Who Justifieth the Ungodly

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Justified before Faith and why !

Justified before believing and why ? Its so because, its by means of the act of another, that other is Christ Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now why are those Christ died for Justified or made Righteous before God before they believe ? Its because they were prior to condemned by the act of Adam, acting as their head and representative, and so when he sinned in that capacity [as their Head /Representative], God imputed condemnation upon all men that he did represent Rom 5:18a, for they [the all men] did not at that time have an actual existence, and so its not an act of theirs [personally] that resulted in the passing of Judgment of condemnation upon them.

Now it is true that the condemnation incurred as per Rom 5:18a by the sin of Adam does become sensibly realized when by the Spirit we are convinced of sin [sinnership], however we were condemned prior to being made sensible to it, by the act of another Adam ; AND so likewise, it is true that the Justification given us in Christ Our Head and Representative, is revealed to God given Faith, however we were Justified by the act of another [Christ] before the sensible realization of it is given though Faith !

Now Adam was a figure/type of Him that was to come [Christ] who came also in a Covenant Head/ Representative Capacity, and scripture tells us that by His act or doing or obedience [Vs 18], that all those He represented, the Judgment and sentence of God passed upon them because of it, is that they are made or declared Righteous and given Justification of life, and this as with the figure Adam, even before they He represented had any being or physical existence, Rom 5:18-19. 8
If any man is IN CHRIST, he is a new creature...

If any man is the same as every man who is. Every man who is in Christ is a NEW CREATURE.

When does one become a new Creature?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
Christ's death alone Justify's those He died for !

That Christ's Blood alone, Death alone Justified everyone for whom He died, all those whom offences were charged to Him; For that Truth is taught here Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our [those He died for] offences, and was raised again for[because of][those He died for] our justification.

It's seen as well here Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The words came upon are the prep εἰς which means:

into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.

1519 eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

It means toward the result of a specified purpose. The purposed result of the offence of the one adam was Judgment unto condemnation, and the purposed result of the righteousness of Christ [in His Life and Death] is Justification of Life.

Yes, the one act of righteousness here in Rom 5:18 is synonymous with that being delivered up for our trespasses in Rom 4:25; and the resulted Justification of Life in Rom 5:18 is synonymous to that Justification declared in Rom 4:25 evidenced by Christ's Resurrection !

In both instances the stated results were apart from any acts from the recipients of the actions by each one who acted, Adam and Christ in their behalf.

No act of Faith or believing was needed for the result of Justification of Life !
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Now why are those Christ died for Justified or made Righteous before God before they believe ?
No one is justified before they believe:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".



Align your thoughts with Scripture ... do not try to align Scripture to your dogma.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!



 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
When one denies Grace Justification it automatically defaults to Justification by your own works/action ... !
only in your discombobulated thought processes due to your dogma being so out of alignment with Scripture.

you need to align your thoughts to what is written in Scripture ... do not manipulate Scripture to fit your dogma.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
That Christ's Blood alone, Death alone Justified everyone for whom He died,
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.




brightfame52 said:
In both instances the stated results were apart from any acts from the recipients of the actions by each one who acted, Adam and Christ in their behalf.
nope ...

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned




No act of Faith or believing was needed for the result of Justification of Life !
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ



 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
No one is justified before they believe:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".


Align your thoughts with Scripture ... do not try to align Scripture to your dogma.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Yes they are and I explained why, you ignored it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
only in your discombobulated thought processes due to your dogma being so out of alignment with Scripture.

you need to align your thoughts to what is written in Scripture ... do not manipulate Scripture to fit your dogma.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Yes when you deny Grace Justification it automatically defaults to conditionalism.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.





nope ...

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned





Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
I know you adamantly deny that Christs blood /death alone Justified before God everyone He died for. So that means He died ultimately only for the Just or Justified.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Yes they are and I explained why, you ignored it.
I do not ignore Scripture.

You need to align your surmisings with Scripture ... thus far all you have done is manipulate Scripture in your attempts to get Scripture to align with your dogma.


sad, brightfame52, that you cannot just read what's in Scripture and believe what is written.


Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Yes when you deny Grace Justification it automatically defaults to conditionalism.
I do not deny grace or justification.

Again, align your surmisings with Scripture ... thus far all you have done is manipulate Scripture in your attempts to get Scripture to align with your dogma.

sad, brightfame52, that you cannot just read what's in Scripture and believe what is written.


Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
I know you adamantly deny that Christs blood /death alone Justified before God everyone He died for. So that means He died ultimately only for the Just or Justified.
I do not deny Scripture.

You, however, deny what is clearly written.



When God tells us it is His desire that the wicked turn from evil ways:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



When God tells us it is His desire to have all men saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.




When God tells us that faith is not works and that we are justified by faith:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



You, on the other hand, must manipulate Scripture so you say "what God really means is _________". You can't just believe God and accept what He wrote. so sad :cry:


 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
Justified by His Death alone !

Rom 6:7 8

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

That those Christ died for are Justified solely by His Death is seen here in the above scriptures.

He who hath died or is dead is freed from sin. that word freed is the greek word dikaioó:

I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

This is because by Christ's death alone they have been cleared of all charges by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified !

Now this is true of all for whom Christ died, simply because, all for whom He died, God reckons it as if they died, because He died in the place and in their behalf, when He died for their sins 1 Cor 15:3 or when He was delivered for their offences Rom 4:25.

By Him being their Head and Substitute, when He died, so did they as far as the reckoning of Divine Law and Justice is concerned; Just like when they were in Adam, when he died they died,however when they died in adam that death brought to them condemnation, but the death they died in Christ when He died for them, that death brought about their Justification Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This is basically what Rom 6:7 is saying. So it is by His Death alone apart from anything they do, they are Justified before God. They are freed[Justified] from sin !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
I do not ignore Scripture.

You need to align your surmisings with Scripture ... thus far all you have done is manipulate Scripture in your attempts to get Scripture to align with your dogma.

sad, brightfame52, that you cannot just read what's in Scripture and believe what is written.


Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
You ignored what I posted with scripture. Explain to me what I posted with scripture.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
I do not deny grace or justification.

Again, align your surmisings with Scripture ... thus far all you have done is manipulate Scripture in your attempts to get Scripture to align with your dogma.

sad, brightfame52, that you cannot just read what's in Scripture and believe what is written.


Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
You deny that those Christ died for are Justified by Grace apart from anything they do. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This declares that the elect whom He died for are Justified solely by His death by grace.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
I do not deny Scripture.

You, however, deny what is clearly written.



When God tells us it is His desire that the wicked turn from evil ways:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



When God tells us it is His desire to have all men saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



When God tells us that faith is not works and that we are justified by faith:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



You, on the other hand, must manipulate Scripture so you say "what God really means is _________". You can't just believe God and accept what He wrote. so sad :cry:
You teach that there are sinners Christ died for and they remain unjust and do perish in their sins. Dont you believe that ? Be honest !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,263
548
113
Remission of sins is Justification !

Remission of sins is an aspect of Justification, and can even be called Justification, as it pertains to being justified from all the legal consequences of our sins, for this is what Paul means by it here Acts 13:39

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Some Translations have the right Ideal here:

39 And that through Him everyone who believes [who acknowledges Jesus as his Savior and devotes himself to Him] is absolved (cleared and freed) from every charge from which he could not be justified and freed by the Law of Moses and given right standing with God.AMP

and in Him every believer is absolved from all offences, from which you could not be absolved under the Law of Moses.WNT

To absolve means:

to free from guilt or blame or their consequences: The court absolved her of guilt in his death.
2.
to set free or release, as from some duty, obligation, or responsibility (usually followed by from ): to be absolved from one's oath.
3.
to grant pardon for.
4.
Ecclesiastical .
a.
to grant or pronounce remission of sins to.
b.
to remit (a sin) by absolution.
c.
to declare (censure, as excommunication) removed.

Being Justified from all things as Per Acts 13:39 means being Justified from all the consequences of ones sins, and it means things the law of Moses in it's Leviticus priesthood with its animal sacrifices could not do ! See Heb Chp 7-10 ; And this Justification of remission of sins is solely accomplished on the death/ blood of Christ Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 9:22

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Now that Justification here in Acts 13:39 pertains to the forgiveness of sins is seen from what is said in Vs 38

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Forgiveness of sins is the negative side of Justification, but does have a positive effect, it gives the forgiven reconciliation to God even while they are enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Reconciliation is because of forgiveness, which is Justification ! This Truth also confirms Justification before Faith !8
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
God reckons it as if they died, because He died in the place and in their behalf, when He died for their sins 1 Cor 15:3
you and your surmisings :rolleyes: ... read 1 Cor 15 in the context within which it sits ...

1 Corinthians 15:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures



Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood

(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
You ignored what I posted with scripture. Explain to me what I posted with scripture.
Your dogma does not align with Scripture. Even you can't "explain" what you "posted with scripture". All you do is post a verse here and there ... then go off on a tangent and presume your surmisings are in alignment with Scripture.

I have "explained" to you "with Scripture" that your surmisings contradict Scripture.


You ignore Scripture ... to your detriment.



READ YOUR BIB
LE!!!
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This declares that the elect whom He died for are Justified solely by His death by grace.
again ...


Romans 3:

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.




context context context

Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)

If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended
(https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
You teach that there are sinners Christ died for and they remain unjust and do perish in their sins. Dont you believe that ? Be honest !
you be honest ...

I do not deny Scripture.


You, however, deny what is clearly written.



When God tells us it is His desire that the wicked turn from evil ways:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



When God tells us it is His desire to have all men saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



When God tells us that faith is not works and that we are justified by faith:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

I believe God. I do not have to manipulate Scripture ... I believe what's written.



You, on the other hand, must manipulate Scripture so you say "what God really means is _________". You can't just believe God and accept what He wrote. so sad :cry: