When does the rapture occur?

[JesusIsAll]

ANY MEANS BY WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED.

Your font is still too small to prove truth.

Now I'm going to try to say this with Love, although you will be offended.

Really? Moi? We should not assign ourselves powers we don't have by fiat.

 

[Femalelamb]

Even Jesus Sid only the Faher knows the Day or time. We are none promised tomorrow. That being said it is important to understand the scriptures but also that we realize each of us has to do what is right in love today. Are we hearing His voice today? Are we saying what He says? Are we doing what He says do? What we think about God is the most important thing about us.

 

[VCO]

Why is it that people think [ whether His feet touch the ground or not ] determines whether He "came back" or not?

If He "came back" and hovered 6 inches above the ground - but did not touch the ground - did He "come back"...???

If He "came back" and hovered 6 miles above the ground - did He "come back"...???

In the "big picture" of:

~ He came ( first coming )

~ He left ( to go to the Father )

~ He is coming back ( second coming )

Don't you realize that -- the next time He "comes back" ( ANYTHING that constitutes "coming back" -- "leaving heaven and coming back" ) -- it is considered to be His second coming...???

If He comes back and "just barely" enters the Earth's atmosphere -- He STILL came back. And, it would be considered His second coming.

Show me the Chapter and Verse on that one. YOU, all by yourself, have put JESUS on HOUSE ARREST in Heaven, and YOU are forbidding HIM to travel anywhere outside of Heaven; just so you can protect your anti-Pretrib THEORY.

It is NOT a Second Coming to Earth until HIS feet touch the ground:

Zechariah 14:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.

THEN AND ONLY THEN IS IT THE SECOND COMING TO EARTH.

 

[PlainWord]

Your font is still too small to prove truth.



Really? Moi? We should not assign ourselves powers we don't have by fiat.

. If I make it smaller would it help???

Who do you think Paul was warning, just curious?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means;

Who do you think Jesus was warning?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

Which of us thinks Christ comes before the Man of Sin?

Obviously someone gets deceived. Who gets deceived then, those pesky and elusive Tribulation Saints? It's always someone else isn't it? . Paul and 11 of 12 disciples were killed. Peter was crucified upside down. Stephen was stoned to death. John the Baptist was beheaded. Are any of them less of a Christian than you or I? I'm a wicked sinner who doesn't deserve to be saved and I am certainly not on the level of any of the aforementioned. Why should I be spared a horrible death for believing in Christ? What makes us so special that we are to be flown off the planet while all those I mentioned died horrible deaths for their faith?

You have the Not Me mentality my dear fellow.

 

[PlainWord]

Show me the Chapter and Verse on that one. YOU, all by yourself, have put JESUS on HOUSE ARREST in Heaven, and YOU are forbidding HIM to travel anywhere outside of Heaven; just so you can protect your anti-Pretrib THEORY.

It is NOT a Second Coming to Earth until HIS feet touch the ground:

Zechariah 14:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.

THEN AND ONLY THEN IS IT THE SECOND COMING TO EARTH.

I know you addressed this to Gary but I can't resist taking that "tap in for birdie putt."

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other... ...Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Christ gathers His Elect from the four corners then they all descend to Mount Zion together. Do you see a U-turn? I don't.

FYI, the Zech 14 passage isn't the Return of Christ, it is the Return of God the Father. Why did you stop at verse 4? Read on one more verse to verse 5 and Zechariah tells you which "Lord" it is:

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

What do you think, God stays in heaven all by Himself and misses out on the fun?

 

[VCO]

Including the martyred Tribulation saints...???

Yes, they arrive spiritually under the Altar throughout the Seven Years, instantly as they are beheaded. The Fact that the ELDERS are already there, indicates the Church and OT Saints have already arrived. The Tribulation Saints receive their resurrected glorified bodies, immediately after HIS RETURN to Earth, While we Receive them at the Calling Out of the Bride seven years earlier. All three groups are part of the Wedding of the Lamb.

Who then are the Tribulation Saints? Most likely a LOT OF JEWISH CONVERTS, and some of the Fence Setters who had delayed making a decision to RECEIVE Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER, one day too long. They certainly will all be beheaded when they refuse to take the mark of allegiance to the Antichrist.

 

[JesusIsAll]

. If I make it smaller would it help???

No. But if you made it vanish, I'd call that progress.

Who do you think Paul was warning, just curious?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means;

Paul was simply warning that buggers like post-tribbers would come along.

The rest? God's wrath, versus Satan's and man's, et cetera times one hundred, if you don't have Alzheimer's, please make an effort to remember your previous conversations. We're long past the invention of the wheel, don't you think?

 

[popeye]

popeye - you do not realize this yet -- but, none of this actually "answers" any of the four things in the first quote bubble above. You do not realize it yet -- but, you are starting with the "conclusion" and working "backwards" --- "you can't do that - it doesn't work" --- you cannot use the conclusion ( that you are trying to "arrive at" ) as the premise for the proof of that conclusion.

If you are going to understand what the Bible actually says on [ any particular subject matter ], you must give up whatever "assumptions" are built-in to what you were taught...

Uh,all I need is us in heaven during the gt.
I have demonstrrated this HANDS DOWN. You have no case.
Your doctrine prohibits us from heaven. (Uturn you guys invented ...remember?)

 

[MarcR]

originally posted by GaryA

All you have to do is provide one passage that tells us:

1) Christ returns before the Tribulation
2) Christ returns twice
3) Any living person is taken to heaven
4) A teaching that makes a distinction between a pre-trib and trib saint.

3) Any living person is taken to heaven 1 Th 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV



2) Christ returns twice

the pasage above does not speak of a return; it speaks of the Church being caught up (raptured) to meet Jesus in the air. According to first century Jewish understanding of spatial relationships, the atmosphere was regarded as part of heaven.

 

[popeye]

If pretribs are weak wimpy basket cases emotionally driven and on the verge of denouncng Christ at the appearing of AC,and postribs portray themselves as these powerhouses of stamina and faith,ready to take on the AC,then how do they figure to "endure to the end",rolleyes,when he kills every saint refusing the mark?

Hiding in a cave? A cabin in the woods? Assimilating with a tribe in south america?
You can''t have it both ways.What will you be hiding for?(in order to make a supposed postrib rapture)

Why is it in rev 20 only martyrs are classified as refusing the mark? Aren't there millions who refused the mark and llived?

hello? dot conecting time? time to get real,real creative once again.

 

[PlainWord]

No. But if you made it vanish, I'd call that progress.

Yeah, I bet.

The rest? God's wrath, versus Satan's and man's, et cetera times one hundred, if you don't have Alzheimer's, please make an effort to remember your previous conversations. We're long past the invention of the wheel, don't you think?

Those pesky Tribulation Saints. They are the worst aren't they; unrepentant Jews and fence sitting Christians? God is really gonna let them have it. Seems like they get it worse than those who took the Mark of the Beast. Beheaded verses getting consumed by fire. Fire sounds quicker. Did you see how small those knives were that Isis was using? Probably took 5-10 minutes to die.

 

[PlainWord]

If pretribs are weak wimpy basket cases emotionally driven and on the verge of denouncng Christ at the appearing of AC,and postribs portray themselves as these powerhouses of stamina and faith,ready to take on the AC,then how do they figure to "endure to the end",rolleyes,when he kills every saint refusing the mark?

Didn't say you were weak. The best way to avoid death during the Tribulation is to stay away from the Muslim world. John calls it, "the earth." Sadly, most Christians don't die by not taking the mark. As I pointed out a dozen times, not taking the mark has nothing to do with being killed. Not worshiping the image of the beast gets you killed. But the image of the Beast is in a set location (I'm guessing the Wailing Wall or St. Peters, somewhere like that). My plan is to stay away from any of those major Holy Sites. We know the A of D is set up in a Holy Place so if you aren't there, who is going to see you not worshiping?

 

[popeye]

Union of bride and groom IN HEAVEN;

Only the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus.

Now why do postribs never,ever initiate this dynamic?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Exit word of God, stage right, then enters PlainWord.

Those pesky Tribulation Saints. They are the worst aren't they; unrepentant Jews and fence sitting Christians? God is really gonna let them have it. Seems like they get it worse than those who took the Mark of the Beast. Beheaded verses getting consumed by fire. Fire sounds quicker. Did you see how small those knives were that Isis was using? Probably took 5-10 minutes to die.

 

[VCO]

I know you addressed this to Gary but I can't resist taking that "tap in for birdie putt."

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other... ...Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Christ gathers His Elect from the four corners then they all descend to Mount Zion together. Do you see a U-turn? I don't.

FYI, the Zech 14 passage isn't the Return of Christ, it is the Return of God the Father. Why did you stop at verse 4? Read on one more verse to verse 5 and Zechariah tells you which "Lord" it is:

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

What do you think, God stays in heaven all by Himself and misses out on the fun?

Then you are the only one I know on earth that believes that. IT says it is the LAMB, Jesus Christ, who is GOD in the Flesh, meaning the Spirit in Jesus is part of GOD. You don't believe Jesus is GOD in the Flesh, do you?

ALSO REMEMBER NOT TO PUT GOD IN A BOX. He is Not a old man with a white beard, that is Santa Claus. GOD IS OMNIPRESENT AT ALL TIMES.

The gathering mentioned there most likely is the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints. The Holocaust the Nazi's committed will be SMALL in comparison to the HOLOCAUST of the Great Tribulation. The 144,000 Jews, exited Jerusalem through the split in the Mount of Olives, they remain in their mortal bodies and are protected in that GOD made VALLEY. WE are on the the white Horses behind HIM.

He will Come as Bridegroom First to Call Out His BRIDE, then Seven years later HE the will come with GREAT POWER AND GLORY. Here is the parallel verses in Revelation:


Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


What is the difference between His appearing as a Bridegroom, and HIS COMING BACK as KING of kings?

One is VERY FAST like lightning flashing across the sky, and the other is VERY SLOW allowing time for all the armies of the world to gather in the Valley of Megiddo.

 

[JesusIsAll]

(Uturn you guys invented ...remember?)

It was just a plot by Duncan to sell more Christians a yoyo.

 

[PlainWord]

3) Any living person is taken to heaven 1 Th 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV



2) Christ returns twice

the pasage above does not speak of a return; it speaks of the Church being caught up (raptured) to meet Jesus in the air. According to first century Jewish understanding of spatial relationships, the atmosphere was regarded as part of heaven.

Is the air, heaven? Just asking.

Also, where do you see "Church" used in 1 Thes 4? I see a remnant, a very small group as in "those who are still alive and remaining after the Tribulation. That's how I read it. This group survives something really bad.

It would be like saying, "Those who are alive and remaining after the Titanic sunk" verses saying, "those who are alive and remaining after a calm restful day at the beach." . Love ya man!!

 

[popeye]

As I pointed out a dozen times, not taking the mark has nothing to do with being killed.

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[PlainWord]

Exit word of God, stage right, then enters PlainWord.

HAHAHA. If a spiritual being shows up tonight at your house and tells you he is an angel sent from Christ to gather you to the Rapture, do you go with him?

 

[JesusIsAll]

HAHAHA. If a spiritual being shows up tonight at your house and tells you he is an angel sent from Christ to gather you to the Rapture, do you go with him?

Depends how big the font is on his business card.