When does this judgment begin? Discussion Thread.

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Aug 11, 2019
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#21
The letter of the law as the source of death will be tossed into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn forever more/
I do not believe that for a second:

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

The letter is as eternal as the Word (Psa. 119:151-152).

Back to the OP please.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#22
Revelation 14:6-7 does not mention "wrath" at all, and the word is different, being "judgment", not "wrath" in English or koine Greek. Revelation 14:9-11 does mention "wrath" being yet future ("shall drink", not 'is now drinking'), not present tense as "is come" for the "judgment" "hour" spoken of while "the everlasting gospel" still goes forward.
You are dealing with one that takes the words of lost men hiding in caves over the actual announcement made in heaven before the throne that the wrath of God has come....he absolutely believes that the Great Tribulation and Wrath are the same thing.....EVEN though ORGE and THILIPSIS are two different words with two different meanings with two different applications.......
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#23
I cited what I cited. I do not worry about what other so called translations in English have to say.
One should worry about what is actually said. The Hebrew word speaks of a judgement on a particular case or a system of justice. Not a judgment if end times
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#24
Again, no. Also not addressing the OP texts or questions therein.

We are in the 7th Church now.
We are in the midst of the 6th seal now (between 13th and 14th verse), about to pass into the 7th shortly.
We are at the end of the 6th Trumpet (redemptive with mercies, not Wrath without mercy) now, about to pass into the 7th shortly, as being between blasts (Rev. 10:7), for in the 7th is the 7 last plagues (Rev. 11:18) as per the type in Joshua 4-5.

The entirety of the 3 woes (5, 6 & 7th trumpets) as well as the 8 last plagues in the 7th trump parallel the type in Exodus and its ten plagues there. See the 5th Trump and study its symbols carefully. You will see something powerful.

Again, this is all easily demonstrated by the chiastic structure of Revelation (Psa. 77:13) itself. It is unbreakable (John 10:35).

Back to the OP please and those texts and questions.
Where do you come up with this info.. As I must disagree..The first seal has not yet even been opened yet.. We may be in the birth pangs (And I think we are) but thats about it.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#25
Seems I may need to start over, I will let atwakee finish first. Then go from there.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#26
I do not believe that for a second:

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

The letter is as eternal as the Word (Psa. 119:151-152).

Back to the OP please.
The written law designed to kill .Thou shall surely die. . . it will clearly not enter the new order. Until then not one Jot or tittle could be removed. It will be tossed into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn another creation.

Opening up the witness is reveling what it said .It does not mean re opening up the letter of the law which condemns. There will be no judgment . as in...If you eat will surely die . The former things will not be rembered or ever to come mind.. Its universal Alzemehers to momnet of spirt depatrs thes bodies of death

No rebuilt or reconditioned.

Isaiah 65:17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Ecclesiastes 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#27
The "judgment" (Revelation 14:7 KJB; κρισεωςG2920 N-GSF, which is a "noun Genative Singular Feminine", not a verb, nor adjective) that "is come" being (ηλθενG2064 V-2AAI-3S, verb, 2 aorist active indicative 3 persons singular) is present tense ongoing until such time as it ceases (Rev. 10:7, &c), but presently the preachment of the "everlasting gospel", the "mystery of God" (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 6:19, &c), that is even now (presently, actively ongoing) going into all the world continues. The "judgment" is not the "wrath" to "come" (future tense).

Again, "krisis" (Judgment) is not "thumou" (wrath).

We must be carefull how we interptret the signified language of revelation.

literalist have done some damage by walking by sight looking to the things seen the temporal. And not walking by faith seeking out the spiritual eternal understanding. . hid from the lost.

Yes the judgment is the execution of the wrath being revealed by the letter of the law from heaven . It will not rise like a Phoenix to condemn a whole creation ever again .

The timing is the last day both executions in the twinkling of the eye. The end of the law and the promised new incorruptible bodies.

Neither male nor female Jew not gentile. Aliens in a new incorruptible world.

Six times in the book of John .The Holy Spirit uses the term "last day" (singular) .Not days (multiple) or years with some sort of disappearance act only to somehow come back again a thousand literal years later .

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#28
Excellent, how do you explain that Daniel 7:10 is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment, since it chronologically in the text takes place after Rome (Daniel 7:8) and before the 2nd coming of Jesus (Daniel 7:14), while the beast on the earth still lives blaspheming (Daniel 7:11a), and while at the same time paralleling Daniel 7:22a which takes place before the 2nd coming?
We should not automatically assume that everything in Daniel is strictly chronological. Therefore all other Scriptures must be brought to bear on Daniel.

Dan 7:7 -- Rome
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7:8 -- the Antichrist
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7: 9-10 -- the Great White Throne Judgment
Dan 7:11 -- the Antichrist
Dan 7:12 -- the residue of the former Gentile empires
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7:13, 14 -- the eternal Kingdom of God established on earth

So if we want to see this in chronological order it would be thus:

Dan 7:7 -- Rome
Dan 7:12 -- the residue of the former Gentile empires
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7:8 -- the Antichrist
Dan 7:11 -- the Antichrist
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7: 9-10 -- the Great White Throne Judgment
Dan 7:13, 14 -- the eternal Kingdom of God established on earth
 
Aug 11, 2019
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#29
Dan 7:7 -- Rome
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7:8 -- the Antichrist
HUGE CHRONOLOGICAL GAP
Dan 7: 9-10 -- the Great White Throne Judgment
There are no chronological gaps in Daniel. Each Kingdom is immediately succeeded by the next in the visions and events, from Daniel 1-12. Daniel 7:9-10 is not the Great White Throne Judgment. It is the judgment that is taking place now, as per Revelation 14:6-7. How do I know? The Chiastic structure (the very bone or foundational structure) of Daniel dictates it to be so:

You may see an entirely demonstrated study of it here - Link

It is unbreakable (John 10:35; Psalms 77:13).

Then, in Daniel 7 itself, it is broken into 4 main portions:

Daniel 7:1 (intro_)

Daniel 7:2-14,15-16 the visions. - Daniel
Daniel 7:17-18 the summary and interpretation of the whole vision in 2 verses - Gabriel
Daniel 7:19-22 the visions restated - Daniel
Daniel 7:23-28a the detailed explanation of the vision - Gabriel

Daniel 7:28b (conclusion)

In the Book of Daniel we see this same Judgment going forward at a very specific time.

Daniel 7:9 - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

We know it is not the Great White Throne Judgment for several reasons, [1] context, [2] timing, [3] individuals present (God and Angels, not saved), [4] books opened (see Dan. 12:1), [5] who is being judged (professed followers, not general wicked who never professed), [6] who is judging (angels and God, not mankind), [7] satan is not present, neither the wicked angels, or wicked in general (as in Rev. 20).

Daniel 7:22b - “ ... the Ancient of days came ...”

This refers to God the Father having moved locations, from the Holy Place (Rev. 4-5) into the Most Holy Place (Rev. 3:7-8).

Daniel 7:26 - “But the judgment shall sit ...”

This refers to a differing judgment, that takes place by the saints, as per Daniel 7:22c, "... judgment was given to the saints of the most high ..." (see also Rev. 20:4).

We can know that a particular Judgment (Daniel 7:9-10), which takes place in Heaven, begins after a certain time, and before the 2nd Coming of Jesus. Notice the context:

[1] The Lion with Eagles wings comes first, [Daniel 7:4], The Kingdom of Babylon, which was from 606 BC – 538/6 BC

[2] The Bear raised up on one side with three ribs, [Daniel 7:5], The Kingdom of Medo-Persia, which was from 538/6 BC – 331 BC.

[3] The Leopard with 4 Heads and 4 Wings, [Daniel 7:6], The Kingdom of Greece and its division, which was from 331 BC – 168 BC.

[4] The Dreadful Terrible Beast with Iron Teeth, Brass Claws, [Daniel 7:7], The Kingdom of Pagan Rome, before its division, which was from 168 BC – AD 476

[5] The Dreadful Terrible Beast with Iron Teeth, Brass Claws, then goes into division, with the Ten Horns, [Daniel 7:7], during the division of the Pagan Roman Empire, which was from AD 476 – AD 508/538.

[6] The Dreadful Terrible Beast with Iron Teeth, Brass Claws, in its division, then another different power arises from the division, an eleventh horn, the Papal Rome, uproots three of the ten, and becomes the 8th. This power was seen in the days of the Apostles, but was withheld by the Caesars in power, until finally it gained the power of the state, taking the place of the Caesars in Rome, 508/538 AD and rules for 1,260 & 1,290 years [Daniel 7:21,25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,13, 13:5; Luke 21:22-24] until AD 1798, where it received a deadly wound from the atheistic France [Revelation 11:7-13], under Napoleon and his general Alexander Berthier. Thus the 1,260 [from AD 538] and 1,290 [from AD 508] ended in AD 1798 [Daniel 11:40[a.] KJB], and the 1,335 [from AD 508], ended in AD 1843/44. The 2,300 [Daniel 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, 10:6, 11:1, 14:6-7], from 457 BC] was coming to its end... AD 1844 approached [Daniel 7:26].

[7] “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit … the judgment was set, and the books were opened.” [Daniel 7:9-10], the Judgment was set in Heaven in AD 1844, as was foretold/typified by the Feasts of Leviticus 23 and 16, the Day of Atonement. These books are searched by the angelic hosts, and whosoever name was not "found" [Daniel 12:1] therein, would not be delievered.

[8] We can see that the Judgment is going on in Heaven, while the 4th Beast and its last [revived, Revelation 13 & 17 form is still on earth, and still blaspheming God, [Daniel 7:11]
 
Aug 11, 2019
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#30
We should not automatically assume that everything in Daniel is strictly chronological.
Nothing is assumed. Everything is verified. We can even consider the absolute parallels in Daniel 7 to Revelation 13:

Point 1. Revelation 13:1-10 is tied, by language and time, to Daniel 7:2-8,17,19-21,23-25.
Daniel, looking in time from his present:

saw (vison/dream) - Daniel 7:1,2,5,6,7,9,11,13,21​

Sea - Daniel 7:2,3​

1,260 - Daniel 7:25​

war - Daniel 7:21​

saints - Daniel 7:18,21,22,25,27​

books - Daniel 7:10​

angels - Daniel 7:10,13,16​

God (Ancient of days; Father) - Daniel 7:9,13,18,22,25,27​

Son of man (Jesus; Lamb) - Daniel 7:13,14​

peoples, nations, languages - Daniel 7:14,23,27​

worship (times and laws of God) - Daniel 7:25​

Lion - Daniel 7:4​

Bear - Daniel 7:5​

Leopard - Daniel 7:6​

a Dreadful terrible beast - Daniel 7:7-8​

seven heads [1 Lion, 1 Bear, 4 Leopard, 1 Beast] - Daniel 7:4-8,11,12,17,19,23​

ten horns - Daniel 7:7-8,20,24​

kingdom (kings have kingdoms, dominions, thrones, and wear crowns) - Daniel 7:4,5,6,7,8,9,12,14,17,18,22,23,24,26,27​

a mouth speaking great things, the great words, mouth that spake very great things, speak great words against the most High - Daniel 7:8,11,20,25​

little horn (with the mouth (and eyes of man, thus head) speaking and warring) - Daniel 7:8,11,20,21,24,25​

killed - Daniel 7:11,26​


John, looking in time from his present (which also covers the past):

saw (vison/dream) - Revelation 13:1,2,3​

Sea - Revelation 13:1​

1,260 - Revelation 13:5​

war - Revelation 13:4,7​

saints - Revelation 13:6,7,10​

book - Revelation 13:8​

angels - Revelation 13:7​

God - Revelation 13:6​

Lamb (Jesus) - Revelation 13:8​

peoples, nations, languages - Revelation 13:3,4,7,8​

worship (times and laws of God) - Revelation 13:4,8​

a beast - Revelation 13:1,2,3,4​

body of a leopard - Revelation 13:2​

feet of a bear - Revelation 13:2​

mouth of a lion - Revelation 13:2​

seven heads - Revelation 13:1​

ten horns - Revelation 13:1​

kingdom (kings have kingdoms, dominions, thrones, and wear crowns) - Revelation 13:1,2,7​

mouth speaking great things and blasphemies - Revelation 13:1,5,6​

one of its heads (with the mouth (being a head, has eyes) speaking and warring) - Revelation 13:3,5,6,7​

killed - Revelation 13:10​
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#31
Excellent, how do you explain that Daniel 7:10 is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment, since it chronologically in the text takes place after Rome (Daniel 7:8) and before the 2nd coming of Jesus (Daniel 7:14), while the beast on the earth still lives blaspheming (Daniel 7:11a), and while at the same time paralleling Daniel 7:22a which takes place before the 2nd coming?
Simple. It is inserted out of chronological order. Very common in the Scriptures. The rereordering is given in V21....

"As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom."
 
Aug 11, 2019
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#32
The written law designed to kill .Thou shall surely die. . . it will clearly not enter the new order.
The Law of God is two sided, Justice and Mercy.

Each of Tulafono E Sefulu (The Ten Commandments) are promises in the New Covenant, in Christ Jesus, ... "You shall not kill.", etc (It's a Promise of God to us that He would bring about if we believe).
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#33
The Law of God is two sided, Justice and Mercy.

Each of Tulafono E Sefulu (The Ten Commandments) are promises in the New Covenant, in Christ Jesus, ... "You shall not kill.", etc (It's a Promise of God to us that He would bring about if we believe).

Yes made up of two parts. The letter that kills and the law of faith that which heals . together making one perfect law.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#34
I’ve always thought that the judgement seat of Christ happens at our death. The GWT judgement in the future.

You could try ignoring the arguments and just presenting your teaching. Then choose the posts you want to address.

Just a thought. I know how hard it is to present something on this forum.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#35
I beleive its represents the judgment seat of Christ who sat in our place and was . . Was found guilty, condemned to go to the cross

Those who believe not stand condemned already in dying carrying out the first judgment . Believers will not come into condemnation. The law of condemning . . . "the letter of the law" it will be cast into the lake of fire. Never to rise and condemn a whole creation ever again on the last day .

It would seem to be common seat of the law. . Not a seat of double jeopardy . No trial twice for the same crime. Our bondsman Christ paid it in full.

Matthew 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him

John 19:12-14 King James Version (KJV) And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!