Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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OIC1965

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Okay, I have no problem with that verse, however I dont know if you understand it. It doesnt contradict anything I stated with scripture.
A. The passage says that All were under sin. The reason why all were under sin was because they WERE UNDER THE LAW. (See also Romans 3:19). You said we were delivered from the curse of the law before they were born. But the Bible says that we were all under sin, and declared guilty by the Law, and the Law was a schoolmaster TO BRING US TO CHRIST, so that we might be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH

B. The promise by faith is given to those who believe. SO it is given BY FAITH and given TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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reneweddaybyday said:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Okay, I have no problem with that verse, however I dont know if you understand it. It doesnt contradict anything I stated with scripture.
At Post #817 you stated

All for whom Christ died, they have been forgiven of all sins, none are even imputed to them by God.

your claim that "none [sins] are even imputed to them by God" conflicts with what God tells us in Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded
all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


see also

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Whats your point ? Because you havent made one.
At Post #847 you stated

Why are all for whom Christ died Justified before God prior to their believing the Gospel ?

your claim that the believer is "Justified before God prior to their believing the Gospel " conflicts with what God tells us in Scripture ...

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".




You also stated at Post #847

This applies to everyone Christ died for, without them doing or believing a thing.

Again ... your erroneous dogma conflicts with Scripture because (1) God so loved the world ... iow the Lord Jesus Christ died for THE WHOLE WORLD (all of mankind ... not just some subgroup your erroneous dogma proclaims); and (2) the one requirement to have everlasting life is to believe.

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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God Justifeth the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is True, but not all who are ungodly, but only for those ungodly ones Christ died for the Elect.

Rom 5:6

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

And this is True of the Ungodly that Christ died for, that they were Justified while being Ungodly, because they were Justified by Christ's Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes by nature the Elect they are just like other men, ungodly law breakers, guilty sinners,but they are made just solely by the obedience / blood of Christ Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So basically Rom 5:9 and Vs 19b teach the same thing, Justification / made Righteous solely by the obedience / blood of Christ !

By His Death alone, those He died for, have been cleared of all charges, acquitted of all accusations the Law could charge them with, hence free from all Divine Condemnation Rom 8:33-34, and all this while being Ungodly, sinners, and enemies ! 7
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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At Post #817 you stated

All for whom Christ died, they have been forgiven of all sins, none are even imputed to them by God.

your claim that "none [sins] are even imputed to them by God" conflicts with what God tells us in Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


see also

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
Those people for whom Christ died, their sins were imputed to Christ, so that being the case, Christ effectively dealt with them, put them away, so God will not impute their sins to them. Rom 4:8


Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 

OIC1965

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Those people for whom Christ died, their sins were imputed to Christ, so that being the case, Christ effectively dealt with them, put them away, so God will not impute their sins to them. Rom 4:8


Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
SEEMS to me that the theme and topic of Romans 4 is JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH. Observe. (Justification by faith mentioned SEVEN TIMES in this one chapter, numbered below)

Romans 4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (1)

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (2)

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (3)

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: (4)

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (5)

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (6)

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe (7) on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 

OIC1965

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[QUOTE="brightfame52, post: 4793218, member: 303341[/QUOTE]

Key theme of Galatians 3 is FAITH.

Galatians 3: O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (1)

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (2)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (3)

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith (4), the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith (5), preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith (6) are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (7)

12 And the law is not of faith (8): but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (9)

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith (10) of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came (11), we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (12)

25 But after that faith is come (13), we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith (14) in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 

OIC1965

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Scorecard (how many times mentioned)

Romans 4

jusified by faith 7
justified before birth 0


Galatians 3

Faith 14
Justified before birth 0
 
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Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is True, but
just stop at "this is true" ... leave your "but" out of it (along with all the rest of your erroneous dogma).

justification is available to all the ungodly (the WHOLE WORLD). Romans 4:5 clarifies that those who believe on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.




brightfame52 said:
they were Justified while being Ungodly
that statement conflicts with what is written in Scripture:

Romans

4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ




brightfame52 said:
So basically Rom 5:9 and Vs 19b teach the same thing, Justification / made Righteous solely by the obedience / blood of Christ !
God expects us to remember what we have previously read in Scripture. Read Rom 5:9 and Vs 19b while keeping in mind what you read in Romans 3:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

and Romans 3:22 aligns with Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.
 

presidente

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I like that phrase, justifieth the ungodly.

Hebrews talks about Old Testament saints and their faith, but has another nice phrase, 'the spirits of just men made perfect.'

Think about that. He justifies us when we are ungodly. Then he takes those who are just and makes them perfect.

(The concept of perfect has to do with completion, maybe maturity in some contexts. I don't want to imply all of the theological concepts of recent centuries. )
 

Pilgrimshope

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If faith is a gift of God, why do you argue as if you think it is a work that we produce?!!
simply hearing the gospel for what it is offers the gift

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‬‬
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31, 33-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith comes from hearing the gospel Jesus preached and your right it’s a free gift for every believer but to believe we first have to accept his word as it is Gods everlasting word of life
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Those people for whom Christ died
The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... the whole world

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




brightfame52 said:
God will not impute their sins to them. Rom 4:8

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
context context context

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [NOTE: this verse makes clear that faith is NOT works]

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works [righteousness without works = faith / believing - vs 5]

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [NOTE: this verse does not say sins were never imputed ... the verse says iniquities are forgiven and sins are covered ]

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [according to vs 5, righteousness is imputed when a person believes]


I have gone over Romans 4:8 with you before, brightfame52 (here)

Psalm 32:

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.


According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:


5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.


What is written in Romans 4 aligns with what is written in Psalm 32. When a person turns to the Lord, the blessing is bestowed upon him/her when they believe ... righteousness is not imputed before a person believes.
.
 

OIC1965

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simply hearing the gospel for what it is offers the gift

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‬‬
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31, 33-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith comes from hearing the gospel Jesus preached and your right it’s a free gift for every believer but to believe we first have to accept his word as it is Gods everlasting word of life
Ephesians 2:8 neuter pronoun comprehends everything in verse 8 as a gift.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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simply hearing the gospel for what it is offers the gift

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‬‬
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31, 33-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith comes from hearing the gospel Jesus preached and your right it’s a free gift for every believer but to believe we first have to accept his word as it is Gods everlasting word of life
The Gospel, (not our faith), is the power of God unto salvation. Faith is included in the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Justification by Grace Alone !

Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its this Truth, not Justification by Faith alone, but Justification by Grace alone that is the foundation of the Gospel Preaching. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

That word freely means undeservedly, and not until this Truth is testified to faithfully, no Gospel of God's Grace has been preached and believed.

Yes being freely Justified by His Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7, apart from anything done by the sinner, not his faith, repentance, accepting a gift, nothing done or determined by man !
 

brightfame52

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just stop at "this is true" ... leave your "but" out of it (along with all the rest of your erroneous dogma).

justification is available to all the ungodly (the WHOLE WORLD). Romans 4:5 clarifies that those who believe on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.





that statement conflicts with what is written in Scripture:

Romans

4:20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ





God expects us to remember what we have previously read in Scripture. Read Rom 5:9 and Vs 19b while keeping in mind what you read in Romans 3:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference

and Romans 3:22 aligns with Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
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I see you still have conflict with what I believe the truth of scripture is.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... the whole world

John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.





context context context

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [NOTE: this verse makes clear that faith is NOT works]

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works [righteousness without works = faith / believing - vs 5]

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [NOTE: this verse does not say sins were never imputed ... the verse says iniquities are forgiven and sins are covered ]

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [according to vs 5, righteousness is imputed when a person believes]


I have gone over Romans 4:8 with you before, brightfame52 (here)

Psalm 32:

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.


According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:


5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.


What is written in Romans 4 aligns with what is written in Psalm 32. When a person turns to the Lord, the blessing is bestowed upon him/her when they believe ... righteousness is not imputed before a person believes.
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If you dont understand post 884 I cant see how you understand being Justified while ungodly . Thats what Abraham and others believed, that God Justified them while being ungodly.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Justification by Grace Alone !

Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
read the next verse, brightfame52

Titus 3:

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.




brightfame52 said:
Its this Truth, not Justification by Faith alone, but Justification by Grace alone that is the foundation of the Gospel Preaching. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
again ... keep reading, brightfame53

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.




brightfame52 said:
Yes being freely Justified ... apart from anything done by the sinner, not his faith, repentance, accepting a gift, nothing done or determined by man !
Why do you continue to insist that when a person believes, they are not justified by grace? ... or that faith / believing somehow negates God's grace ?

God is very specific in telling us that faith/believing is essential, notwithstanding your obvious contempt concerning faith/believing ...

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The words "confess" in vs 9 and the "confession" in vs 10 are translated from the Greek word homologeō which means to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with.

When we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, we are agreeing with what we have heard from Scripture. So when we tell someone the gospel, it is important that we speak what is in God's Word concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation. Otherwise, someone may "agree" with us, but if we're mouthing doctrines of men, that person may not be born again, not because they don't want to believe, but because we have misrepresented the gospel ... it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation ...

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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Mar 23, 2016
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If you dont understand post 884 I cant see how you understand being Justified while ungodly .
I understand your post 884 and I understand God's Word concerning justification of the ungodly.

I do not agree with you that the ungodly are justified apart from faith. That is your premise (i.e. that the ungodly are justified before they believe) and I disagree with that because Scripture plainly states that a person is justified by faith.

I agree that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the ungodly ... all mankind.

Christ having died for the ungodly does not justify the ungodly. The ungodly are justified when they believe God's Word Therefore being justified by faith (Rom 5:1).

And keep in mind that it is not the faith of the one who believes which justifies the believer ... it is the object of the believer's faith which brings justification which is why faith is not works ... because it is in Whom faith is placed ... the Whom justifies ... not the faith of the one who believes.




brightfame52 said:
Thats what Abraham and others believed, that God Justified them while being ungodly.
Let's see what Abraham believed:

Genesis 15:

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

Abraham believed what God told him ... that he would have a child and that his descendants would be innumerable.

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brightfame52

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Christ resurrection declares Justification !

The Lord Jesus Christ in His Resurrection from the dead declares those He died for Justified before they themselves believe. Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

25 Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].AMP

25 Jesus was ·given to die [handed/delivered over; 8:32] ·for [because of] our ·sins [violations; transgressions], and he was raised from the dead ·to make us right with God [for our justification; or to confirm our justification].EXB

Now the Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of His Church which is comprised of both OT and NT Believers, the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29, He was made to be sin for them, or was delivered for their offences, and punished for them to complete satisfaction of Divine Justice, then as He arose from the dead, it [The Resurrection] declared them Justified and it is finished and accomplished for them. He Himself was Justified from all sin [That had been laid upon Him] and so they as His Body, He as their Head, were also Justified in Him Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.


But with the Lord’s help, the ·people [descendants; offspring; seed] of Israel
will be ·found to be good [justified; vindicated; or victorious],
and they will ·praise [boast/glory in] him.EXB

Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified,.... All the spiritual Israel of God, whether Jews or Gentiles; all the spiritual seed and offspring of Christ, to whom he stands in the relation of the, everlasting Father and federal Head; these being given to him, and being in him, are justified in him from all things; and these, all and everyone, shall be brought to see their need of his righteousness, and look to him for it, and receive it from him by faith; and be manifestatively justified in their own consciences, as they will be openly at the bar of God, before angels and men, hereafter. The Targum is,

""in" or by the Word of the Lord all the seed of Israel shall be justified:'

and shall glory; in Christ, as the Lord their righteousness; not in themselves, in their own righteousness, holiness, wisdom, and strength, but in this, that Christ is made to them wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, 1 Corinthians 1:30.
John Gill
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