When does the rapture occur?
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What facts did I miss? Can you show me a passage that locates the "rapture" before the Tribulation? Show me any passage that discusses the Lord returning in the clouds/air to do anything before the Tribulation.
The facts are:
1) There is no timing of the Lord found (either in the sky or where He touches down) found before the Tribulation/appearance of the Man of Sin.
2) There is no passage that discusses two distinct returns of the Lord.
3) There is no passage that discusses any living person being transformed and taken to heaven in a future event.
4) There is no passage this distinguishes between a "Saint" and a "Tribulation Era Saint."
The above concepts are Traditions of Men based on conjecture. If the "Pre-Trib" view was indeed Biblical, you would not need to manufacture it from multiple disconnected passages. If we were to be taught in the "Pre-Trib" Rapture God would have placed in the Bible a verse that goes something like this:
...And before the Great Tribulation, Christ will return to the clouds and send His angels to gather His church whereby they will be transformed and taken to heaven and avoid the Tribulation which shall befall the world...
I don't see a verse like this anywhere. Do you?
The facts are:
1) There is no timing of the Lord found (either in the sky or where He touches down) found before the Tribulation/appearance of the Man of Sin.
2) There is no passage that discusses two distinct returns of the Lord.
3) There is no passage that discusses any living person being transformed and taken to heaven in a future event.
4) There is no passage this distinguishes between a "Saint" and a "Tribulation Era Saint."
The above concepts are Traditions of Men based on conjecture. If the "Pre-Trib" view was indeed Biblical, you would not need to manufacture it from multiple disconnected passages. If we were to be taught in the "Pre-Trib" Rapture God would have placed in the Bible a verse that goes something like this:
...And before the Great Tribulation, Christ will return to the clouds and send His angels to gather His church whereby they will be transformed and taken to heaven and avoid the Tribulation which shall befall the world...
I don't see a verse like this anywhere. Do you?
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1 Thes 4 and 1 Thes 5 are a continuation of the same topic found in the same letter to the same church (group of believers) Paul did not put chapter and verse numbers in his letter. This was done later by others. Do you put chapter numbers and verses in letters you write?
Paul first tells us about the "EVENT" in 1 Thes 4 then in 1 Thes 5 he provides more detail. Paul CANNOT be telling the Church of Thessalonica on one hand that they are going to be Raptured in 1 Thes 4 then tell them on the second hand that they should watch and be sober for the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes 5. That makes no sense. If the Thessalonians were to be taken in 1 Thes 4, they would not be around to watch and be sober in 1 Thes 5!!
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
The "brethren" in the above are believers. If they were taken, then they would not be on earth for "this Day" to overtake them.
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
In the above Paul is discussing Final Judgment Wrath. There is (1) Salvation of Believers and (2) Condemnation and Judgment for Unbelievers. These are the only options availabe. When the Day of the Lord comes, Believers will be Saved and the Wicked will be condemned and face God's wrath.
The Great Tribulation is all about Satan's Wrath, not God's Wrath. It is Satan who is cast from heaven having great wrath because his time is short. It is Satan who wages war with the Saints and overcomes them. It is Satan who beheads and kills Christians and Jews. (this is happening now and is increasing) It is Satan who deceives the Nations.
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him... Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” ...he persecuted the woman (ISRAEL) who gave birth to the male Child... And the dragon was enraged with the woman (ISRAEL), and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (the CHURCH), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ...It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
JUDGE AND AVENGE!!! In other words - REVENGE
The above is the Great Tribulation. It is Satan persecuting and killing the Saints.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
Those Days (Tribulation of Satan against God's people, Church and Israel) must be shortened or even the ELECT (God's Chosen) would be killed. When Christ comes AFTER the Tribulation then we see the Wrath of the Lamb and of God being poured out on the wicked (Not the Believers) in response to what Satan and his cohorts have been doing to the Saints!!
Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! “Go and pour out the bowlsof the wrath of God...upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image." For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink.
You see, the Tribulation is all about the wicked persecuting the righteous and killing them/us in large numbers (Great Multitude in Heaven). God's wrath is in response and it comes AFTER the Tribulation and it is specifically targeted against those doing the persecuting and not against us. Paul makes this point very clear in 2 Thes 1:
[SUP]"...[/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,because our testimony among you was believed."
AMEN!!!
Paul first tells us about the "EVENT" in 1 Thes 4 then in 1 Thes 5 he provides more detail. Paul CANNOT be telling the Church of Thessalonica on one hand that they are going to be Raptured in 1 Thes 4 then tell them on the second hand that they should watch and be sober for the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes 5. That makes no sense. If the Thessalonians were to be taken in 1 Thes 4, they would not be around to watch and be sober in 1 Thes 5!!
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
The "brethren" in the above are believers. If they were taken, then they would not be on earth for "this Day" to overtake them.
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
In the above Paul is discussing Final Judgment Wrath. There is (1) Salvation of Believers and (2) Condemnation and Judgment for Unbelievers. These are the only options availabe. When the Day of the Lord comes, Believers will be Saved and the Wicked will be condemned and face God's wrath.
The Great Tribulation is all about Satan's Wrath, not God's Wrath. It is Satan who is cast from heaven having great wrath because his time is short. It is Satan who wages war with the Saints and overcomes them. It is Satan who beheads and kills Christians and Jews. (this is happening now and is increasing) It is Satan who deceives the Nations.
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him... Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” ...he persecuted the woman (ISRAEL) who gave birth to the male Child... And the dragon was enraged with the woman (ISRAEL), and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring (the CHURCH), who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ...It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
JUDGE AND AVENGE!!! In other words - REVENGE
The above is the Great Tribulation. It is Satan persecuting and killing the Saints.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
Those Days (Tribulation of Satan against God's people, Church and Israel) must be shortened or even the ELECT (God's Chosen) would be killed. When Christ comes AFTER the Tribulation then we see the Wrath of the Lamb and of God being poured out on the wicked (Not the Believers) in response to what Satan and his cohorts have been doing to the Saints!!
Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! “Go and pour out the bowlsof the wrath of God...upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image." For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink.
You see, the Tribulation is all about the wicked persecuting the righteous and killing them/us in large numbers (Great Multitude in Heaven). God's wrath is in response and it comes AFTER the Tribulation and it is specifically targeted against those doing the persecuting and not against us. Paul makes this point very clear in 2 Thes 1:
[SUP]"...[/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,because our testimony among you was believed."
AMEN!!!
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P
Paul first tells us about the "EVENT" in 1 Thes 4 then in 1 Thes 5 he provides more detail. Paul CANNOT be telling the Church of Thessalonica on one hand that they are going to be Raptured in 1 Thes 4 then tell them on the second hand that they should watch and be sober for the Day of the Lord in 1 Thes 5. That makes no sense. If the Thessalonians were to be taken in 1 Thes 4, they would not be around to watch and be sober in 1 Thes 5!!
The 10 virgin parable has saints leaving with Jesus and saints staying behind.
Postrib or midtrib,under your model,has saints in what you call "wrath"
Factor in the pretrib verses.
The 10 virgin parable has saints leaving with Jesus and saints staying behind.
Postrib or midtrib,under your model,has saints in what you call "wrath"
Factor in the pretrib verses.
P
Many think they are Elijah and either Enoch or Moses. But, the two witnesses are described as follows:
Rev 11:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
If you notice, the two witnesses are not identified as human or men. However, they are said to have bodies and said to be killed by the "Beast" who ascends from the bottomless pit and wages WAR against them. War isn't typically waged against two people. Therefore the passage is most likely spiritual and not literal.
The two witnesses are most likely the Church and Israel. The church is identified as a lampstand(s) earlier in Revelation 1:
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Zech 4 states:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” [SUP]
12 [/SUP]And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptaclesof the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”
And I said, “No, my lord.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”
So Zechariah and John use the same description of olive trees and lampstands and that they stand beside the Lord of the whole earth. We know from Romans 11 that Paul describes the Gentile Church as being a wild olive tree "grafted" in with the natural olive tree and that Israel and the church will one day become ONE.
If you consider that the "Beast" wages war first with Israel then with her offspring it seems clear that there are two witnesses on earth today who declare the true God and those are Israel and the church. Further proof of this is that the symbol of the two olive trees and two lampstands are now in use by Israel. The below symbol is a perfect match of both Zechariah and Revelation.
If you look close you will see this symbol behind Prime Minister Netanyahu.
Rev 11:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
If you notice, the two witnesses are not identified as human or men. However, they are said to have bodies and said to be killed by the "Beast" who ascends from the bottomless pit and wages WAR against them. War isn't typically waged against two people. Therefore the passage is most likely spiritual and not literal.
The two witnesses are most likely the Church and Israel. The church is identified as a lampstand(s) earlier in Revelation 1:
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Zech 4 states:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” [SUP]
12 [/SUP]And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptaclesof the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”
And I said, “No, my lord.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”
So Zechariah and John use the same description of olive trees and lampstands and that they stand beside the Lord of the whole earth. We know from Romans 11 that Paul describes the Gentile Church as being a wild olive tree "grafted" in with the natural olive tree and that Israel and the church will one day become ONE.
If you consider that the "Beast" wages war first with Israel then with her offspring it seems clear that there are two witnesses on earth today who declare the true God and those are Israel and the church. Further proof of this is that the symbol of the two olive trees and two lampstands are now in use by Israel. The below symbol is a perfect match of both Zechariah and Revelation.
If you look close you will see this symbol behind Prime Minister Netanyahu.
The 'LITERAL" ,as we read it,fits pretrib perfectly.
So why do you need it to be allegory?????
So, thief in the night is a reference to the Rapture? Is that your view? If so, let me ask you this. Are the below passages a reference to the rapture or to the Second Coming?
Mat 24:
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Rev 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Is the Rapture before or after the Battle of Armageddon?
1 Thessalonians 5:2 NKJV
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
[h=4]2 Peter 3:10 NKJV[/h] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Do the heavens pass away before the Tribulation?? There is only one future return of the Lord and all accounts are consistent. You can't say the Rapture return is as a thief when clearly it is the Second coming which is as a thief.
Mat 24:
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Rev 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Is the Rapture before or after the Battle of Armageddon?
1 Thessalonians 5:2 NKJV
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
[h=4]2 Peter 3:10 NKJV[/h] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Do the heavens pass away before the Tribulation?? There is only one future return of the Lord and all accounts are consistent. You can't say the Rapture return is as a thief when clearly it is the Second coming which is as a thief.
Someone doesn't know their Bible. We are told repeatedly that Satan overcomes the Saints during the Tribulation. The slaughter goes on until the Lord returns and stops it.
Rev 11:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."
Dan 7:21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came...
Rev 11:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."
Dan 7:21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came...
1. No human names are given for the witnesses.
2. They are not called men.
3. They are killed in a "spiritual place" called Sodom and Egypt. Are Sodom and Egypt the same literal place? You know where Egypt is located (and it hasn't moved). Sodom is to the south west of the Dead Sea in Jordon. How can they both be killed and their bodies displayed in two separate locations?
4. War is waged against them. Do you wage war against two people? Seems like a little overkill.
5. The BEAST that ascends from the Bottomless Pit kills them. We know Satan overcomes the Saints, but only 2 of them?
6. Olive Tree is a name given to the unified Israel and the Church.
7. Candlestick is a name give to the church.
8. The church was given power to inflect harm and defeat its spiritual enemies (Luke 10)
Revelation is loaded with Spiritual symbolism. Is it possible the two witnesses are two literally people? Yes of course, but it is just as possible they are not. If they are the Church and Israel that means the 1,260 days are prophetic years because it was exactly 1,260 years from when the Dome of the Rock was set up (688 AD) on the Temple Mount (the Abomination of Desolation) until Israel became a state in 1948.
2. They are not called men.
3. They are killed in a "spiritual place" called Sodom and Egypt. Are Sodom and Egypt the same literal place? You know where Egypt is located (and it hasn't moved). Sodom is to the south west of the Dead Sea in Jordon. How can they both be killed and their bodies displayed in two separate locations?
4. War is waged against them. Do you wage war against two people? Seems like a little overkill.
5. The BEAST that ascends from the Bottomless Pit kills them. We know Satan overcomes the Saints, but only 2 of them?
6. Olive Tree is a name given to the unified Israel and the Church.
7. Candlestick is a name give to the church.
8. The church was given power to inflect harm and defeat its spiritual enemies (Luke 10)
Revelation is loaded with Spiritual symbolism. Is it possible the two witnesses are two literally people? Yes of course, but it is just as possible they are not. If they are the Church and Israel that means the 1,260 days are prophetic years because it was exactly 1,260 years from when the Dome of the Rock was set up (688 AD) on the Temple Mount (the Abomination of Desolation) until Israel became a state in 1948.
Sorry, my bad on two counts:
1. I shouldn't have insinuated you were 'nuts'. That was not nice.
2. I made the mistake of not specifying that I was referring to present day Saints like you and I who will not incur the wrath of the Tribulation.
You see, those who miss the boat will still be able to repent but must endure the wrath of the Tribulation. That is the context of your Rev. 13:7. I think many would agree that you should not have clipped off the "...it was given unto him" when speaking about Saints being overcome by Satan. That would have shed a differently colored light on the matter, don't you think? That would have put the big Ka'baash on your big bold red letter statement about it not being God's wrath.
1. I shouldn't have insinuated you were 'nuts'. That was not nice.
2. I made the mistake of not specifying that I was referring to present day Saints like you and I who will not incur the wrath of the Tribulation.
You see, those who miss the boat will still be able to repent but must endure the wrath of the Tribulation. That is the context of your Rev. 13:7. I think many would agree that you should not have clipped off the "...it was given unto him" when speaking about Saints being overcome by Satan. That would have shed a differently colored light on the matter, don't you think? That would have put the big Ka'baash on your big bold red letter statement about it not being God's wrath.
Seem to me the 2 witnesses is not Israel and church. From what I remember these two witnesses is only have 42 month before they kill. The church is here for 2000 years and Israel is more then 70 years from independent.
Yes on persecution, Christian have been in persecution in the entirely history, from Jesus, Stephen, in Rome history/Nero, up.
Always in some part of the world Christian a persecuted and kill.
In the Muslim country, In some Buddhist country, In some part of India, China, Inquisition by Catholic, In Russia.
Just because not in America doesn't mean Christian are free from persecution and killing.
G
Please explain the parts highlighted in red:
Revelation 11:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [SUP]4[/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5[/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [SUP]6[/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [SUP]7[/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8[/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [SUP]9[/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [SUP]10[/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [SUP]11[/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [SUP]12[/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
So --- are you saying:
Israel and the Church are going to kill their enemies with fire...?
Israel and the Church are going to "smite the earth with all plagues"...?
The beast is going to kill Israel and the Church...?
The whole world will see the dead bodies of Israel and the Church lie in the street, and not allow them to be buried...?
Revelation 11:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [SUP]4[/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5[/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [SUP]6[/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [SUP]7[/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8[/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [SUP]9[/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [SUP]10[/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [SUP]11[/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [SUP]12[/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
So --- are you saying:
Israel and the Church are going to kill their enemies with fire...?
Israel and the Church are going to "smite the earth with all plagues"...?
The beast is going to kill Israel and the Church...?
The whole world will see the dead bodies of Israel and the Church lie in the street, and not allow them to be buried...?
P
Please explain the parts highlighted in red:
Revelation 11:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [SUP]4[/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5[/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [SUP]6[/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [SUP]7[/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8[/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [SUP]9[/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [SUP]10[/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [SUP]11[/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [SUP]12[/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
So --- are you saying:
Israel and the Church are going to kill their enemies with fire...?
Israel and the Church are going to "smite the earth with all plagues"...?
The beast is going to kill Israel and the Church...?
The whole world will see the dead bodies of Israel and the Church lie in the street, and not allow them to be buried...?
Revelation 11:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [SUP]4[/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5[/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [SUP]6[/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [SUP]7[/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8[/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [SUP]9[/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [SUP]10[/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [SUP]11[/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [SUP]12[/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
So --- are you saying:
Israel and the Church are going to kill their enemies with fire...?
Israel and the Church are going to "smite the earth with all plagues"...?
The beast is going to kill Israel and the Church...?
The whole world will see the dead bodies of Israel and the Church lie in the street, and not allow them to be buried...?
No brainer
They are 2 men ...literally