When does this judgment begin? Discussion Thread.

[TulafonoESefulu]

Pro_28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second Advent?

Psa_9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

1Pe_4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

Heb_10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second advent?

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

When does this judgment take place? At the beginning or ending of the 1,000 years?

Psa_149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Pro_28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second Advent?

The scripture above is not speaking about a specific judgment. In fact, the majority of translations have it as follows. The meaning can be of what is being said, can be understood from the previous verses in the same chapter.

New International Version
Evildoers do not understand what is right, but those who seek the LORD understand it fully.

New Living Translation
Evil people don’t understand justice, but those who follow the LORD understand completely.

English Standard Version
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD understand it completely.

Berean Study Bible
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD comprehend fully.

New American Standard Bible
Evil men do not understand justice, But those who seek the LORD understand all things.

King James Bible
Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Christian Standard Bible
The evil do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD understand everything.

Contemporary English Version
Criminals don't know what justice means, but all who respect the LORD understand it completely.

Good News Translation
Evil people do not know what justice is, but those who worship the LORD understand it well.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD understand everything.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The scripture above is referring to the great white throne judgment, which is also listed in Revelation 20:11-15:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books.

Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The judgment mentioned above is referring to God's wrath in its entirety, i.e. what will have already taken place up to that point and what is yet still to come. The reference to judgment then, is God's wrath being poured out on the earth.

There only three actual judgments:

* The sheep and the goat judgment: Takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age of all those who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.

* The Bema Seat judgment: The dead who are resurrected with the living being caught up, will stand before Christ and will be judged, not for sin, but to receive reward or loss of reward for things done good or worthless in the body.

* The great white throne judgment: Will take place at the end of the millennial kingdom, where all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history will be resurrected and their spirits released from Hades and will stand before God and will be judged for every sin, every evil thought and every idle word. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[garee]

The judgement begins in so much that they believe not God. (no faith) The execution will be on the last day .The letter of the law as the source of death will be tossed into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn forever more/

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not "is condemned already", because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God .John 3:18

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

The scripture above is not speaking about a specific judgment. In fact, the majority of translations have it as follows.

I cited what I cited. I do not worry about what other so called translations in English have to say.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

The scripture above is referring to the great white throne judgment, which is also listed in Revelation 20:11-15:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books.

Excellent, how do you explain that Daniel 7:10 is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment, since it chronologically in the text takes place after Rome (Daniel 7:8) and before the 2nd coming of Jesus (Daniel 7:14), while the beast on the earth still lives blaspheming (Daniel 7:11a), and while at the same time paralleling Daniel 7:22a which takes place before the 2nd coming?

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

The judgment mentioned above is referring to God's wrath in its entirety, i.e. what will have already taken place up to that point and what is yet still to come.

Excellent, how do you explain that Revelation 14:6-7 takes place in yet future, as you say, "what is yet still to come", when it plainly states "is come", being present tense while "the everlasting gospel" is being proclaimed to the whole world, and not when the 7 last plagues are poured out when the gospel itself ceased being proclaimed, since none can be saved once that happnes (Revelation 10:7, 15:8, 22:11, etc)?

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

The reference to judgment then, is God's wrath being poured out on the earth.

Revelation 14:6-7 does not mention "wrath" at all, and the word is different, being "judgment", not "wrath" in English or koine Greek. Revelation 14:9-11 does mention "wrath" being yet future ("shall drink", not 'is now drinking'), not present tense as "is come" for the "judgment" "hour" spoken of while "the everlasting gospel" still goes forward.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When does this judgment begin? Before or after Jesus returns in the second Advent?

You have a variety of Scriptures regarding judgment but they must be properly categorized and arranged chronologically. In general terms, there are four judgments which follow each other:

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven -- for the works of the saints.

2. The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation -- for the unbelieving and ungodly.

3. The Sheep and Goat Judgment -- just before the Millennium and for the nations.

4. The Great White Throne Judgment -- for all the unsaved.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I cited what I cited. I do not worry about what other so called translations in English have to say.

It's not about translations. The judgments that I listed are what is going to take place

 

[Ahwatukee]

Excellent, how do you explain that Revelation 14:6-7 takes place in yet future, as you say, "what is yet still to come", when it plainly states "is come", being present tense while "the everlasting gospel" is being proclaimed to the whole world, and not when the 7 last plagues are poured out when the gospel itself ceased being proclaimed, since none can be saved once that happnes (Revelation 10:7, 15:8, 22:11, etc)?

Simple, because the words "has come" found in Rev.6:17 and 11:18 is in the aorist indicative active, which is referring to the entire wrath of God and not just what happens following the announcement. You need to look at the actual Greek and not the translated English.

You are in error regarding no one being able to be saved during the tribulation period. The great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17 are all saved during that time period. Many of them will die because of the beast, but they will be saved because they will have kept their testimony of Christ and the word of God and will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.

You are also in error about the gospel ceasing to be preached, as demonstrated below:

"Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. - Rev.14:6

If no one could be saved during the time of God's wrath, then it would be in vain for the angel to preach the eternal gospel to every nation, tribe, language and people.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 14:6-7 does not mention "wrath" at all, and the word is different, being "judgment", not "wrath" in English or koine Greek. Revelation 14:9-11 does mention "wrath" being yet future ("shall drink", not 'is now drinking'), not present tense as "is come" for the "judgment" "hour" spoken of while "the everlasting gospel" still goes forward.

The following is how it is going to take place:

* Gathering of the church

* Apostasy, man of lawlessness is revealed

* Wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments throughout the entire seven years

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age

* Millennial kingdom

Prior to Rev.17:9-11 in Rev.13:5-7, the beast is given power to make war and to conquer the tribulation saints during that last 42 months, I.e. the last 3 1/2 years

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 14:6-7 does not mention "wrath" at all, and the word is different, being "judgment", not "wrath" in English or koine Greek. Revelation 14:9-11 does mention "wrath" being yet future ("shall drink", not 'is now drinking'), not present tense as "is come" for the "judgment" "hour" spoken of while "the everlasting gospel" still goes forward.

From chapter 6 thru 18 God's wrath will take place in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses will bring. Jesus will return only after the seventh bowl has been poured out, which is revealed at the end of chapter 16. Chapters 17 & 18 are informational describing the characteristics of the beast, the woman (that city that sits on seven hills) who rides the beast which is Babylon and her destruction. Chapter 19:1-10 is celebratory of Babylon's destruction and Chapter 19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

Simple, because the words "has come" found in Rev.6:17 and 11:18 is in the aorist indicative active, which is referring to the entire wrath of God ...

"aorist indicative active" simply means present tense, ongoing (active) until such a time as it is no longer ongoing (aorist indicative) as dictated by the context, not simply because you found another place where it uses the same tense. Its line upon line, not tense upon tense.

Revelation 6:17 is not referring to Revelation 14:6-7.
Revelation 11:18 is not referring to Revelation 14:6-7.

Not because I say so, but because the chiastic structure (Psa. 77:13) of Revelation dictates it to be so.

Both of those texts come "after" the gospel ceases (Revelation 10:7, &c), texts already cited to you. Revelation 11:18 is not a single moment in time, but several events (anger of the nations (Rev. 17), then wrath (7 last plagues), millennium (Rev. 20), destruction of the wicked unto ashes) in a single verse (as Daniel 7:22), as in other places in Revelation. The "judgment" referred to in Revelation 11:18 is not the same as found in Revelation 14:6-7. The timings are differing, in relation to the gospel going and after the gospel ceases, thus my original questions in the OP.

Revelation 11:19 parallels, Revelation 16:18, not Revlation 14:6-7.

The "judgment" referred to in Revelation 11:18 is that which is found in Revelation 20:4; 1 Corinthians 6:2, not that which is in Revelation 14:6-7. Revelation 14:6-7 deals with 'living' persons able to accept or reject 'the everlasting gospel', and not to the 'dead' which cannot, being outside of Christ Jesus.

The "judgment" (Revelation 14:7 KJB; κρισεωςG2920 N-GSF, which is a "noun Genative Singular Feminine", not a verb, nor adjective) that "is come" being (ηλθενG2064 V-2AAI-3S, verb, 2 aorist active indicative 3 persons singular) is present tense ongoing until such time as it ceases (Rev. 10:7, &c), but presently the preachment of the "everlasting gospel", the "mystery of God" (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 6:19, &c), that is even now (presently, actively ongoing) going into all the world continues. The "judgment" is not the "wrath" to "come" (future tense).

Again, "krisis" (Judgment) is not "thumou" (wrath).

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

It's not about translations.

Yet, instead of addressing the text, multiple 'translations' were used to simply attempt a bypass at what was cited. That is not addressing what was cited. If that is how we address differences, then I can cite as many translations also, whenever I decide, but that wouldn't be Bible study, it would simply be personal preference.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

You have a variety of Scriptures regarding judgment but they must be properly categorized and arranged chronologically. ...

I cited the texts, and asked the questions. I am not interested in apriori. I am interested in the texts cited and the questions asked. If you may address those specifically. Thank you.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

The following is how it is going to take place:

No. That was easy. You provided no scripture, and so I need provide none in response (though I can). This thread is not about your apriori, but the texts cited and the questions asked.

The order and intent (meaning) as you give is in error, but that is not for this thread. See OP.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

42 months

Already long gone and history. Yet again, that is not the subject of the OP. Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5, Luke 21:24 all being the same timeframe, and portion of the greater (Dan. 8:13-14,26; Rev. 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-7) is all history, it (42 months) is not one bit future in time (though certain events are even now repeating as per Ecc. 1:9, 3:15, etc).

Futurism (as well as preterism, and amillennialism and mysticism) belongs to that certain militant order and prelature, with their 'exercises', as located in the Italian Peninsula. If we may stay on the OP please. The texts and the questions. Thank you.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

From chapter 6 thru 18 God's wrath will take place in the form of the seals, trumpets

Again, no. Also not addressing the OP texts or questions therein.

We are in the 7th Church now.
We are in the midst of the 6th seal now (between 13th and 14th verse), about to pass into the 7th shortly.
We are at the end of the 6th Trumpet (redemptive with mercies, not Wrath without mercy) now, about to pass into the 7th shortly, as being between blasts (Rev. 10:7), for in the 7th is the 7 last plagues (Rev. 11:18) as per the type in Joshua 4-5.

The entirety of the 3 woes (5, 6 & 7th trumpets) as well as the 8 last plagues in the 7th trump parallel the type in Exodus and its ten plagues there. See the 5th Trump and study its symbols carefully. You will see something powerful.

Again, this is all easily demonstrated by the chiastic structure of Revelation (Psa. 77:13) itself. It is unbreakable (John 10:35).

Back to the OP please and those texts and questions.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

From chapter 6 thru 18 ... at the end of chapter 16. Chapters 17 & 18 are informational describing the characteristics of the beast, the woman (that city that sits on seven hills) who rides the beast which is Babylon and her destruction. Chapter 19:1-10 is celebratory of Babylon's destruction and Chapter 19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Why not study the structure and the language first, see Link (detailed, none may err who love the truth), and you may also see Rev. 12 line upon line here if you desire, as well as the Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 compared by language also - here.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

the 8 last plagues

Typo, 7.