulfilled circa AD 70. You will not find Paul or John discussing any 7 year peace treaty between the Man of Sin and Israel in any of their prophetic works. Jesus does not mention it in Mat 24, Mark 13 etc either. Why? Because it's old news.

 

[VCO]

Your argument about relating the 10 virgins to the Bride of Christ to prove a pre-trib timing bores me, not the parable itself. Jesus was teaching about the Kingdom of Heaven, just as He did in Mat 13. He provided 9 different parables in an attempt to explain the Kingdom. You focus on one aspect of one of the parables but I never hear you discuss the others. Your focus on one parable and Jewish wedding customs while ignoring the points Christ was making bores me. I have tried to explain the meaning to you before in our discussion about those "left behind" but you did not see or understand, instead you apply the "left behind" lesson incorrectly as you have just about everything else.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Christ used 9 parables in an effort to explain the Kingdom; 5 of the 9 involved 2 or more groups or 2 or more people that the Lord used to compare and contrast showing which enter the Kingdom and which do not. The points of these examples appears lost on many pre-tribber. The 10 virgins was one such example. The emphasis is not on the timing of the Lord's return relative to the Tribulation, rather, it is on the aspects of the Kingdom and the characteristics of those who enter the Kingdom compared to those who don't.

1) Parable of the Sower:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:...But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

2) The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

“The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; [SUP]25 [/SUP]but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

3) The Parable of the Mustard Seed:

“The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, [SUP]32 [/SUP]which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree.

4) The Parable of the Leaven:

“The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

5) The Parable of the Hidden Treasure:

[SUP]44 [/SUP]“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

6) The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price:

[SUP]45 [/SUP]“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, [SUP]46 [/SUP]who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

7) The Parable of the Dragnet:

[SUP]47 [/SUP]“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind...

8) The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins:

“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

9) The Parable of the Talents:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, ... [SUP]15 [/SUP]And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one.

In none of the 9 parables was the timing of the Lord's return relative to the Great Tribulation discussed yet you make that the emphasis rather than the behavior, hearts and characteristics of those in the parables. It was my bad even engaging with you on your level about the 10 virgins as an argument relative to the timing of the Lord's return when the parable had nothing to do with the timing whatsoever or about Jewish wedding traditions. It had everything to do with the character of the girls as a compare and contrast lesson - e.g., 5 were wise, 5 were foolish.

PlainWord, YOU ARE WRONG. The Parable of the Ten Virgins, HAS EVERYTHING to do with Jewish Wedding Customs, and the fact, that WE ARE TO WATCH for the BRIDEGROOM to come starting from the very Moment HE spoke those words. Therefore, HE WILL appear as the Bridegroom BEFORE, HE comes as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords. Where are you going to be when that Shofar Trumpet of GOD blasts and the Archangel SHOUTS, Matthew 25:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'


[video=youtube;0jR20-0sy1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jR20-0sy1Y[/video]

Some Orthodox Jews still blow the Shofar Trumpets at the start of a Jewish Wedding, though many have changed to a Wedding Style that looks almost identical to a Christian Wedding.

At the bottom is a link to the BEST explanation of what Jewish Wedding Customs have already been fulfilled by JESUS, and those that HE will fulfill, possibly in the NEAR FUTURE. It is almost exactly identical to how I learned it back in the mid 80's. The Only thing that I would change is the statement: "We, the betrothed (Christ's Church )", should be worded Christ's Assemby, because the word CHURCH is technically Not in the original Greek, it actually said ASSEMBLY. Why is that important? Because the Messiah has been building HIS ASSEMBLY from the beginning starting with Adam. O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints are BOTH part of the Bride. Sure the timing of that event is referred to by some as a secret, but Only because HIS Father Alone has the right to determine when the Wedding Chamber is Finished. The EVENT is KNOWN by all who have the spiritual Understanding of the Parable of Ten Virgins.:

Jeremiah 2:2-3 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: "'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Israel was holy to the LORD, the firstfruits of his harvest; all who devoured her were held guilty, and disaster overtook them,'" declares the LORD.

Isaiah 61:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Isaiah 62:5 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


PlainWord - Please read all of what is on the following link. If for NO other reason, so that you will not continue to post lies (taught to you) about what we actually teach and believe.

End Times | Rapture & Jewish Wedding