When God spoke to Israel was it for gentiles, also?

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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#21
Jul 3, 2015
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#21
"The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh— Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the wilderness in distant places. For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.” Jeremiah 9:25-26

The whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.

That must mean nothing to you :(
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#22
Jun 30, 2015
25,595
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#22
Blik said:
I don't think that there can be an understanding of God and His kingdom when we decide that what is in the OT is done away with by the new covenant. God is eternal, there simply is not an old God and a God that wiped out all to give something new. It is a better covenant because it is not dependent on physical rituals to be understood and acted on, but our eternal God does not change His principles and those principles are told to us in the Torah.

The sacrificial system is obsolete, gone, done with. But Christ is our sacrificial lamb and to understand Christ we can go to what we are told the sacrificial system did. Christ does all of this, only better. Christ is our high priest, and to learn what that means to us we can go to the duties of the high priest before Christ for that is what Christ does, only better.

The idea that we are so much superior to any Jew, and we know God and they don't is not the truth. Paul warned us against having that idea.
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The part in bold is simply incorrect. We didn't decide; God told us so in the Bible. You've read it yourself, but you don't accept it.

Nobody is claiming that God changed. Rather, as I have demonstrated previously, God has not changed. However, the manner in which He interacts with humans has changed.

I don't know who is claiming superiority to Jews; I haven't seen that. However, people who claim to be Jews but have not accepted Jesus as Messiah are just as lost as Moslems, Buddhists, and atheists. We as individuals are not superior to them, but in Christ, our position is vastly superior.

I'm glad that you recognize that the sacrificial system is done. I hope that soon, you will realize that the same applies for the entire old covenant. That doesn't mean we can't learn from it, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to it. However, it does mean that our interaction with God is not contingent upon our obedience to it.

Respectfully, you're going in circles. You misconstrue someone's statement, make an erroneous generalization, and claim that Christians believe something wacky. You get corrected, and then repeat the process in the same or a new thread. Maybe you should just stop interpreting the words of others and instead, quote them directly.
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
#23
#23
It sure was.

Every promise in the book is mine, every chapter, every verse, every line.

ALL SCRIPTURE is good for reproof correction etc. not SOME.

Even if Noah building an ark dont got a DIRECT application to ME, its still BENEFICIAL and good. The message is: Get ready, be ready. Unless you're pre-trib. You need not apply. HAH!
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#25
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#25
Magenta said:
"The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will punish all who are circumcised only in the flesh— Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the wilderness in distant places. For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.” Jeremiah 9:25-26

The whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.

That must mean nothing to you :(
Click to expand...
That is not the truth at all. Many of the house of Israel use the fleshly circumcision to symbolize the spiritual circumcision that they have. If it was so, we are not given given the right to sit in judgement of them, that is the place of the Lord.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#26
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#26
Dino246 said:
The part in bold is simply incorrect. We didn't decide; God told us so in the Bible. You've read it yourself, but you don't accept it.

Nobody is claiming that God changed. Rather, as I have demonstrated previously, God has not changed. However, the manner in which He interacts with humans has changed.

I don't know who is claiming superiority to Jews; I haven't seen that. However, people who claim to be Jews but have not accepted Jesus as Messiah are just as lost as Moslems, Buddhists, and atheists. We as individuals are not superior to them, but in Christ, our position is vastly superior.

I'm glad that you recognize that the sacrificial system is done. I hope that soon, you will realize that the same applies for the entire old covenant. That doesn't mean we can't learn from it, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to it. However, it does mean that our interaction with God is not contingent upon our obedience to it.

Respectfully, you're going in circles. You misconstrue someone's statement, make an erroneous generalization, and claim that Christians believe something wacky. You get corrected, and then repeat the process in the same or a new thread. Maybe you should just stop interpreting the words of others and instead, quote them directly.
Click to expand...
It seems to me that even posters in this posting are putting down the Jews.
I think you have a glorified idea of the main stream ideas of the church. I spent years knowing almost nothing about the OT and didn't understand it when I tried to study it. I don't think I was that unusual. I got help from a man who was a Christian and had studied the OT, he explained and kept strictly to scripture. I studied with a basic understanding that there is spiritual truth in every word of scripture, it is all from God. I know the difference this understanding gives of our world, the world that God created. There is nothing in the NT that can't be understood better by going to the roots of the principle found in the OT. The church is up in arms about even saying "roots" but that is what the OT is.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#27
Jun 30, 2015
25,595
13,857
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#27
Blik said:
It seems to me that even posters in this posting are putting down the Jews.
I think you have a glorified idea of the main stream ideas of the church. I spent years knowing almost nothing about the OT and didn't understand it when I tried to study it. I don't think I was that unusual. I got help from a man who was a Christian and had studied the OT, he explained and kept strictly to scripture. I studied with a basic understanding that there is spiritual truth in every word of scripture, it is all from God. I know the difference this understanding gives of our world, the world that God created. There is nothing in the NT that can't be understood better by going to the roots of the principle found in the OT. The church is up in arms about even saying "roots" but that is what the OT is.
Click to expand...
Who is putting down the Jews? Quote them please. Let's put an end to this generalization. Allow the words of others to stand for themselves.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#28
Jul 3, 2015
61,106
30,238
113
#28
Blik said:
That is not the truth at all. Many of the house of Israel use the fleshly circumcision to symbolize the spiritual circumcision that they have. If it was so, we are not given given the right to sit in judgement of them, that is the place of the Lord.
Click to expand...
How peculiar! You say God does not change and we should accept the old testament/covenant as applicable for today but then turn around and outright reject what Scripture actually explicitly says, declaring it is not true at all, when those were God's very words. You really ought to make up your mind... your contradictions do not help your case at all.
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#29
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#29
Magenta said:
How peculiar! You say God does not change and we should accept the old testament/covenant as applicable for today but then turn around and outright reject what Scripture actually explicitly says, declaring it is not true at all, when those were God's very words. You really ought to make up your mind... your contradictions do not help your case at all.
Click to expand...
New Covenant​

When the disciples received the Holy Ghost in Acts 2, what was the reference to Joel about? And what about the part in the last verse (2:21) “that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved?”
Acts 2:16-21: “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Has there been any era where that has happened? Joel chapter 1 speaks about the devastation of the earth and the Day of the Lord (Future events).

Then Joel 2 ends with: 31: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” 32: “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”

Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.

Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Do you see the direct link between Jeremiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?

Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”

First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”

Next, it speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28, 29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, ask yourself: when is it?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#30
Jul 3, 2015
61,106
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#30
Deade said:
What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, ask yourself: when is it?











New Covenant​

When the disciples received the Holy Ghost in Acts 2, what was the reference to Joel about? And what about the part in the last verse (2:21) “that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved?”
Acts 2:16-21: “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Has there been any era where that has happened? Joel chapter 1 speaks about the devastation of the earth and the Day of the Lord (Future events).

Then Joel 2 ends with: 31: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” 32: “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”

Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.

Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Do you see the direct link between Jeremiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?

Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”

First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”

Next, it speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28, 29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet. The way I read that is everyone that calls on the Lord will have salvation. Surely, that is not today. So, ask yourself: when is it?
Click to expand...
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. 2 Cor 6:2
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
#31
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
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#31
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God just told us, what He considers a real Jew.

In other words, those who receive the Holy Spirit and are a regenerate man in Jesus:
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Thus "the circumcision" - you cut the flesh off and walk in the Spirit now.
The physical customary laws were there as a token of God's promise.
Stop torturing yourself... Jesus is enough. He is the Son that the Father loves.
 
B

billabong

Member
#32
Jun 5, 2018
93
59
18
#32
Melach said:
why do we even print o.t in our bibles?

i hate that idea that only some parts of the bible apply to us and rest is just unapplicable to us
Click to expand...
The apostle Paul wrote, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15). The idea of "rightly dividing" is handling accurately. In "handling accurately the word of truth," we must recognize and understand the two basic divisions of the Bible—the Old and New Testaments.

The old covenant was written for our learning. In Romans 15:4 Paul wrote, "For whatsoever things were written a foretime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

The old covenant was written for an example and for our admonition. In 1 Corinthians 10:11 Paul wrote,
"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Admonish," It is used, (a) of instruction, (b) of warning.”

The Old Testament went out of effect at the death of Jesus. Mark 14: 58“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands.’”
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#33
Mar 28, 2019
2,057
1,526
113
#33
billabong said:
The apostle Paul wrote, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15). The idea of "rightly dividing" is handling accurately. In "handling accurately the word of truth," we must recognize and understand the two basic divisions of the Bible—the Old and New Testaments.

The old covenant was written for our learning. In Romans 15:4 Paul wrote, "For whatsoever things were written a foretime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

The old covenant was written for an example and for our admonition. In 1 Corinthians 10:11 Paul wrote,
"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Admonish," It is used, (a) of instruction, (b) of warning.”

The Old Testament went out of effect at the death of Jesus. Mark 14: 58“We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this man-made temple, and in three days I will build another that is made without hands.’”
Click to expand...
i already believe that. thats what i wanted to say what you said
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#34
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
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78
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#34
Magenta said:
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. 2 Cor 6:2
Click to expand...
Yes, so says some translations. And other say this:
"For he says, “At an acceptable time I have listened to you,
and on a day of salvation I have helped you.”"
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#35
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#35
Blik said:
It seems to me that even posters in this posting are putting down the Jews.
I think you have a glorified idea of the main stream ideas of the church. I spent years knowing almost nothing about the OT and didn't understand it when I tried to study it. I don't think I was that unusual. I got help from a man who was a Christian and had studied the OT, he explained and kept strictly to scripture. I studied with a basic understanding that there is spiritual truth in every word of scripture, it is all from God. I know the difference this understanding gives of our world, the world that God created. There is nothing in the NT that can't be understood better by going to the roots of the principle found in the OT. The church is up in arms about even saying "roots" but that is what the OT is.
Click to expand...
I don't think you can discuss this rationally, but I will try. An example of the attitude toward anything Jewish was expressed by Magenta when she stated that the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#36
Jul 3, 2015
61,106
30,238
113
#36
Blik said:
I don't think you can discuss this rationally, but I will try. An example of the attitude toward anything Jewish was expressed by Magenta when she stated that the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.
Click to expand...
Yes, I was directly quoting what GOD said in His holy eternal written Word :) Something you say we should accept all of as being applicable for now, yet you outright rejected it and even said it was not true at all! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#37
Jun 30, 2015
25,595
13,857
113
#37
Blik said:
I don't think you can discuss this rationally, but I will try. An example of the attitude toward anything Jewish was expressed by Magenta when she stated that the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel is uncircumcised in heart.
Click to expand...
I don't know that this was directed to me, and Magenta already responded to your post, but didn't provide the reference. The quote is from Jeremiah 9:26.
 
Whispered

Whispered

Well-known member
#38
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
#38
Melach said:
why do we even print o.t in our bibles?

i hate that idea that only some parts of the bible apply to us and rest is just unapplicable to us
Click to expand...
The Old is the foundation of the New. The Old prophesied what became in the New. We cannot have one without the other. No part of it is obsolete for all is of God.
 
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