When does the rapture occur?

[john832]

Again, the tribulation; will Not be killing and persecution of the body: those are just the surface figures which convey a much more serious fate, which is not killing . It is not the death of the body.

Apparently you and I read this differently...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

After the Four Horseman and before the Heavenly Signs...

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[Hoffco]

To Professer, the rev.6 (sixth seal ) is the rapture and the rev.7, "multitude" is the raptured Church. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To Elin, you miss the truth that Jesus will be on earth in the Regeneration and in the restoration time, for the purpose to do just that , reg. and rest. all things. It will be over 1,000 yrs to rest. all things. The 12 disciples. of Acts one, (Less Judas) will be kings rules the earth from Jerusalem, for 1,000 yrs.. Love Hoffco ps. You destroy tooo much Bible, leaving out so much truth.

 

[JesusIsAll]

To Elin, you miss the truth that Jesus will be on earth in the Regeneration and in the restoration time, for the purpose to do just that , reg. and rest. all things. It will be over 1,000 yrs to rest. all things. The 12 disciples. of Acts one, (Less Judas) will be kings rules the earth from Jerusalem, for 1,000 yrs.. Love Hoffco ps. You destroy tooo much Bible, leaving out so much truth.

Hey, Hoffco! Do you believe you'll finish your next book, "Warren Wiersbe: My Hero" before the pre-tribulation rapture?

 

[PlainWord]

I disagree with it being Islam but the tribulation is real.

Consider these passages:

Rev 13:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Dan 7:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,

Mat 24:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Luke 18:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? [SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that He will avenge them speedily.

Rev 6:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

Rev 7:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne...
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said to him, “Sir,you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation...

2 Thes 1:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

Rev 18:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Render to her just as she rendered to you,and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

Ask yourself this. What group hates and kills Christians and Jews whenever and wherever they can? How about ISLAM? You see, once you understand who the Beast of the Sea is and that Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots is Islam and Mecca, then everything becomes much clearer.

The 8th BEAST KINGDOM will be ISLAMIC and already worships the same way as the Babylonians did. This false worship has roots all the way back to Egypt and Moses' Day. We've had 7 Beast Kingdoms all worshiping Satan and his symbol, the star and crescent.

Star and crescentA star and crescent featuring in some combination form the basis of symbols widely found across the ancient world, with examples attested from the Eastern Mediterranean, Persia and Central Asia. Wikipedia

This symbol was followed in Paul's day with the worship of Diana in Ephesus too.

 

[PlainWord]

Again, the tribulation; will Not be killing and persecution of the body: those are just the surface figures which convey a much more serious fate, which is not killing . It is not the death of the body.

The rapture cannot stand, if people would study the Bible fully to listen to what is being taught as its written. Antichrist, is not going to go around killing people. It is not what scriptures state. The worse fate is to worship him as messiah : that is the killing. And most people, because they have been told, its physical, they have not studied, that clearly puts them at risk now.

I suggest you acquaint yourself with Revelation Chapter 7. The great multitude don't get to heaven coming out of the Great Tribulation by transformation. They are killed. Suggest also you read Mat 24 and Luke 18. Actually, you can read my last post where I cite many passages of the Saints being overcome and killed.

 

[PlainWord]

To Professer, the rev.6 (sixth seal ) is the rapture and the rev.7, "multitude" is the raptured Church. Love Hoffco

Conjecture??? Where in those passages is it discussed that any living person is transformed and taken to heaven??? Actually, nowhere in the Bible is there such a passage. There is only conjecture - traditions of Man that make void the very word of God.

Nowhere is it taught that the Church at the end gets a pass to heaven. The church is PROMISED tribulation. Nowhere is the reverse taught.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Where is the above sound and repeated doctrine and promise reversed??? HUH dear Hoffco????

 

[Seifer5]

I suggest you acquaint yourself with Revelation Chapter 7. The great multitude don't get to heaven coming out of the Great Tribulation by transformation. They are killed. Suggest also you read Mat 24 and Luke 18. Actually, you can read my last post where I cite many passages of the Saints being overcome and killed.

They are overcome in a spiritual sense, the subject of the whole of the end time books. Christ was never about saving bodies. He went about saving the soul.

 

[PlainWord]

They are overcome in a spiritual sense, the subject of the whole of the end time books. Christ was never about saving bodies. He went about saving the soul.

While I agree there will also be a huge falling away and spiritual defeat for many Christians during the Tribulation as this is clearly taught, you cannot ignore the 5th seal nor Rev 20:4-6 which make clear there will be a great physical slaughter too. Satan is a murderer and was from the beginning. He has been killing Christians since Christ became the first fruits of those who would also be martyred.

 

[Markum1972]

They are overcome in a spiritual sense, the subject of the whole of the end time books. Christ was never about saving bodies. He went about saving the soul.

Huh? Didn't Jesus raise the dead and heal the sick?

 

[PlainWord]

Huh? Didn't Jesus raise the dead and heal the sick?

I seem to recall Jesus calming a storm thus preserving the flesh too..

 

[PlainWord]

They are overcome in a spiritual sense, the subject of the whole of the end time books. Christ was never about saving bodies. He went about saving the soul.

FLESH ALWAYS MEANS FLESH I am not aware of any spiritual translation for FLESH.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]

22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Clearly, the Great Tribulation will involve massive loss of life in addition to massive loss of faith and deception by Satan.

The 4th seal is the Great Tribulation - Satan's persecution (and killing) of God's children (both Jew and Christian). Since ISLAM has (soon will have) control over 1/4 of the world to kill by various means, it remains to be seen how they kill en mass. It does appear from the Great Multitude that they will be able to kill on a global scale at some point after the Ottoman Empire is re-established.

 

[Seifer5]

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The saving is not about the flesh. The way this should be understood, is no flesh man, would have salvation. Meaning no man's soul would be saved. Because, it is while they are in flesh, does the tribulation take place.

When Christ returns he will do away with it. So this is not referring to the flesh body being saved. That is what I mean by , this is a spiritual teaching. Its much more serious then people realize. If you insist that Christ, is going to rapture you away, then your mistaken.

Those who love Him, are expected to stay true to Him, during the tribulation. That's written. Everyone in scriptures had to go through trials. If you think somehow, there is a special group of people out there, God is going to say, no work for you, your special , then that's simple nothing I've ever read in scriptures when understood as a whole, not one verse here or there used to build; "rapture doctrines, and death and mayhem doctrines. "

 

[ELECT]

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure
ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

Those verses don't fit into your outline. They got to fit.

What is the wrath the 7 last plagues or hell ?
please note some will not recieve the plagues did or will they experience the wrath of God ? just something to think about

 

[ELECT]

Huh? Didn't Jesus raise the dead and heal the sick?

Why was John beheaded ?


Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Seifer5]

Why was John beheaded ?


Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul, is where we have to focus on protecting . The rapture is false, because it teaches you not only that you will not have to deal with trials. but , the other problem within the teaching is, the thought, that Antichrist, will be killing people.

It is true that people had to endure physical death during old times, and even today, but that all stops, at Antichrist arrival, and the killing takes on a serious tone, meaning the soul in deception is what it turns into.

Christ said no flesh would be saved, meaning they'd fall into apostasy, or in the English its put " falling away " ( 2 thess 2 ).

So if you figured out there is no rapture good. But, there is one more hurdle that people have to get passed, that is what the nature of the tribulation will be; to realize that, when death and killing is referred to in teachings about the false messiah, its Not talking about death of the body, but of the soul.

This among other places is why Michael, would say, Satan will be here deceiving the world, in Revelation 12 and Christ, in the next chapter, would teach "by means of those miracles; he caused people to die a spiritual death. )


The only two, physically killed will be the two witnesses. Everyone else is dead spiritually, who worship Satan at that time.

 

[PlainWord]

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The saving is not about the flesh. The way this should be understood, is no flesh man, would have salvation. Meaning no man's soul would be saved. Because, it is while they are in flesh, does the tribulation take place.

When Christ returns he will do away with it. So this is not referring to the flesh body being saved. That is what I mean by , this is a spiritual teaching. Its much more serious then people realize. If you insist that Christ, is going to rapture you away, then your mistaken.

Those who love Him, are expected to stay true to Him, during the tribulation. That's written. Everyone in scriptures had to go through trials. If you think somehow, there is a special group of people out there, God is going to say, no work for you, your special , then that's simple nothing I've ever read in scriptures when understood as a whole, not one verse here or there used to build; "rapture doctrines, and death and mayhem doctrines. "

I agree with you that the Rapture doctrine is a joke. It is an invention of man to scare people to the faith. The idea that Christ comes before the Tribulation to fly the church off to heaven has ABSOLUTELY ZERO basis in scripture. It is 100 percent conjecture and wishful thinking. The exact opposite is taught. We MUST endure tribulation and be hated by nations for His name sake. So, we agree on that.

But as I said, there will be both falling away of believers who "love their lives" and would rather deny Christ and live than to die and there will be those who "do not love their lives" to death. This last group will die for their faith. They are dying now.

 

[Hoffco]

AT the time of the 5th seal, the martyred church saints' souls/spirits are in heaven, no bodies yet, they will not be raised with the church ,at the 6th seal, they are told that they will be raisedafter the rapture, because they must wait for their fellow martyrs to be killed , the 144,000 Jews of the last 3.5 yrs of the 70th wk. of Daniel. Love Hoffco

 

[Straightshot]

"I agree with you that the Rapture doctrine is a joke. It is an invention of man to scare people to the faith. The idea that Christ comes before the Tribulation to fly the church off to heaven has ABSOLUTELY ZERO basis in scripture. It is 100 percent conjecture and wishful thinking. The exact opposite is taught. We MUST endure tribulation and be hated by nations for His name sake. So, we agree on that."


And so would the devil agree

Three things Satan hates the most:

The Lord, Israel, and the "snatch"

 

[kennethcadwell]

The thing is that most people think the rapture was not heard of until John Darby stated it in 1830.
The problem with this false teaching is that some of the early church fathers taught it before Darby coined it.

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples.
He wrote about the rapture in his book, "Against Heresies . "

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
He wrote about the rapture in his book, " Treatises of Cyprian . "

Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life.
He wrote in, " On The Last Times 2 " about the rapture.


There are even more documents that show the rapture ( even though not used in that term ) was taught by the early church, and is not just a made up theory by Darby.