When to Stop Discussing a Heresey with Someone?

[Enow]

I like that Enow does post longer passage of the Bible to defend his positions. Unfortunately, I cannot read them since they are in KJV. Perhaps posting in a modern version would make a real difference to what people say and feel about you? Oh right, you are KJV Only, and that is a big issue for me. But, since I already replied about that in another thread, I'm not addressing it again. At least for a month or two.

I find it hard to believe.

If you are referring to reading a Bible in the native language you are familiar with, then you can find the KJV in that language as you would any other modern Bible version.

I am reading the KJV and others that do not prefer reading the KJV, can read the KJV just fine. There is no problem in reading scriptures just because they are in the KJV.

Maybe you meant something else but as it is, that is just spouting nonsense in bigotry about the KJV.

But I thank you for sharing about how you would post about an issue.

I find it easier said than done for which I confess My need of Him to help me withdraw when He wants me to.

 

[Enow]

I've done more discussing of tongues on this forum than almost any other topic....

My problem is with you calling those folks heretics. This is the dictionary definition of heresy....



people who believe in tongues do not fit that description. At the very worst, they are wrong about a non-salvation issue. At best, they are correct in their interpretation of spiritual gifts, and you are wrong.

They are still believers and followers of Jesus, and they are teaching others to follow him.... they are NOT heretics. You need to come out of your tunnel vision view of what our task as believers is...

To be called a heretic is not saying they are not saved nor is it saying they are not a christian.

The rejecting of someone that is a heretic is one whom has been subverted to false teachings.

Paul warned about the falling away from the faith that will happen to believers in 1 Timothy 4:1-2.

Paul testified in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter that in the latter days it will happen more so in droves as the iniquity of that falling away from the faith was happening even in his day where "he who let will let until he be taken out of the way" "which is after the workings of Satan" thus tying in with those who preach receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation after a sign of tongues and other sensational signs in the flesh. God will permit them that are under that new age mentality to open themselves up to receiving other spirits that are believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation and even again and again after other signs in the flesh to suffer that strong delusion for believing that lie.

Then Paul reminded believers of the tradition taught of us that reproves such iniquity that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15.

Paul goes unto the next chapter talking about these evil and wicked men that we be delivered from them for they have not faith no are walking after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly... as those in the movements of the "Spirit" are. Paul says that we are to withdraw from them, but not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15.

So that is Proof that Paul is calling those saved believers that have fallen away from the faith and not walking after the traditions taught of us as brothers still even though they are by all their actions & false teachings; heretics.

Explain how I am applying this reference wrong if you still not not believe me.

Titus 3:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;[SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

See where heretick follows after? Issues within christianity.

I do not care what the modern dictionary says; the scripture has the final word, right, of what a hersey is, let alone a heretick?

So you misunderstood me because I believe they are believers in Jesus Christ and they are His, but in regards to any work of iniquity that denies Him, they need His help to see their error and to repent to be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes because any iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them. Even if some believers err from the truth and no longer believe in Him, He still abides in them as 2 timothy 2:12-13 testify as to why those left behind, they are still His as they will be made to hear His voice and no longer follow the stranger's voice which I believe is tongues without interpretation gained by apostasy along with other signs of confusions in those wild movements of the "Spirit" which was not & is not the Holy Spirit.

You seem to defend tongue speakers as not being one yourself, and so I ask you to go before that throne of grace after reading all those scriptural references because tongue speakers that claim they got that kind of tongue which never comes with interpretation are the ones dividing the body of Christ by preaching to have that extra phenomenon by a sign of tongues which scripture plainly says tongues were never to serve as a sign to already saved believers for. Red flag or not?

So all tongue speakers that profess Him are my brothers and sisters, but how they got that tongue is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ and the traditions taught of us which we are to defend & hold fast to.

Many tongue speakers do not believe those wild events in those movements of the "Spirit" as being of the Lord where they fall down, have uncontrollable laughter, and other signs of confusion for showism, but tongue speakers got their tongue by the same rudiment that those in wild encounters have received by receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, again and again and again. It just does not stop there with receiving the Holy Spirit just to get tongues without interpretation.

Only shrume as a tongue speaker speaks against those who attached that tongue by receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, but he cannot defend his tongue when they that err got that tongue by apostasy. Albeit, shrume is found wanting yet still because he has not really explained how he as well as when he got that kind of tongue without interpretation. If he has, I have missed it.

And some tongue speakers that speaks against those that preach for those wild encounters who attached receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation in the same way they get tongues, but tongue speakers cannot defend their tongues when those by err got those wild encounters by.

No good tree will produce an evil fruit and no evil tree can produce a good fruit. Jesus said that. By their fruit you will know them as they gather grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. That is what tongues without interpretation gained by this apostasy does. Catholic Charismatic churches speaks in tongues and yet for all that time, they have not been reproved by any movement of the Spirit to depart from the works of Catholicism? Are you seeing another red flag here now by His grace & by His help?

So they are wrong about tongues to be used privately, taking verses out of context in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter by ignoring how to read those verses in the context of that chapter as set by precedent in 1 Corinthians 12th chapter that tongues will never be used by itself for the benefit of the believer when that same tongue in 1 Corinthians 14:2 is the same tongue needing interpretation for that tongue to even be fruitful to really edify him as the tongue speaker.

Paul was exhorting believers that if they are zealous for spiritual gift to seek the gift of prophesy and began to explain why by comparing the gift of tongues against the gift of prophesy, but tongue speakers has managed to take verses out of context to make tongues the way cooler gift to seek and misapplied his words as if they can benefit from it individually without the body of Christ which is again ignoring the precedent set in 12th chapter that all these gifts are to profit the body withal 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 so that the eye cannot say to other members of the body that they have no need of you.

Not to mention that tongue speakers can no longer share in the testimony of 1 Corinthians 12:13 that now only non-tongue speakers can say because tongue speakers are testifying to another drink of the One Spirit apart from the baptism we all have been baptized by.

Like it or not, tongue speakers are preaching another calling and another gospel which is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ, and the traditions taught of us, and they need His help to see their error to love Jesus Christ more than that tongue to shun it and while others need to also shun chasing after seducing spirits to receive for a sign too to return to tehri first love, and wait for the Bridegroom as filled by the Spirit since their salvation or risk being cast into the great tribulation as the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2nd chapter ( also saved believers ) were warned to depart from or else for uttering the depths of Satan for which they speak.

They are still His, but in according to His words, they are in trouble and need His help to see their error to depart from this tongue for private use as gained by apostasy before the Bridegroom comes or else after the pre trib rapture event when they are left behind, they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity.

 

[Speak2Me]

Titus 3:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [SUP]10[/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I really need the Lord's help to withdraw from such a discussion, even though it does prompts me to reply to give those they would entice pause to confirm with Him at that throne of grace from following after them with no discernment.

What's underlined above is for 1on1 confrontation when you're trying to get them to see the light. That wouldn't apply in the BDF, because there's many people reading these posts. Plus, we have these verses:
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
False doctrine has to be continuously exposed because it's continuously scattered here in the BDF.

 

[Enow]

Titus 3:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [SUP]10[/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

What's underlined above is for 1on1 confrontation when you're trying to get them to see the light. That wouldn't apply in the BDF, because there's many people reading these posts. Plus, we have these verses:
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
False doctrine has to be continuously exposed because it's continuously scattered here in the BDF.

Well, in one sense, since they are spouting errors in public, it calls for public correction. It is true that your reference is better but I believe Titus 3:10 should be understood as following the example Jesus said when doing one on one.

Matthew 18:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?[SUP] 13 [/SUP]And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.[SUP] 17 [/SUP]And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

So I do apply Titus 3:10 as after having gone through what Jesus had taught for any one to be rejected as a heretic from church which the church is to do by excommunication.

This forum does some banning to keep those from promoting Catholic heresy and that is good, but I do wonder how it can lead them to repentance and be welcomed back in if they cannot contact the forum to say that they have repented, but in any case, as far as the church is concern, the churches are to let the "former" and repenting brother or sister back in, and announce before all that he or she has repented so they can resume having fellowship with that repenting believer in church as well as outside the church.

But I agree that your reference of Ephesians 5:11 is clearer in what we are to do in public forums. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Dino246]

To be called a heretic is not saying they are not saved nor is it saying they are not a christian.

The rejecting of someone that is a heretic is one whom has been subverted to false teachings.
...
I do not care what the modern dictionary says; the scripture has the final word, right, of what a hersey is, let alone a heretick?

By your reasoning, I call you a heretic. Do you still think it isn't excessive?

 

[hornetguy]

Titus 3:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [SUP]10[/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.



Well, in one sense, since they are spouting errors in public, it calls for public correction. It is true that your reference is better but I believe Titus 3:10 should be understood as following the example Jesus said when doing one on one.

Matthew 18:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?[SUP] 13 [/SUP]And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.[SUP] 17 [/SUP]And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

So I do apply Titus 3:10 as after having gone through what Jesus had taught for any one to be rejected as a heretic from church which the church is to do by excommunication.

This forum does some banning to keep those from promoting Catholic heresy and that is good, but I do wonder how it can lead them to repentance and be welcomed back in if they cannot contact the forum to say that they have repented, but in any case, as far as the church is concern, the churches are to let the "former" and repenting brother or sister back in, and announce before all that he or she has repented so they can resume having fellowship with that repenting believer in church as well as outside the church.

But I agree that your reference of Ephesians 5:11 is clearer in what we are to do in public forums. Thanks for sharing.

That passage is talking about believers that were trying to turn back to following the Law, and who were dividing the church because of their foolish arguments over inconsequential things..... pretty much what you have devoted your time here on CC to doing.

Here it is in understandable current English.... the NASB... it says nothing about heresy, only calling those that want to divide the church as "factious".... meaning

fac·tious
ˈfakSHəs/
adjective
adjective: factious

• relating or inclined to a state of faction.
  "a factious country"
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]divided, split, schismatic, discordant, conflicting, argumentative, disagreeing, disputatious, quarreling, quarrelsome, clashing, warring, at loggerheads, at odds, rebellious, mutinous "factious parties have weakened the movement"
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]

• [SUP]8 [/SUP]This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, [SUP]11 [/SUP]knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
  So, reading this scripture, and understanding it, shows that YOU are the factious one here. Or, to use the incorrect word you use....you are the "heretick"...

 

[Enow]

That passage is talking about believers that were trying to turn back to following the Law, and who were dividing the church because of their foolish arguments over inconsequential things..... pretty much what you have devoted your time here on CC to doing.

Here it is in understandable current English.... the NASB... it says nothing about heresy, only calling those that want to divide the church as "factious".... meaning

• 
  
  So, reading this scripture, and understanding it, shows that YOU are the factious one here. Or, to use the incorrect word you use....you are the "heretick"...

That reference is just an example of heresy. It is not the only example of heresy.

Galatians 5:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,[SUP] 20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,[SUP] 21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And you are purposefully ignoring how they divide themselves from believers in Jesus Christ that share the testimony that we all have been baptized into one body by the One Spirit that we all have been made to drink of the One Spirit just by how they are preaching that they can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation by a sign of tongues.

It is obvious that you are not taking this matter to Jesus in prayer but failing to see tongue speakers through out this forum as they exalt themselves over other believers by that "other baptism" and by that tongue for which they need no other member of the body of believers for as they are claiming benefits by it in so many different ways and yet when put to the task, they cannot tell you what that tongue is doing to benefit them individually at that moment.

Do you believe you can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation? Or that you can receive the Holy Spirit again?

Can you claim that there is no scripture that refutes the claim that tongues will serve as a sign to saved believers?

If no to all those 3 questions, then start paying attention to what these tongue speakers are promoting; it is apostasy. That is why that tongue never comes with interpretation because it is not of Him and neither by how they gained it.

 

[Dino246]

That reference is just an example of heresy. It is not the only example of heresy.

So you're one example of a heretic, is that your point? Remember, this is by your reasoning, not mine.

 

[Enow]

By your reasoning, I call you a heretic. Do you still think it isn't excessive?

Well Catholics call Protestants heretics and vice versa so yeah I can accept that since we are not speaking the same hing nor sharing the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The difference here is I am point to the gospel that all believers, non-tongue speakers and tongue speakers have been called to in coming to and believing in Jesus Christ.

You are preaching not the gospel, but pointing to another calling for believers to heed in receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation in order to get that tongue without interpretation.

So yeah.. it would be hard for neither of us to not call each other as a heretic.

That does not mean that you are not saved or not a christian. I am saying you had been saved and filled since whereas you are now preaching extra as if I am not complete in Christ that I need to be filled with the Spirit just to speak in tongues.

That is you first telling me that we are not saying teh same thing nor having the same judgement when you say stuff like that.

So I am telling you... you are wrong and what you preach cannot be of Him when that same rudiment is being used by those in slain in the "Spirit" phenomenon and "holy laughter movement" by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after those signs too.

Just explaining why we differ because you leave me no choice but ti defend the faith in Jesus Christ by opposing that kind of tongue.

I know tongue speakers do not use tongues with interpretation when they insist they also use it with interpretation. No way would God give the real gift of tongues that was gained by apostasy to endorse that other calling. No way.

That means people can be faking the tongues and faking interpreting the tongues; and that tongue can even be the actual supernatural that as found in the world that comes with no interpretation because it is just vain & profane babbling; and not just people faking tongues so they can fit in.

That also includes those who claim they can speak in tongues and interpret their own tongues; by His words, I say that person knows the extra language is why he or she can interpret it.

Joyce Meyers says in how she interprets tongues is she gets a "feel" for what is being said and interprets it that way. Yeah.. right.. like people can guess at what God is saying as if that is how we are to interpret tongues. So many believers out there are in error even though they believe they are doing it honestly, but they are really faking interpreting tongues.

Anyway, I accept that we do not speak the same thing nor share the same judgment because I say you are departing from the calling of the gospel to give another calling... a gospel of tongues. It is to that I declare heresy, but you are still my brother in Christ and I share my concern because at the pre trib rapture event is when the Lord will judge His House first so that any one in iniquity, that includes me, will be denied by Him by that iniquity to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor.

I need Him to be my Good Shepherd as I hope in Him to help me lay aside every weight & sin daily to follow Him, and I do declare that I wish He would deliver me today from this life which I hate so that He has brought me Home to be one of His forever friends that can never die and never sin against God nor be at risk of being separated from Him ever again.

I do so hope in His mercy to have me ready to go as found abiding in Him as His disciple, as only I can pray that you do too.

 

[presidente]

Enow,

When you are the one promoting a false doctrine that condemns other believers and contradicts scripture, you should definitely stop right away.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Psalm 1 New International Version (NIV)

Psalm 1

[SUP]1 [/SUP]Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

 

[Dino246]

Well Catholics call Protestants heretics and vice versa so yeah I can accept that since we are not speaking the same hing nor sharing the same judgment.

...
The difference here is I am point to the gospel that all believers, non-tongue speakers and tongue speakers have been called to in coming to and believing in Jesus Christ.

You are preaching not the gospel, but pointing to another calling for believers to heed in receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation in order to get that tongue without interpretation.

So yeah.. it would be hard for neither of us to not call each other as a heretic.

That does not mean that you are not saved or not a christian. I am saying you had been saved and filled since whereas you are now preaching extra as if I am not complete in Christ that I need to be filled with the Spirit just to speak in tongues.

That is you first telling me that we are not saying teh same thing nor having the same judgement when you say stuff like that.

So I am telling you... you are wrong and what you preach cannot be of Him when that same rudiment is being used by those in slain in the "Spirit" phenomenon and "holy laughter movement" by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after those signs too.

...

Anyway, I accept that we do not speak the same thing nor share the same judgment because I say you are departing from the calling of the gospel to give another calling... a gospel of tongues. It is to that I declare heresy, but you are still my brother in Christ and I share my concern because at the pre trib rapture event is when the Lord will judge His House first so that any one in iniquity, that includes me, will be denied by Him by that iniquity to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor.
...

Regarding the bolded parts... quote me. Prove to all the readers that I have been preaching such things.

Before you do so, consider this: challenging your position is not preaching my own.

If you can't quote me, then don't claim that I've written such things. Either quote me, or offer an apology for maligning my character in print.

 

[Enow]

Enow,

When you are the one promoting a false doctrine that condemns other believers and contradicts scripture, you should definitely stop right away.

And how does what you preach NOT defer from what all believers had already received as promised at their salvation?

 

[Enow]

Regarding the bolded parts... quote me. Prove to all the readers that I have been preaching such things.

Before you do so, consider this: challenging your position is not preaching my own.

If you can't quote me, then don't claim that I've written such things. Either quote me, or offer an apology for maligning my character in print.

Better yet.... had you received the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, and was that how you had received that supernatural tongue?

If yes to both questions...then how is that not considered preaching another gospel and another Jesus/spirit to receive when you had experienced something that other believers have not?

 

[Dino246]

Better yet.... had you received the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, and was that how you had received that supernatural tongue?

If yes to both questions...then how is that not considered preaching another gospel and another Jesus/spirit to receive when you had experienced something that other believers have not?

Dodge.

Either quote me, or apologize for maligning me. Your move.

 

[Enow]

The time to withdraw is when further discussion is unprofitable. There will always be people who resist the truth.

Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. (2 Tim 3:8).

Proverbs 26
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Yes.. it is a painful lesson to learn.

 

[Pilgrim33]

when someone just refuses to use or even consider things that are very clearly Biblical.

Such as? Do you purchase your slaves from Canada or Mexico? Those countries were used because your flag is from the USA.

Yeah, this is an extreme example of a Biblical precedent which no one follows today. But is it heretical? Not at all.