When does the rapture occur?
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Satan is chained at end of the great tribulation. Sealed and placed in abyss for 1000 years. He will not be able to deceive the nations of the planet during this time. No more wars . Christ will turn their weapons of wars into plowshares and pruning hooks. Agronomy 101. As He rules from Jerusalem . literally in person
G
I believe that the [ general, default ] "sense and tense" of the word 'last' is relative, not absolute.
It is only absolute when it is used in a way that specifically defines it as such.
In terms of perspective:
It is 'absolute' within the group of days.
It is 'relative' outside of the group of days.
The "last day" can only be defined by the group of days whereby it is the last day of that group of days.
I believe that the context of scripture must define what group of days the "last day" is the last day of.
There are no more days in a group of days after the last day of that group of days; however, that does not mean that there are no days existant after that last day.
In other words - unless it is specifically defined as "the last existant day" - there exists an 'outside' perspective; thereby making it a 'relative' term....
Make sense?
It is only absolute when it is used in a way that specifically defines it as such.
In terms of perspective:
It is 'absolute' within the group of days.
It is 'relative' outside of the group of days.
The "last day" can only be defined by the group of days whereby it is the last day of that group of days.
I believe that the context of scripture must define what group of days the "last day" is the last day of.
There are no more days in a group of days after the last day of that group of days; however, that does not mean that there are no days existant after that last day.
In other words - unless it is specifically defined as "the last existant day" - there exists an 'outside' perspective; thereby making it a 'relative' term....
Make sense?
well we ARE reigning on the earth (Rom 5.17; Eph 2.5-6)
seems I'm right after all
seems I'm right after all
Not as PRIESTS in the KINGDOM TEMPLE YET.
Not as the Bride of Christ YET, because the Wedding will be in His Father's House.
How do we get back and forth between the New City Jerusalem and the Kingdom Temple on Earth?
God showed us there is a way. It is called Jacob's Ladder.
G
I believe that there is...
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the 'grammar of the language', the "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city' is that of "cut-off time-limit" / "bring to an close" / "bring to an end" ( i.e. - a "one-shot" span ) -- and not "meted out allotment", as in "a little now, a little later" ( as if 'spent' in increments ).
The effect of it is to say "you have 490 more years" [ from now ] "and you're done"...
It is indicating that "in the next 490 years, the following will be accomplished" :
~ to finish the transgression
~ to make an end of sins
~ to make reconciliation for iniquity
~ to bring in everlasting righteousness
~ to seal up the vision and prophecy
~ to anoint the most Holy
All of these were accomplished during the First Coming of Christ.
The prophecy is pointing to the 'end' of the "times of the Jews" ( my phrase, patterned after the "times of the Gentiles" from Luke 21:24 ).
Daniel 9:
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the 'grammar of the language', the "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city' is that of "cut-off time-limit" / "bring to an close" / "bring to an end" ( i.e. - a "one-shot" span ) -- and not "meted out allotment", as in "a little now, a little later" ( as if 'spent' in increments ).
The effect of it is to say "you have 490 more years" [ from now ] "and you're done"...
It is indicating that "in the next 490 years, the following will be accomplished" :
~ to finish the transgression
~ to make an end of sins
~ to make reconciliation for iniquity
~ to bring in everlasting righteousness
~ to seal up the vision and prophecy
~ to anoint the most Holy
All of these were accomplished during the First Coming of Christ.
The prophecy is pointing to the 'end' of the "times of the Jews" ( my phrase, patterned after the "times of the Gentiles" from Luke 21:24 ).
1 John 2:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Have you made up a good excuse yet for turning your ears away from the Truth?
PlainWord & GaryA,
Youand many others view the rapture and the second coming as a single event. Crossnote & I, and many others view them as separate events. Since we have already stated our case and are unlikely to persuade each other; how about we stop bickering and Let the Lord persuade us or you or all of us of the truth when He comes for us.
Youand many others view the rapture and the second coming as a single event. Crossnote & I, and many others view them as separate events. Since we have already stated our case and are unlikely to persuade each other; how about we stop bickering and Let the Lord persuade us or you or all of us of the truth when He comes for us.
"More than most..."
Never in my life have I believed that Zechariah 14:4 was describing anything that happened in 70 A.D. -- I believe that it is most definitely referring to the Second Coming of Christ.
I have heard many a sermon by the three men listed above. ( And some others not in your list. ) They are all still wrong about the End Times Scenario if they believe in the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" lie that has ravaged the U.S.A. for so long...
I was raised with that teaching - "I know all about it" - and, I have found it to be in error.
. . .
Never in my life have I believed that Zechariah 14:4 was describing anything that happened in 70 A.D. -- I believe that it is most definitely referring to the Second Coming of Christ.
I have heard many a sermon by the three men listed above. ( And some others not in your list. ) They are all still wrong about the End Times Scenario if they believe in the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" lie that has ravaged the U.S.A. for so long...
I was raised with that teaching - "I know all about it" - and, I have found it to be in error.
. . .
You missed my whole point. That is that the 70th Week of Daniel, ENDS with the events described in Zechariah 14:4-5.
G
there were large numbers of possessed people in Jesus' day, but He still said that He had bound Satan. I prefer to believe Jesus.
I realise Satan is described as going around like a raging lion, but I did not realise that it was an African lion LOL Do you really think you can compare a lion with the most powerful being in the universe apart from God? Now I understand why you have problems..
I realise Satan is described as going around like a raging lion, but I did not realise that it was an African lion LOL Do you really think you can compare a lion with the most powerful being in the universe apart from God? Now I understand why you have problems..
i.e. - the end of the 70th week of Daniel is past history; the events of Zechariah 14:4-5 are future - with ~2000 years between...
1) prophecy concerning the taking of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes (12.1-5).
2) The response of the Maccabees (12.7-9).
3) the coming of John and Jesus to turn the nation back to God in the power of the Holy Spirit (12.10-14)
4) The opening of the fountain of sin and uncleanness (13.1).
5) Christ's dealing with idolatry and false prophecy (13.2-6).
6) The smiting of the Shepherd (13.7).
7) The subsequent division of Israel with a proportion following the Messiah and the remainder being prepared for judgment (13.8-9).
8). The destruction of Jerusalem (14.1-2).
THE NEW AGE.
9). The Messiah stands on the mount of olives (14.3).
10). The consequence of His coming in that olive trees (witnesses - Zech 4) are despatched north and south (14.4).
11). His followers flee from Jerusalem taking the Gospel to the world (14.5),
12). He will bring warmth and permanent light to the world (14.6-7).
13). Living waters will go out to the world (14.8; John 7.37-39).
14). The Messiah takes His throne in Heaven (14.9; Acts 2.30, 36).
15} Jerusalem is exalted to Heaven (14.10-11; Gal 4.20 ff; Heb 12.20-22; Revelation).
16). God's judgment on those who attack His people (14.12-13).
17). The Jews will persecute God's people (14.14).
18). The nations will worship YHWH in this age in the heavenly Temple (14,16-21).
I believe that the [ general, default ] "sense and tense" of the word 'last' is relative, not absolute.
It is only absolute when it is used in a way that specifically defines it as such.
In terms of perspective:
It is 'absolute' within the group of days.
It is 'relative' outside of the group of days.
The "last day" can only be defined by the group of days whereby it is the last day of that group of days.
I believe that the context of scripture must define what group of days the "last day" is the last day of.
There are no more days in a group of days after the last day of that group of days; however, that does not mean that there are no days existant after that last day.
In other words - unless it is specifically defined as "the last existant day" - there exists an 'outside' perspective; thereby making it a 'relative' term....
Make sense?
It is only absolute when it is used in a way that specifically defines it as such.
In terms of perspective:
It is 'absolute' within the group of days.
It is 'relative' outside of the group of days.
The "last day" can only be defined by the group of days whereby it is the last day of that group of days.
I believe that the context of scripture must define what group of days the "last day" is the last day of.
There are no more days in a group of days after the last day of that group of days; however, that does not mean that there are no days existant after that last day.
In other words - unless it is specifically defined as "the last existant day" - there exists an 'outside' perspective; thereby making it a 'relative' term....
Make sense?
the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
This "Last Day" is also known as "The Day of the Lord." The Day of the Lord is a well taught OT and NT concept I believe first used by David when he referred to it as "The Day of His Wrath."
Psalm 110:5
The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
Isaiah 24:21
It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones, And on the earth the kings of the earth.
Ezekiel 39:8
Surely it is coming, and it shall be done,” says the Lord God. “This is the day of which I have spoken.
Ezekiel 39:13
Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord God.
Joel 2:11
The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?
Zephaniah 1:2
“I will utterly consume everything From the face of the land,” Says the Lord;
Zephaniah 3:8
“Therefore wait for Me,” says the Lord, “Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations To My assembly of kingdoms, To pour on them My indignation, All My fierce anger; All the earth shall be devoured With the fire of My jealousy.
1 Corinthians 1:8
who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
There are many more examples of what happens on the Day of the Lord, which is also the Day of Vengeance and also the Day of the Resurrection and the Day of Judgment, and also the Day Israel is completely restored to the Land and all enemies are forceably removed. God and the Saints are glorified, the wicked are punished. All of this happens on the Day the Lord returns which is the LAST DAY. Now, does all of this happen on one literal earth day? Maybe not. But when it starts there will be no doubt about it.
A study of the above events makes clear that all of these things, which will take place, begin to take place and don't stop until they are finished. God is NOT going to do a partial resurrection, judgment and rapture then allow Satan to carry out a Great Tribulation then come back to finish the job. Nothing suggests a break for the Church thus nothing suggests a Pre-Trib Rapture. Satan gets to test all of us (some will fail and some will die) but after this test, God has the final say.
