Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

[eternally-gratefull]

Were those things there at that time?

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Were these things existing in about 96 AD? Or did John see a Vision of a future event?

Did this happen at that time?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Or did John see a vision of a future event?

Christ plainly says that it was a vision. Now you can keep trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole, but it is obvious what you are thinking.

he saw future things.

If you want to argue this. and ignore what God said (and moses and elias appeared with Jesus and they were talking" thats on your head!

 

[Shiloah]

I'm not patient enough to for this type of debate. The logic I'm seeing represented here is so twisted I'm lost. You have to be reasonable to reasoned with.

 

[Michael50]

so how did Moses and Elijah meat with christ on the mountain?

and who were the spirits that jesus taught to?

And how was the criminal with Jesus that very night in paradise?

Elizah was taken up in a whirlwind into heaven. Elizah is not dead. He never died,, not even once! 2 kings 2:11

Moses did die. God buried Moses..Duet 34:6, And God raised Moses from the dead, Jude 9. Moses is alive!

That is why both were seen with Jesus at the transfiguration.

Elijah & Moses are both prototypes:

Elijah represents those saints that shall be alive on the earth at the appearance of Jesus in the clouds!

Moses represents those who sleep in their graves awaiting the Ressurection to life!

Jesus laid in His grave. He went nowhere.

Jesus never told the theif that he was going to paradise that same day.

On the 1st day of the week, Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to My Father." (John 20:17)

The scripture in question is Luke 23:43.

The comma is what causes folks to believe the theif went to paradise the same day he died.

this is wrong> Verily I say to you,,,,TODAY you shall be with Me in paradise.

This is Right> "Verily I say to you TODAY,,,,you shall be with Me in paradise."

The scripture is indeed inspired,,, but not punctuation. Isn't it amazing how powerful a comma can be?

Back to the "Spirits" that you claim Jesus preached to while He was supposedly in the grave.

The scripture in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20

The preaching was done "by the spirit" (verse 18) in Noahs day- to people who were then living (verses 19 & 20)

The "spirits in prison", refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (see Psalms 142:7 ,,, Isaiah 42:6,7,,,,,61:1,,,,,and luke 4:18)

I've addressed all three of your questions to the best of my ability along with the Holy Spirit as my guide!

I can do no more, but love you and pray for you.

 

[john832]

Yes, living creatures are body, soul and spirit, which are commonly referred to as "souls."
All spirits are immortal. . .divine, angelic, human and demonic.

Rocks are not souls and do not have spirits.

Problem is that the scripture does not say that. It plainly states that only God has immortality and it is a gift that He will give to His children...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Who alone possesses immortality?

God. What does God promise to us?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal life is not something we possess, it is something God promises us, otherwise what kind of gift is it if we already have it? It is given us at the resurrection...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We are mortal (means we die) and can be given the gift of immortality. We are not already immortal, we are mortal. We can become immortal. Those who do not become immortal become dead...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And there ultimate reward is to become ashes under the souls of the righteous' feet...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[john832]

he saw future things.

If you want to argue this. and ignore what God said (and moses and elias appeared with Jesus and they were talking" thats on your head!

Again, Christ plainly said that it was a vision, you can call it a space shuttle if you wish, but that is on your head.

 

[john832]

I'm not patient enough to for this type of debate. The logic I'm seeing represented here is so twisted I'm lost. You have to be reasonable to reasoned with.

Ya got that right!

 

[Elin]

You and scriptures aren't on the same page. You ignore a wealth of other verses and then interpret this scripture to say exactly what you want it to mean. Obviously we're all made alive in Christ even when we fall asleep in Him, just like Lazarus, who Jesus Himself said was both asleep and dead, and just like Stephen who was said to FALL ASLEEP when he died from being stoned. We are still alive in Christ, but at the same time, the actual resurrection does not happen until the last trump. Time stops for us at death and resumes at the last trump. Hence, time doesn't exist for the dead in Christ. And since we are preserved in Christ, in that way, we never truly die. But that has nothing to do whatsoever with an immortal soul.

Agreed. . .it is the spirit that is immortal.

Why why why does it say THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST if they weren't dead??

Their bodies are dead, and their bodies will rise transformed into glorious bodies like the resurrection body of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not patient enough to for this type of debate. The logic I'm seeing represented here is so twisted I'm lost. You have to be reasonable to reasoned with.

funny thing is we could say the same thing about your logic!!

 

[Elin]

So Abraham was made immortal before Christ arose?

Are you saying Jesus was lying?

Abraham's spirit was created immortal.

His body was not.

Abraham's spirit is living now, not his body.

 

[john832]

And yet Jesus said that Abraham is living now (Mt 22:31-32).

So what part of him is still living?

That is not what He says here, read the whole quote...

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In the resurrection! Now when is the resurrection?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

And all here includes Abraham.

 

[john832]

Are you saying Jesus was lying?

Abraham's spirit was created immortal.

His body was not.

Abraham's spirit is living now, not his body.

Got a scripture for that? Show me where God created Abraham's spirit/soul, whatever you want to call it, immortal. Christ plainly says that He can and will destroy souls.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, Christ plainly said that it was a vision, you can call it a space shuttle if you wish, but that is on your head.

(rolls eyes) fine. believe what you wish.

You have not proven one thing. just your opinion.

Granted, you can say the same to me.. But all that proves is we have a stalemate

However, I will not judge yo ufor this. for this is not a salvic issue. We will both know the truth one day. I just hope and pray we both learn it when we meet God face to face after being ressurected by him./ And not because one of us was delievered to him for judgment.

 

[john832]

I'm not patient enough to for this type of debate. The logic I'm seeing represented here is so twisted I'm lost. You have to be reasonable to reasoned with.

I seem to never learn.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you saying Jesus was lying?

Abraham's spirit was created immortal.

His body was not.

Abraham's spirit is living now, not his body.

They can't see this.. Moses is living now, David is living now.; All in paradise, awaiting the return of their savior to ressurect them and give them new bodies!

God is not the God of the dead, as you have shown SO MANY TIMES.

 

[Michael50]

They can't see this.. Moses is living now, David is living now.; All in paradise, awaiting the return of their savior to ressurect them and give them new bodies!

God is not the God of the dead, as you have shown SO MANY TIMES.

I answered your 3 questions....refer to post # 423 As far as David,, Peter said david is both dead and buried, that he is not in heaven, but is in the grave,, read Acts 2:29

Post # 423 has the other answers.

 

[Elin]

That is not what He says here, read the whole quote...

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In the resurrection! Now when is the resurrection?

Jesus was refuting the Sadducees who did not believe in immortality of the spirit, and therefore believed there was no being to resurrect (bring back).

Jesus proved that Abraham was still a living being because God is (present tense) the God of Abraham, and God is a God only of the living, therefore, it logically follows that Abraham is living.

So what part of Abraham is living? It's not his body.
It is his immortal spirit, which will again be clothed in a transformed physical body when that body is resurrected.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Yes, Paul is describing the resurrection of our physical bodies which will then be immortal, and which will again clothe our immortal spirits at the body's resurrection, so that the immortal spirit will now be clothed with an immortal body for eternity.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

And all here includes Abraham.

Yes, Abraham's body died, but his spirit did not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I answered your 3 questions....refer to post # 423 As far as David,, Peter said david is both dead and buried, that he is not in heaven, but is in the grave,, read Acts 2:29

Post # 423 has the other answers.

lol.. No you did not answer them all

Davids body is in the grave. David is not there..

was jesus dead for three days in the grave? or did he do something in those three days??

He is the firstfruit of our bodies being risen. No one was risen to a new body before christ.

but he also shows us what happens when we die..

But hey, if you want God to be a God of the dead.. so be it!

 

[Elin]

Got a scripture for that? Show me where God created Abraham's spirit/soul, whatever you want to call it, immortal. Christ plainly says that He can and will destroy souls.

The spirit (pneuma) and the soul (pusche) are not the same thing.

And the answer to your question lies in your answer to my question:

what part of Abraham is still living, as Jesus said (Mt 21:31-32)?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The spirit (pneuma) and the soul (pusche) are not the same thing.

And the answer to your question lies in your answer to my question:

what part of Abraham is still living, as Jesus said (Mt 21:31-32)?

do you mean matt 22: 31- 32?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[Michael50]

lol.. No you did not answer them all

Davids body is in the grave. David is not there..

was jesus dead for three days in the grave? or did he do something in those three days??

He is the firstfruit of our bodies being risen. No one was risen to a new body before christ.

but he also shows us what happens when we die..

But hey, if you want God to be a God of the dead.. so be it!

Believe as you desire.