Where Americas Founders Deists or Christians or Something Else?

[posthuman]

Apart from Biblical Christianity, there are no such things as morals.

i can't agree to that statement the way it is written. it's quite wrong to say for example that in India or China no one had any such thing as a code of ethical conduct or a general socially accepted morality before Christianity was introduced.

the Bible even says the same - -

Romans 2:14-15​

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them​

​

we might say apart from God therr is no morality, but clearly here it's stated that people outside of the church, outside of Israel, not having the scripture at all, arrive at the same morality as the Law teaches - showing that God's own character is written in everyones hearts.
in the context of Romans it establishes that no one has an excuse for sin: with the scripture or without the scripture, everyone has a sense of what is right and wrong, and a basic knowledge that God is good, just and holy - - nature teaches us this, and some knowledge of His ways are written in everyone's hearts, because He created us all.

 

[posthuman]

in such a way that the people would have freedom to self-govern, and adapt to their changing social mores over time

this is fundamentally opposed to the Biblical model. nowhere in scripture do we see people deciding for themselves what is right and wrong, what should be law and what should not be, as something good. in the Biblical model there are eternal principles coming from God that govern what is acceptable and what is unacceptable, and who has authority is ordained by God and God alone.

self-governance and assigned authority by common popular consent are purely humanist, secular constructs.

so we see that while there are strong cultural Christian influences in american government, it's fundamental form is not a 'Biblical' one.

it's like what we see in Judges, "there was no king, and everyone did what was right in their own eyes" - - with a slight twist, that everyone by popular majority decides what the american law will say is right or wrong... well, by the majority of those in power, anyway. not the population - we are not a true democracy.

there was likely an implicit assumption that the majority of the nation would share Christian values, when the country was founded, because at that time they overwhelmingly did. but the actual system of government is set up in such a way that when the majority of people do not share Christian values, they can change the laws to suit their own values. and even, when the majority want an autocracy, they can vote it into place, and change all of the law to enshrined it.

 

[posthuman]

Well, the king was considered a deity, infallible, not allowed to be questioned between he and the Pope they had all authority. I understand America has religious freedom, but it's foundation is Biblical Christianity.

after the RCC gained enough worldly power in europe to seriously challenge kings, it was never the kings who were considered infallible - - if they ever were thought so in europe at all! - - but something pope's declared about themselves, solely. the presumption was that the RCC had taken the role of caeser, not secular kings. the HRE served at the discretion of the papacy that crowned him, not the other way around

 

[posthuman]

@shittim but you believe Christianity = american nationalism and that equals devotion to dt?

got a comment to make? or do i just have to infer from the sour emojis you post?

 

[StreetPreacher]

people seem to be willfully blind....

the US Constitution indicates “the Year of our Lord” before its signatures of the founders

 

[StreetPreacher]

Many of the eight large paintings in the rotunda depict America’s Christian heritage, including the baptism of the Indian princess Pocahontas and the Virginia charter. One painting depicts Pilgrim leader William Brewster holding an open Bible inscribed with the words, “The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The chapel of the House of Representatives contains an open Bible on an altar in front of a stained glass window depicting George Washington in prayer and the words, “Preserve me, O God, for in Thee do I put my trust”. Behind the Speaker’s rostrum in the House of Representatives are the words of the national motto, “In God We Trust.” This refers to the God of the Bible.

 

[StreetPreacher]

Above the main entrance of the Supreme Court are the words “Equal Justice under Law.” It is only in Scripture that we find a truly just and equal concept of law. Men were not treated equally under Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Indian, Mayan, or Chinese law. The concept of equality does not come from Hinduism or Buddhism or Islam or ancient pagan idolatry. Also, the center figure above those words is Moses holding the ten commandment tablets

 

[Aaron56]

Apart from Biblical Christianity, there are no such things as morals.

All of your ideas are 7 Mountain Mandate Doctrine: the idea to take over earthly institutions “in the name of Christ”. It’s Constantine’s “vision” all over again: “In my name (Christ) conquer”. What arose out of that was a diseased harlot who ruled for its own benefit, killing people in war and bankrupting entire nations.
Sadly, It’s what the current evangelical church is following. Their evidence of God’s approval is their increasing ability to force people to “do what is right”.
I don’t believe you can hear any of this. If you want more, begin by asking questions.

 

[StreetPreacher]

Aaron56 don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[posthuman]

people seem to be willfully blind....

the US Constitution indicates “the Year of our Lord” before its signatures of the founders

so?

"Anno Domini nostri" = the year of our lord
usually shortened to AD

my high school diploma says anno domini on it too, but that doesn't make it founded on Christianity.

 

[posthuman]

Aaron56 don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

But what I do, I will also continue to do

what Paul had done, and continued to do, was preach the gospel. he had no aspersions of taking over any government or welding any kind of worldly power at all, to the contrary, he obeyed the roman laws and government, did not seek to change it or become a ruler within it, and wrote to us saying we should likewise obey - not usurp - the secular authorities set in place, seeking to live quiet lives at peace with all people as much as we could.

don't throw the children's bread into the bathwater, SP.

 

[shittim]

@shittim but you believe Christianity = american nationali

@shittim but you believe Christianity = american nationalism and that equals devotion to dt?

got a comment to make? or do i just have to infer from the sour emojis you post?

Not sour, sad.
A person stayed in Him would not entertain these questions.
best wishes

 

[StreetPreacher]

what Paul had done, and continued to do, was preach the gospel. he had no aspersions of taking over any government or welding any kind of worldly power at all, to the contrary, he obeyed the roman laws and government, did not seek to change it or become a ruler within it, and wrote to us saying we should likewise obey - not usurp - the secular authorities set in place, seeking to live quiet lives at peace with all people as much as we could.

don't throw the children's bread into the bathwater, SP.

posthuman you obviously suffer with ADD, the OP was asking if the founders were christian or deist to which I simply argued that they were associated with a judeo-christian world view in framing our government which leans more christianized than buddism, muslim, hindu, etc

 

[ResidentAlien]

Many of the eight large paintings in the rotunda depict America’s Christian heritage, including the baptism of the Indian princess Pocahontas and the Virginia charter. One painting depicts Pilgrim leader William Brewster holding an open Bible inscribed with the words, “The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The chapel of the House of Representatives contains an open Bible on an altar in front of a stained glass window depicting George Washington in prayer and the words, “Preserve me, O God, for in Thee do I put my trust”. Behind the Speaker’s rostrum in the House of Representatives are the words of the national motto, “In God We Trust.” This refers to the God of the Bible.

There's no question the US has a Christian heritage, but it's not a Christian nation in the sense that Iran is a Muslim nation. It's a nation of, and for, all kinds of religious beliefs. Those who can't seem to comprehend this are the one's I'd call blind.

 

[posthuman]

Not sour, sad.
A person stayed in Him would not entertain these questions.
best wishes

a person who stays in Him would preach Him, not dt

 

[posthuman]

posthuman you obviously suffer with ADD, the OP was asking if the founders were christian or deist to which I simply argued that they were associated with a judeo-christian world view in framing our government which leans more christianized than buddism, muslim, hindu, etc

it seems you haven't read the thread.

 

[maxwel]

Hey, bro, I'm going to challenge that a bit. Instead of Christian foundation I'm going with Biblical Christianity or even Judaeo/Christian values. I thought the following was interesting. The Biblical roots of the Declaration of Independence.
onderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

To use a particular definition of terms, or even to change terms, is no challenge to my views.

That kind of clarity and specificity is exactly what we need.
(If we change terms or definitions covertly, it becomes equivocation and deception. But when we change terms openly and transparently, it constitutes a proof of our desire for truth and clarity. Several others have done the same. It's excellent.)


God Bless.
.

 

[maxwel]

So the Kingdom of God tolerates other religions?

Your mistake is seeing worshipping the Living God as a moral religion.

Aaron, I'm not trying to argue here, but I just don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying religion is NOT supposed to be moral, or that religion is supposed to be something else?
I'm not getting the point.
Thanks.

.

 

[maxwel]

when trying to determine a definition - you must determine the real actual contextual definition - not the many different definitions based on the many different perspectives of people - the real actual contextual definition must be properly understood in the mind of every person.

You're bringing up a really interesting point.

There are times we need some kind of "objective" definition for a thing.
But there are other times when this is irrelevant.
How so?

When we need Objective vs Subjective Definitions:

A. OBJECTIVE:
When discussing something entirely OBJECTIVE, like math, or laws of physics, then we need to be using objective definitions.
B. SUBJECTIVE:
However, when discussing someone's OPINION, which is SUBJECTIVE, then we're immediately thrown into semantic problems, where we are simply REQUIRED, logically, to understand that person's SUBJECTIVE DEFINITIONS of things. We must understand their subjective definitions so we can understand what they're trying to say.... we can't debate them when we aren't even sure what they're saying.

* After we understand someone's subjective opinion, and their subjective definitions, and we truly understand what they're saying... then we can take that knowledge and maybe debate them back to a different understanding that we feel is more OBJECTIVE.




Have a great Sunday.

.

 

[posthuman]

Aaron, I'm not trying to argue here, but I just don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying religion is NOT supposed to be moral, or that religion is supposed to be something else?
I'm not getting the point.
Thanks.

.

i think Aaron is reinforcing the fact that the founding principles of america are not equivalent to the principle foundations of the kingdom of God.

in his particular example, the kingdom of God does not tolerate any other gods, or any heresy.
american government however specifically tolerates any and all gods, and any and all beliefs about them.