When does the rapture occur?

[RobbyEarl]

Yeah, you folks keep saying that, but repeating something over and over doesn't make it any more true. It's a matter of faith, and the more I read and study, the less and less faith I can put in what you folks believe.

Well when He has put food on your table and provided a place to sleep, you see things differently.

 

[pwrnJC]

Lost_sheep.....

Since when are YOU (or anyone) to put your faith in what total strangers say on the internet to determine your faith anyway?

 

[RobbyEarl]

Lost_sheep.....

Since when are YOU (or anyone) to put your faith in what total strangers say on the internet to determine your faith anyway?

I'm the new guy here, But never place your faith in anything posted on the internet, place your faith on the work of the cross and nothing else.

 

[Lost_sheep]

I'm not putting my faith in any of you. That would be silly, especially based on what I have seen you all bicker about. My very short time here has proved to me that nobody but ME can help me. The rest of you can't even get out of your own way, let alone help anyone else out.

 

[RobbyEarl]

I'm not putting my faith in any of you. That would be silly, especially based on what I have seen you all bicker about. My very short time here has proved to me that nobody but ME can help me. The rest of you can't even get out of your own way, let alone help anyone else out.

Nobody but Me, go with that and you will fail. Mt brother the raeson why we Christians fight amongst each other is because some the Cross is not enough, we must keep law or observe a day or not eat pork. We go back and forth even about baptism of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The fact remains that the work of the cross is the only means that Men and women might be saved By their faith in it.

 

[RobbyEarl]

sorry for the typo,s

 

[Lost_sheep]

Yeah, I probably will fail by relying on myself, but when you folks can read the same passage of scripture and interpret it different ways, it's confusing as all get out to new people who have questions. How can I know what to believe? How can I trust that you tell the truth and aren't just trying to get me to believe what you believe even if you're wrong? When I see you folks arguing about stuff, I make a list of all the people involved so I know who to avoid asking questions to.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Yeah, I probably will fail by relying on myself, but when you folks can read the same passage of scripture and interpret it different ways, it's confusing as all get out to new people who have questions. How can I know what to believe? How can I trust that you tell the truth and aren't just trying to get me to believe what you believe even if you're wrong? When I see you folks arguing about stuff, I make a list of all the people involved so I know who to avoid asking questions to.

There is a simple answer, Get on your knees and pray and ask God for yourself and then read the word for yourself and not what some dude tells you. That is the problem with America , they listen to some dude and don't read it for them self.

 

[SilverFanng]

First the reason why it is good that we debate, discuss, and disagree is because we Christians are supposed to sharpen ourselves against each other as steel against steel. Do you know how a knife is sharpened? You have to grind away it's nicks, shaving off the metal that cannot be there if you want a sharp blade. No human has all the answers. Even Christ Himself, who was 100% human AND 100% God, didn't know when He was coming back. We, as children of God, must strive to seek out all of God's truths. He didn't tell us everything in the Bible. He withheld much in order to tell us later when we were ready.

Second, we do all interpret passages differently, but we shouldn't. It leads to confusion and God is not the author of confusion. I've been told this by so many spiritual guides in my life from family to pastors. Then it hit me: God didn't make it confusing. We did.

In order to remove the confusion we must swallow our pride, sit down with each other in humility, compare notes on how we perceive the prophecies, and each of us MUST be willing to discard all interpretations we've been taught by people and only let the truth come forward. Christ gave us the key to this map: we must empty ourselves in order that God might fill up our cup. Forget everything we've learned in our entire lives from people in any form and listen to what God says.

On the previous page I posted some of how I believe things will happen. Shall we have an intelligent discussion and let God teach us as we sharpen ourselves? Please criticise my view and point out its flaws in a calm and courteous manner.

 

[popeye]

Do you still not know what the purpose of the GT is?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

ANSWER: It is to purify and bring His people back to Him.

Do you know where the GT takes place?

Dan 12: And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered...

Mat 24: [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

ANSWER: It takes place in Israel.

The Church has a different, yet similar fate.

Rev 11: [SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

2 Thes 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed...

There is a falling away. The Church is mostly killed. The Two Witnesses are the two Churches, West (Roman Catholic) and East (Greek Orthodox). We are told in Rev 1 that the Church is a Lampstand. We are told in Rev 11 that the two witnesses are two lampstands. This is clear and there can be no debate as John is author of both passages and he wouldn't change symbolism. The Church split into East and West because of the Schism which began in 1054 AD.

We can deduce from the above symbolism and current world events that the West Church will be killed by Sodom or Gay Rights and that the East Church will be killed by Egypt which is the first beast to carry ISLAM. The Church is dead for 3.5 years which seems to coincide with the appearance of the Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist). The Church is then seen in heaven as the Great Multitude.

Hmmmm,you said two things I agree with

 

[GaryA]

That's a possibility. The world will follow the Antichrist thinking he IS Christ. Since the church is said to BE the temple of God today (the people not the buildings) it makes more sense that the abomination of desolation today will be the act of setting himself up in the hearts of the faithful as the Christ returned which is why belief in a rapture out of the tribulation before death is a dangerous doctrine which will lead to many believing in and looking to the wrong man. The most important thing to do is be cautious.

The important thing to do is to understand what the scriptures say about the Second Coming of Christ...


2 Thessalonians 1:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [SUP]8[/SUP] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [SUP]9[/SUP] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


If you "see Jesus" -- and this is not "the way it is going down" -- it is not Jesus!


It also helps to understand what the scriptures say about the End Times Scenario ( as a whole, in general ) -- so that you can "see it coming" -- and know what is real ( according to scripture ) and what is not...

 

[GaryA]

The most important thing to do is place our faith in what Jesus did at the cross in my view.

Yes -- that is absolutely the most important thing anyone can do.

 

[GaryA]

Threads like this are the reason non-Christians like me think so little of Christians. You all read the same book and yet none of you can agree what that book is telling you.

Christianity is confusing, muddled, murky, and a barrier to new people.

If you all could get your message straight and unify, you'd be the most powerful force on this Earth. As it is though, you're like a bunch of hens in a hen house.

Yeah, you folks keep saying that, but repeating something over and over doesn't make it any more true. It's a matter of faith, and the more I read and study, the less and less faith I can put in what you folks believe.

I'm not putting my faith in any of you. That would be silly, especially based on what I have seen you all bicker about. My very short time here has proved to me that nobody but ME can help me. The rest of you can't even get out of your own way, let alone help anyone else out.

In a way -- you are "on the right track"...

Part of the message of 'the book' is that -- God is everything, and we are nothing. That is -- we can do nothing without Him. He is the Author and Creator of "our world" ( including us ). He knows "better than anybody" how it works - what works - what doesn't - etc. He made it "for His own pleasure" -- and, He wants us to do things His way. He is the Creator, so He makes the rules.

What you must do -- is realize the reality and truth of the fact that "He is" -- and believe what He says:

~ Believe what He says about Himself.
~ Believe what He says about humans.
~ Believe what He says about Satan.
~ Believe what He says about Sin.
~ Believe what He says about His only begotton Son, Jesus the Christ - Who died for you so that you might live and not die. ( spiritually speaking )

"And then, when the light comes on - and you see clearly the reality of the thing..."

What you must do -- is believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ -- not just believe that He exists, but trust Him...

Don't listen to people nearly as much as you listen to God.

Don't focus on people. Keep your focus on God / Jesus.

Don't listen to Satan. He is your enemy; he wants you to not believe. He wants you to focus on people and not God / Jesus. He wants to keep you distracted so that you never really "get it" - and end up lost forever...

You have to do it God's way -- 'the book' tells you how -- and, it all starts with believing and trusting the one-and-only true living God that made you...

 

[GaryA]

Yeah, I probably will fail by relying on myself, but when you folks can read the same passage of scripture and interpret it different ways, it's confusing as all get out to new people who have questions. How can I know what to believe? How can I trust that you tell the truth and aren't just trying to get me to believe what you believe even if you're wrong? When I see you folks arguing about stuff, I make a list of all the people involved so I know who to avoid asking questions to.

Listen to Christians for 'direction', but listen to God for the 'answers'.

And - if a 'Christian' does not direct you to God / Jesus -- then, by all means, put them on your list of people to avoid asking questions to.

"What it all comes down to is -- how much you believe and trust in the God that made you..."

It is not about other people. It is about the relationship between you and God.

 

[GaryA]

First the reason why it is good that we debate, discuss, and disagree is because we Christians are supposed to sharpen ourselves against each other as steel against steel. Do you know how a knife is sharpened? You have to grind away it's nicks, shaving off the metal that cannot be there if you want a sharp blade. No human has all the answers. Even Christ Himself, who was 100% human AND 100% God, didn't know when He was coming back. We, as children of God, must strive to seek out all of God's truths. He didn't tell us everything in the Bible. He withheld much in order to tell us later when we were ready.

Second, we do all interpret passages differently, but we shouldn't. It leads to confusion and God is not the author of confusion. I've been told this by so many spiritual guides in my life from family to pastors. Then it hit me: God didn't make it confusing. We did.

In order to remove the confusion we must swallow our pride, sit down with each other in humility, compare notes on how we perceive the prophecies, and each of us MUST be willing to discard all interpretations we've been taught by people and only let the truth come forward. Christ gave us the key to this map: we must empty ourselves in order that God might fill up our cup. Forget everything we've learned in our entire lives from people in any form and listen to what God says.

On the previous page I posted some of how I believe things will happen. Shall we have an intelligent discussion and let God teach us as we sharpen ourselves? Please criticise my view and point out its flaws in a calm and courteous manner.

AMEN!!!!

 

[NayborBear]

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
  (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

In this posters opinion? It doesn't make me no never mind atall, when, or even IF there's a rapture...Cuz, ye ain't gonna be ready for it!

 

[SilverFanng]

The important thing to do is to understand what the scriptures say about the Second Coming of Christ...


2 Thessalonians 1:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [SUP]8[/SUP] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [SUP]9[/SUP] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


If you "see Jesus" -- and this is not "the way it is going down" -- it is not Jesus!


It also helps to understand what the scriptures say about the End Times Scenario ( as a whole, in general ) -- so that you can "see it coming" -- and know what is real ( according to scripture ) and what is not...

But you speak as though the fallen ones don't know this. They will send one who is EXACTLY like Christ. That's just what impostors do. I could be wrong about how that is the abomination which causes desolation but I do know that the Bible says he will deceive ALL.

 

[Jayoish]

Ahwatukee,

While I don't fully subscribe to that teaching; I do see how the Bible could bring someone to that understanding.

Within the body there is room for a great deal of difference in interpretation. I am confident that much of what I believe will be corrected when Jesus calls me to Himself. I think we go too far when we call everything we don't fully agree with 'false teaching'; unless we are persuaded of our own infallibility--- and that seems more dangerous than this 'false teaching'

JMO


Marc

That is correct, MarcR, people do have different interpretation of the Bible; however, that's the problem. We don't supposed to interpreting the Bible but let the Bible speak for itself. For every scripture, there is another scripture which will bring out that one and so on and so on, until you get a full understanding. We supposed to keep reading and connecting the scriptures to understand GOD's word, not interpret what it means. As the Bible states in Isaiah 28:10:

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

That is the way we supposed to read the Bible for understanding.

I hope this help someone,
Jayoish

 

[4enlightment]

i was wondering if these videos that has been floating around on the internet is true?


Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

[video]https://youtu.be/PG1d6bCFZQ0[/video]


Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

[video]https://youtu.be/a0lID3pnAuw[/video]

 

[GaryA]

i was wondering if these videos that has been floating around on the internet is true?


Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

[video]https://youtu.be/PG1d6bCFZQ0[/video]


Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

[video]https://youtu.be/a0lID3pnAuw[/video]

Regardless of the authenticity of the imagery ( which, quite honestly, I tend to doubt -- it is just too easy these days to "photo-shop" things ), I am quite certain ( read: very certain ) that they are not prophetic - as evidence of the verses you posted.