Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

... do you even read responses to the posts you submit?

I have been telling you that it is the Object of faith Who justifies ... and I provided links to 15 posts previously submitted by me to you wherein that is what I have stated.

My question to you is ... do you now believe this truth because your source (Don Fortner) is now telling you ?

If so, then you are a follower of men ...
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We dont believe the same, you oppose the truth.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We dont believe the same

that's because I believe Scripture just as the Author of Scripture wrote it.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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[brightfame52]

Rom 4:5 proves that the elect are in a state of Justification while in a state of ungodliness. Its comparable to the elect being reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10 34

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 4:5 proves

The point of Romans 4:5 is faith ≠ works ... which you would know if you would read verses within the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them.

But you are not interested in what the Author of Scripture has written.

You focus on trying to align Scripture to your dogma rather than aligning your dogma to Scripture ... which is why you completely miss the point of Romans 4:5 as well as Romans 5:10 34 (which does not even exist in Scripture).

the elect are in a state of Justification while in a state of ungodliness

... erroneous dogma ...

According to Scripture, God imputes righteousness to the ungodly the moment a person believes, at which point he or she is no longer ungodly:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4 "proves" that God imputes righteousness when a person believes ... not before, not after, but at the exact moment a person believes. At that moment, the person is justified ... he or she is no longer ungodly.

the elect being reconciled to God while being enemies

"reconciled" and "enemies" are mutually exclusive terms.

the word "enemies" in Romans 5:10 (not sure what the 34 refers to ???) is translated from the Greek word echthros which means an enemy; someone openly hostile (at enmity) ... implies irreconcilable hostility.

the word "reconciled" in Romans 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position. Since we know God does not change, it is the person who believes that changes (i.e. reconciles with God Who does not change).


You have again failed to "prove" that anyone is "in a state of Justification while in a state of ungodliness".


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

 

[brightfame52]

The point of Romans 4:5 is faith ≠ works ... which you would know if you would read verses within the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them.

But you are not interested in what the Author of Scripture has written.

You focus on trying to align Scripture to your dogma rather than aligning your dogma to Scripture ... which is why you completely miss the point of Romans 4:5 as well as Romans 5:10 34 (which does not even exist in Scripture).





... erroneous dogma ...

According to Scripture, God imputes righteousness to the ungodly the moment a person believes, at which point he or she is no longer ungodly:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4 "proves" that God imputes righteousness when a person believes ... not before, not after, but at the exact moment a person believes. At that moment, the person is justified ... he or she is no longer ungodly.





"reconciled" and "enemies" are mutually exclusive terms.

the word "enemies" in Romans 5:10 (not sure what the 34 refers to ???) is translated from the Greek word echthros which means an enemy; someone openly hostile (at enmity) ... implies irreconcilable hostility.

the word "reconciled" in Romans 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position. Since we know God does not change, it is the person who believes that changes (i.e. reconciles with God Who does not change).


You have again failed to "prove" that anyone is "in a state of Justification while in a state of ungodliness".


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

Rom 4:5 proves that God Justified the elect of God, while being ungodly, in unbelief.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 4:5 proves that God Justified the elect of God, while being ungodly, in unbelief.

read the verse, brightfame52 ...

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I highlighted the operative word for you, brightfame52 ... just in case you missed it ...


In Romans 4:20 we read:

Romans 4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God

the word "unbelief" is translated from the Greek word apistia which means unbelief: shown in withholding belief in the divine power, Mark 16:14, or in the power and promises of God, Romans 4:20

according to Scripture, the person withholds belief in the promises of God. In the case of Abraham, he did not withhold belief in God's promise ...
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[brightfame52]

God doesnt Justify the elect for their natural sinfulness, ungodliness, but because, Christ has died for them[Rom 8:33-34], and His Righteousness has been charged to their credit See 2 Cor 5:21. So they are legally righteous on a just ground, while they themselves are ungodly prior to conversion. 34

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God doesnt Justify the elect for their natural sinfulness, ungodliness, but because, Christ has died for them

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Your denial of this truth does not change the truth into what you want to consider as "truth".

So they are legally righteous on a just ground, while they themselves are ungodly prior to conversion.

... they are not "legally righteous" prior to conversion. Prior to conversion they are "ungodly" ... and your denial of this truth does not change the truth into what you want to consider as "truth".


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

 

[brightfame52]

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Your denial of this truth does not change the truth into what you want to consider as "truth".





... they are not "legally righteous" prior to conversion. Prior to conversion they are "ungodly" ... and your denial of this truth does not change the truth into what you want to consider as "truth".


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

More opposition to the Death of Christ and how it Justified them He died for.

 

[brightfame52]

Pay close attention to Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now the object of the believers Faith, is He God that Justifieth the ungodly ! Now if ungodly, then of course unbelievers.

 

[brightfame52]

Now who is it that God Justifies ? Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

He Justifieth His Elect. Not everyone without exception, but Justification by the God of the Bible is reserved for only a elect people.

Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Pardon is synonymous with Justification and reserve has todo with a remnant as in a remnant according to election f grace Rom 11:4-5

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Now if ungodly, then of course unbelievers.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Once a person believes, he or she is justified, made righteous by God ... no longer "ungodly" ... no longer "unbelievers".

And, of course, the point of Romans 4:2-8 is faith is not works.
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[reneweddaybyday]

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Who has God "reserved" to Himself, brightfame52?

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

God has reserved to Himself those who "have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" ... those who have not rejected God ... those who have not restrained the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) ...

which is what I have been telling you for ever so long, brightfame52.


Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
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[brightfame52]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Once a person believes, he or she is justified, made righteous by God ... no longer "ungodly" ... no longer "unbelievers".

And, of course, the point of Romans 4:2-8 is faith is not works.
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Denial of the Truth !

 

[brightfame52]

Now even though God will only justify His Elect, yet He does it while they themselves are most ungodly . He is Justified before he is made a holy believer, but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:1,3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 34

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He is Justified before he is made a holy believer but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

... your surmisings are wholly without merit.

God justifies a person the moment he or she believes. At that point, he or she is no longer "ungodly, and dead in sin".


God imputes righteousness the instant the person believes ... not before ... not after ... but at the very same moment.

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Read vs 24, brightfame52.

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

the verbs shall be imputed and if we believe are present tense

righteousness shall be imputed [present tense]

if we believe [pesent tense]

God imputes righteousness to the believer when he or she believes.

Your denial of Scripture does not change Scripture to your erroneous renderings.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[brightfame52]

Another scripture that points out that Justification is only for Gods Elect as promised is Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Cp Rom 8:33


33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The elect and seed of Israel are the same.

 

[brightfame52]

... your surmisings are wholly without merit.

God justifies a person the moment he or she believes. At that point, he or she is no longer "ungodly, and dead in sin".


God imputes righteousness the instant the person believes ... not before ... not after ... but at the very same moment.

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Read vs 24, brightfame52.

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

the verbs shall be imputed and if we believe are present tense

righteousness shall be imputed [present tense]

if we believe [pesent tense]

God imputes righteousness to the believer when he or she believes.

Your denial of Scripture does not change Scripture to your erroneous renderings.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

God justifies the ungodly by the death of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Now on what account does God Justify the ungodly elect ? Its upon the ground of Imputed righteousness, those whom God Justifies, He doesnt impute sin, and those He doesnt impute sin, He imputes righteousness without works.

Remember when Paul quoted David, who said Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now read how Paul understood David here in Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See the correspondence of non imputation of sin with imputed righteousness without works ?

And of course we also know imputed righteousness is also equivalent to Justification. 35

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Remember when Paul quoted David, who said Ps 32:1-2

why do you stop at verse 2, brightfame52? why do you rip verses from the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them? do you not want to know what the Author wants you to know???

Psalm 32:

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.


According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:


5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.

See the correspondence of non imputation of sin with imputed righteousness without works ?

the whole point of Romans 4:2-8 is that faith is not works.

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Please note that when David wrote Psalm 32, he clearly indicated his sins were forgiven after he acknowledged his sin, confessed his sin to God. Then his sins were forgiven:

Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.


clearly, according to Romans 4:5 faith ≠ works.

Your problem is that you erroneously believe faith is works and God plainly tells us faith is not works. Believe God and let go of your erroneous dogma.
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