Who assembled the 5,000?

[kenisyes]

I have assumed that the 5,000 men (how many total do you think?) that Jesus fed, were assembled by the apostles and the 70 others He sent out just before that. I was surprised in another thread to see that not everyone agrees with this. What do you think? Does Scripture give us enough information to tell?

 

[JaumeJ]

I think you know. They were drawn by the Word. As for the number, was the number counting only the men, not the women or children?

People have been impelled by the Holy Spirit to be in a place they had not planned on going to previously. Usually this happens by spiritual impulse, but they have actually been physcally moved by the Holy Spirit.

Does anything here apply or seem right? Not disputing, just throwing it out..

 

[kenisyes]

I am quite certain the Holy Spirit drew them to want to hear Jesus. I'm wondering how they got to that specific spot all at the same time. That is another matter. Compare how easily the Spirit moves two people who meet to work together, but how rare it is for the Spirit to cause a person to dial a specific unknown phone number, say "the Lord told me to call you", and to have gotten the correct person.

 

[Bookends]

Many people followed Jesus, besides the main 12 as you stated, because they saw the signs/miracles of Jesus. Many departed Jesus after he said, " you must eat of my flesh, and drink my blood" (John 6).

 

[Grandpa]

I guess it should be surprising that there were only 5000. I bet there would have been more if they would have known there was going to be free food!!!

 

[kenisyes]

I guess it should be surprising that there were only 5000. I bet there would have been more if they would have known there was going to be free food!!!

I don't know. A bunch of churches here in Milford give out free food, each on various days of the week. I cannot tell if they really care or are trying to compete for new members. But they all get the same 80 or so people.

 

[directline2iam]

I have assumed that the 5,000 men (how many total do you think?) that Jesus fed, were assembled by the apostles and the 70 others He sent out just before that. I was surprised in another thread to see that not everyone agrees with this. What do you think? Does Scripture give us enough information to tell?

The bible does clearly state in Luke chapter 9 that the 12 apostles set the people down in rows of 50 to eat. And surely it was a figure of speech (5000). God didn't come in the flesh for just men. For he said suffer the little children to come onto me...

And then in chapter 10:1 it says "After these things (which included the feeding of the 5000) the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, wither he himself would come.

 

[kenisyes]

The bible does clearly state in Luke chapter 9 that the 12 apostles set the people down in rows of 50 to eat. And surely it was a figure of speech (5000). God didn't come in the flesh for just men. For he said suffer the little children to come onto me...

And then in chapter 10:1 it says "After these things (which included the feeding of the 5000) the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, wither he himself would come.

That's kind of my idea. With the feeding sandwiched (pun intended) between the two sendings, it makes it sound like the first crowd was gathered by the 12 as they walked from town to town, so Jesus decided the method worked well enough to try an expansion.

 

[phil36]

This is an interesting idea Kenisyes. Theres a couple of issues to look at,
1) even if they did bring the multitude, it doesn't change the narrative..it doesn't add anything or take away anything.

2) Where there big followings of Jesus before this event,

3) what is the overall narrative about (in its 1st century context)

4)why were the people following Jesus

5) Is there any significance of the 70 going out and returning regarding the feeding of the 5000

6) what was the purpose of the 70

7) where the people there because of the 12 or 70, or was it because of Jesus

8) If it was because of Jesus why?

9) If it was because of the 12 and 70, what were they being told about Jesus (it's very easy to say because they were being told of the Kingdom of God, but what exactly did that mean to 1st century ears).

10) does it have any significance in the nature of the narrative for its first observers and hearers.

11) do the 70 in the narrative have any significance for us now.

and lastly does it really matter? even though an interesting hypotheses

defiantly will look at this later..

 

[kenisyes]

Phil, thank you for listing points and helping us outline the research that needs to be done.

One point to clarify, of course they were there because of Jesus. My question is, was it because the 12 went out and told them a certain time and day to assemble if they wished to, or did Jesus just show up one day, and everybody went crazy because He was around.

 

[1still_waters]

Might not be that complicated.
Why do people pay tons of money to gather by the thousands to watch sports events?
It's a good show.

I'm sure back then a guy doing miracles, and turning a few fishes into many fishes was quite exciting.

Some may have simply followed along cuz it was a good show in their eyes.
They didn't have Direct TV back in those days.

 

[zone]

just a few short verses later Jesus Himself gave the answer:

John 6
Words to the People
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

...

context:

22The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.23There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.24So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.25When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”

Words to the People

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Words to the Jews

41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.48“I am the bread of life.49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

 

[kenisyes]

Why do people pay tons of money to gather by the thousands to watch sports events?
Some may have simply followed along cuz it was a good show in their eyes.

And because someone tells them when and where to come.

I have no doubt Jesus had groupies. Ever try to move 5000 people following one guy? Like protecting the president when he travels? Lots of logistics. By the time the crowd got to 1000, most people would have thought about lunch.

 

[kenisyes]

just a few short verses later Jesus Himself gave the answer:

John 6
Words to the People
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

But that can't be right. He fed them because they had assembled. The assmebly came before the feeding. This event must refer to after He fed them.

 

[zone]

But that can't be right. He fed them because they had assembled. The assmebly came before the feeding. This event must refer to after He fed them.

it does:

John 6
Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand
1After this Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick. 3Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. 4Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. 5Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?” 6He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do. 7Philip answered him, “Two hundred denariia would not buy enough bread for each of them to get a little.” 8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to him, 9“There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are they for so many?” 10Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, about five thousand in number. 11Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated. So also the fish, as much as they wanted. 12And when they had eaten their fill, he told his disciples, “Gather up the leftover fragments, that nothing may be lost.” 13So they gathered them up and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves left by those who had eaten. 14When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, “This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!”

15Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

Jesus Walks on Water
16When evening came, his disciples went down to the sea, 17got into a boat, and started across the sea to Capernaum. It was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 18The sea became rough because a strong wind was blowing. 19When they had rowed about three or four miles,b they saw Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the boat, and they were frightened. 20But he said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21Then they were glad to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going.

I Am the Bread of Life
22On the next day the crowd that remained on the other side of the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with his disciples, but that his disciples had gone away alone. 23Other boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.

25When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves

......

it's some from the same crowd seeking Him.
right after He fed them, the wanted to make Him King BY FORCE.
cuz He was feeding them and stuff.
He said so the next day when they found Him.

 

[kenisyes]

6.1 does seem to settle it that they were following Him, because of the signs. (Not 6:26; that was after). So does that mean that the presentation in Luke, placing the event after the sending of the twelve, had the twelve announce Jesus, then Jesus Himself come through, do enough wonders to gather such a crowd? If so then everybody's right. The twelve announced the Kingdom of God, Jesus verified He was the person bringing it, and the crowd arose spontaneously after seeing Jesus do the signs. 6:26 then refers to how they changed their motivation?

 

[iamsoandso]

make him king by force,,,,, hmm,,,acts 13;1,,,,,Romans 11;1,,,,,Philippians 3;4-7,,,,,,so as if the Romans had not ruled the Jews after any of their revolts,,,,then the right-full heir to the throne would be one from the tribe of Judah,,,or the other of the sons of Saul of the tribe of Benjamin? ,,,,,How is it that Saul grew up in the house with Antipas and Manaen? what sighns were they suppose to see while they were eating the loaves,,,"the ascention to the throne"?,,,,that is Antipas was educated in Rome and Saul along with him,,,three kings,,,,and 5000 assembling before one,,,,

 

[phil36]

Hi Kenisys,

I have finally had a bit of time to look at what you are saying. To start of with and just thinking to myself I thought there may be a bit of truth in this, I wasn't totally convinced. And after careful consideration I am not convinced of your argument. I will give my reasons.

I started of with Mark, for two reasons really, it's the shortest gospel and also gives the framework for Matthew and Luke if you follow the quelle hypothese regarding the synoptics. It wasn't long before I noticed weakness's in your argument, I will come back to the first one in a moment.

First, if we go to Matthews account of the beginning of Jesus' ministry we see 'large crowds' following Jesus, not just from Galilee but from all over Matt 4:25 - 5:1. Now just after the sermon on the mount large crowds were still following him Matt 8:1, Jesus preached throughout all Galilee (Mark 1:35-39, John makes us aware that Jesus also visited Jerusalem in the early stages aswell), so Jesus fame was well spread and he was well known (Mark 6:14) and large crowds where following him even before he picked the 12.

It is this I want to draw your attention, and it was in my opinion why your argument although novel, does not stand. It is Mark 3:8 - here we see large crowds following Jesus even before he had picked the 12.

We didn't have to go far to see that the 70 were not responsible for gathering the crowds, nor infact where the 12. I do notice that you say that you always 'presumed' that the 12 and 70 where responsible... assumptions aren't always true.

One of the major reasons why they would have ben there is that the people where very expectant of their Messiah, the anointed earthly King, like David. Who would relieve them of their oppression from the Romans and they would rule as like in their Golden era forever.. that is why they were going to make him King - however as they and we found out, Jesus would indeed be King but not by Human hands,

Anyhow, IN just the verses given above, in my opinion the issue is settled (I'm quite glad, didn't have the time to go through all the other querries). We can learn by the 70 going out, however they where not the crowd drawers, they may have brought some people no doubting that but the throngs of crowds where already following behing Jesus even before the 12 were chosen.

 

[zone]

6.1 does seem to settle it that they were following Him, because of the signs. (Not 6:26; that was after). So does that mean that the presentation in Luke, placing the event after the sending of the twelve, had the twelve announce Jesus, then Jesus Himself come through, do enough wonders to gather such a crowd? If so then everybody's right. The twelve announced the Kingdom of God, Jesus verified He was the person bringing it, and the crowd arose spontaneously after seeing Jesus do the signs. 6:26 then refers to how they changed their motivation?

Ken, some always believed and some never did.
there was always a division among the people because of Him.

this came true, just as God said it would:

Daniel 12
5Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river.6And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?”7I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.8As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?”9He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.10“Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.11“From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.12“How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

 

[kenisyes]

Ken, some always believed and some never did.
there was always a division among the people because of Him.

this came true, just as God said it would:

That is certainly the point of the story. The signs got them there, the feeding must have been awesome (somebody said "let's count them" or we would not have a total; that sounds to me like someone was pretty impressed). And then Jesus told them about the Kingdom, and all of a sudden, there were many who no longer cared.