Where Americas Founders Deists or Christians or Something Else?

[Aaron56]

Aaron, I'm not trying to argue here, but I just don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying religion is NOT supposed to be moral, or that religion is supposed to be something else?
I'm not getting the point.
Thanks.

.

A really good question.

The template for man is union with God; saved to become more like Him. It’s about being. We don’t do things because we know they are right. We are led by the Living Spirit, not by some code of conduct.

If it’s moral at its foundation, then our salvation is merely a matter of judgement: we are saved to go to heaven and not Hell. Many believers believe that is the pinnacle of the faith: avoiding Hell. No, we are saved to be conformed. God is not moral. He IS a life giving Spirit. The purpose for our salvation, then, is ontological (being) not juridical (doing better things).

“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"

”Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ.”

“See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!”

I could say much more, but I’m on a mobile device right now and it’s difficult to type. I sincerely thank you for your question. It might start a deeper discussion.

 

[Aaron56]

i think Aaron is reinforcing the fact that the founding principles of america are not equivalent to the principle foundations of the kingdom of God.

in his particular example, the kingdom of God does not tolerate any other gods, or any heresy.
american government however specifically tolerates any and all gods, and any and all beliefs about them.

Yes. Exactly. Thank you.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

what Paul had done, and continued to do, was preach the gospel. he had no aspersions of taking over any government or welding any kind of worldly power at all, to the contrary, he obeyed the roman laws and government, did not seek to change it or become a ruler within it, and wrote to us saying we should likewise obey - not usurp - the secular authorities set in place, seeking to live quiet lives at peace with all people as much as we could.

don't throw the children's bread into the bathwater, SP.

JTB lost his head for what reason? Queen Esther was definitely involved in politics, as was Joseph.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

well, i certainly agree in the sense that Biblical ethics and morality greatly influenced our laws, and that there was a general assumption that a person in government would generally act with the kind of ethos and morality implicit in Christianity - - which we are unfortunately finding out was not a great assumption to make, because there are a lot of 'loopholes' that allow a person in office who has no such scruples or morality to take advantage of their power and thereby 'break' the system...

but as far as what kind of government we have overall, it's difficult to see any kind of pattern laid out in scripture for it, because for example there is no representative democracy in the Bible: the kingdom of God is a monarchy, as was Israel, and the apostles and those they taught did not involve themselves in worldly politics at all.
even if one takes the example of the Jerusalem council or how the apostles chose Matthias, this isn't democracy - no one is 'voting' on decison making in the Bible, but inquiring of God, of the Spirit. In that sense, american government certainly isn't 'Biblically based' or founded.

there is a closer parallel in the way the catholic church is set up, with a papacy and council of cardinals, which mimics the medieval system of a leigelord or king, with a bloc of wealthy landed nobility.

what i think we can say is that the american form of government has a cultural Christian influence, for sure, but as a system it was designed from purely secular cues, in such a way that the people would have freedom to self-govern, and adapt to their changing social mores over time - - with safeguards as far as they could foresee, to prevent authoritarianism. we are seeing now that those safeguards were probably shortsighted, and insufficient.

Oh I agree, America is certainly unique in it's gov't set up. That said I think it's closer than any other gov't system to Biblical values. At least it use to be, quickly changing unfortunately.

 

[StreetPreacher]

It appears some view the government and the citizens as one and the same. The USA the government was supposed to be, 'we the people' and if that is true then we people lean toward a Judeo/Christian nation. In a rogue nation like Iran they claim a theocratic governance where their so-called allah rules. Clearly, no religion can be forced on a nation but nations are associated to their predominate religion

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

i can't agree to that statement the way it is written. it's quite wrong to say for example that in India or China no one had any such thing as a code of ethical conduct or a general socially accepted morality before Christianity was introduced.

the Bible even says the same - -

Romans 2:14-15​

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them​

​

we might say apart from God therr is no morality, but clearly here it's stated that people outside of the church, outside of Israel, not having the scripture at all, arrive at the same morality as the Law teaches - showing that God's own character is written in everyones hearts.
in the context of Romans it establishes that no one has an excuse for sin: with the scripture or without the scripture, everyone has a sense of what is right and wrong, and a basic knowledge that God is good, just and holy - - nature teaches us this, and some knowledge of His ways are written in everyone's hearts, because He created us all.

Yes, I would totally agree with that POV.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

i think Aaron is reinforcing the fact that the founding principles of america are not equivalent to the principle foundations of the kingdom of God.

in his particular example, the kingdom of God does not tolerate any other gods, or any heresy.
american government however specifically tolerates any and all gods, and any and all beliefs about them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they do now but not so long ago they didn't. Wasn't JFK the first Catholic president?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

There's no question the US has a Christian heritage, but it's not a Christian nation in the sense that Iran is a Muslim nation. It's a nation of, and for, all kinds of religious beliefs. Those who can't seem to comprehend this are the one's I'd call blind.

I don't believe Islam is a religion, I believe it's political and it tries to hide behind religion.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Many of the eight large paintings in the rotunda depict America’s Christian heritage, including the baptism of the Indian princess Pocahontas and the Virginia charter. One painting depicts Pilgrim leader William Brewster holding an open Bible inscribed with the words, “The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” The chapel of the House of Representatives contains an open Bible on an altar in front of a stained glass window depicting George Washington in prayer and the words, “Preserve me, O God, for in Thee do I put my trust”. Behind the Speaker’s rostrum in the House of Representatives are the words of the national motto, “In God We Trust.” This refers to the God of the Bible.

Thank you, I was trying to get to that. The thread kind of lit up so I'm having to catch up.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

All of your ideas are 7 Mountain Mandate Doctrine: the idea to take over earthly institutions “in the name of Christ”. It’s Constantine’s “vision” all over again: “In my name (Christ) conquer”. What arose out of that was a diseased harlot who ruled for its own benefit, killing people in war and bankrupting entire nations.

No, I don't believe in that at all. I believe Christians can and do make a country a better place to live. I don't think that we shouldn't be in politics, run for office like any other job. I believe Christians bring balance to the nation. A lot of things would be continued today except for Christians that got involved. There would still be slavery, child labour, there certainly would be a Jew alive today. Why should Christians not influence a nation, like with child sex trafficking? No, we can help change the direction of the nation when we get involved. Constantine never fully came out of paganism and used Christianity to his political benefit. Bad example.

Sadly, It’s what the current evangelical church is following. Their evidence of God’s approval is their increasing ability to force people to “do what is right”.
I don’t believe you can hear any of this. If you want more, begin by asking questions.

Ok, I'm going to tell a quick story, then tell why you believe it's wrong. Franklin Graham came to our city first time Trump was elected, well he came just before he came into office. Over a thousand people showed up to see him at the Capitol. My mother and I went and one thing he said is that Christians needed to run for things like school board or mayor, ways that you could cause change on the lower levels. So why is that an issue for you?

 

[shittim]

a person who stays in Him would preach Him, not dt[/QUO
and I don't, you seem obsessed however.
good bye

 

[posthuman]

and I don't, you seem obsessed however.
good bye

it's undeniable that a large proportion of the visible church has, tho.

 

[posthuman]

JTB lost his head for what reason? Queen Esther was definitely involved in politics, as was Joseph.

John the baptist criticized the sin of the king - - he did not try to become part of any government or influence it's policies, or campaign for a new worldly king.

neither Esther nor Joseph chose or sought their stations: they were appointed by God. but what do you mean by them?
are they our examples of what kind of careers Christians should all have, that we should all seek to become kings of Egypt and queens of Persia?

 

[posthuman]

Oh I agree, America is certainly unique in it's gov't set up. That said I think it's closer than any other gov't system to Biblical values. At least it use to be, quickly changing unfortunately.

there are a number of other democratic republics in the world, we aren't unique in that sense.

in what way do you see the structure of our government as reflecting 'Biblical values' that no other country does? what values, in particular?

 

[GWH]

how about for example, why does it matter if this country was founded by Christians?

what does it prove or disprove, if Christian principles, ethics and/or values are fundamental or not fundamental to the way the government of this country was organized?

what does it show, that the founding fathers had mostly Judeo-Christian beliefs, yet some did not?

would any of this make Christianity a fundamental core foundation of the US? what if it does, and what if it doesn't?

in what kind of arguments does the question of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers come up? what point is proven by their being mostly Christians, or by them being not all one denomination, or not all Christians, or even if some were atheist?

Why our founding by folks who provided religious liberty matters is because it allowed the revival of NT-based Christianity led by Wesley and Whitefield, which may be viewed as phase two of the Protestant Reformation. At least that is where my evangelism is rooted along with Roger Williams, founder of the first Baptist church in Rhode Island.

 

[posthuman]

Why our founding by folks who provided religious liberty matters is because it allowed the revival of NT-based Christianity led by Wesley and Whitefield, which may be viewed as phase two of the Protestant Reformation. At least that is where my evangelism is rooted along with Roger Williams, founder of the first Baptist church in Rhode Island.

America is not just a melting pot of people, but also a melting pot of denominations - - this has been both good and bad: theology has been free to expand, but it's also been free to stray from orthodoxy into heresy and give rise to various cults

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

America is not just a melting pot of people, but also a melting pot of denominations - - this has been both good and bad: theology has been free to expand, but it's also been free to stray from orthodoxy into heresy and give rise to various cults

Trying to keep up here. Appreciate everyone who is adding to the thread. For those who don't know, I was not born in America, but moved here over 10yrs ago. So I would expect that would color my view of the US too. I've always considered this an interesting question and had asked others brighter than me to start a thread. When that didn't happen, I figured I'd just dive in and see what came of it. So whether we agree or disagree I appreciate everyone parsing out these definitions together.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

there are a number of other democratic republics in the world, we aren't unique in that sense.

in what way do you see the structure of our government as reflecting 'Biblical values' that no other country does? what values, in particular?

As I just said, I think being the "little brother" of America has colored a lot of how I view the country. Yes, there are other republics, but I believe the US is unique in its freedom of speech, and freedom of the people and capitalism which has pulled many out of poverty. Though I would have into it more deeply to fully answer the question.

 

[shittim]

Oh I agree, America is certainly unique in it's gov't set up. That said I think it's closer than any other gov't system to Biblical values. At least it use to be, quickly changing unfortunately.

Only 2 nations I know of dedicated to the Father, The U.S. by George Washington.
https://search.brave.com/search?q=g...summary=1&conversation=34c353e037984569c059d2

And Israel by His covenant.

blessings

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Only 2 nations I know of dedicated to the Father, The U.S. by George Washington.
https://search.brave.com/search?q=g...summary=1&conversation=34c353e037984569c059d2

And Israel by His covenant.

blessings

Yes, that would be my worldview also.