Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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Mar 23, 2016
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reneweddaybyday said:
Do you know the Lord Jesus Christ???
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Do you know Him?
evasive non-answer ... why won't you answer the simple question? Do you know the Lord Jesus Christ?

John 14:

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
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Mar 12, 2022
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why won't you answer the simple question?
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

I can't witness about myself, but the Word witnesses for me, that we must keep His commandments, love Him and be loved by Him:
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:5 is a record of the Lord speaking to Isaac.

Genesis 15:6 is the verse at issue:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it [Abraham's faith] to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 is reiterated at Romans 4:3:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith]
was counted unto him for righteousness.
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Mar 23, 2016
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I can't witness about myself
:rolleyes: you sure don't have any problem "witnessing" about how you keep the law ... but when it comes to the weightier matter of whether you know the Lord Jesus Christ, nothing but crickets ... speaks volumes about you, DanielLL

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
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Mar 12, 2022
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Abraham belived God, True Faith, that is, with all the works:

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
"witnessing" about how you keep the law
I never stated that I keep the Law, what I was stating was that you must keep His commandments in order to be Justified and I always back it up with the witness of the Word:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
 
O

Oblio

Guest
Daniel says he's unsure of his spiritual status. I've noticed that there are a few new members that go on about the knowledge of good and evil.
I've encountered people from various cults that join these type of forums, sometimes to lure people away, I've witnessed it happen, or perhaps just to mess with us. Gnostics also come around.
I try to reason with them, usually get nowhere, and put them on ignore. Staff can deal with them if they want.
 
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At least Im discussing Scripture, Im not discussing your spiritual status, that is ad hominems. If you disagree you should present your case with Scripture, leave my person out of the discussion, please.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Again, these are words God spoke to Isaac concerning Abraham and God did not state that Abraham was justified because Abraham obeyed God's voice ... kept God's charge, commandments, statutes, laws.

Read the text:

Genesis 26:

2 And the LORD appeared unto him [Isaac], and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Because Abraham obeyed God, Abraham was blessed with land (all these countries - vs 3).


However, as far as God having imputed righteousness to Abraham ... that was because of Abraham's faith:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it [Abraham's faith] to him [Abraham] for righteousness.


No flesh is justified through the law:

Romans 3:

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God




I never stated that I keep the Law
:rolleyes: a difference without a distinction ... here are a few comments you made in this thread over the last couple of days (quotes = DanielLL / red/bold = reneweddaybyday):


Yes you have to keep the whole Law

King David keeping the whole Law, if he can do it, so can we

If you believe you keep the law, that is the only thing that seperates us from the faith of devils, because the devils also believe and they are not justified. You have to be better than the devils and keep the law.
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O

Oblio

Guest
At least Im discussing Scripture, Im not discussing your spiritual status, that is ad hominems. If you disagree you should present your case with Scripture, leave my person out of the discussion, please.[/QUOTE
I'm part of the body of Christ. You are not. Why are you here? Are you part of a cult or the occult?
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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The Justified/Righteous World of 2 Cor 5:19 !

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The World of 2 Cor 5:19 is a Justified World ! Now why is this True ? Because they must be already, [in the reckoning of God] declared Righteous or Just in order for God not to impute or charge sin upon them, For God will not in no wise clear the guilty Ex 34:7

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Now that word clear is the hebrew word naqah and means:

) to be empty, be clear, be pure, be free, be innocent, be desolate, be cut off

a) (Qal) to be empty, be clean, be pure

b) (Niphal)

1) to be cleaned out, be purged out

2) to be clean, be free from guilt, be innocent

3) to be free, be exempt from punishment

4) to be free, be exempt from obligation

c) (Piel)

1) to hold innocent, acquit

2) to leave unpunished

It also means acquit as here Job 10:14; Nahum 1:3

3 The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

But non imputation of sin is acquittal . The Non Imputation of Trespasses = the forgiveness of them Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Yes, those are the same trespasses that God did not lay to their charge 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So those God does not charge with sin, cannot be in His estimation guilty of sin, but on the contrary He must see them as Righteous. In other words, non imputation of sin presupposes Imputation of Righteousness,and so its demonstrated here in the Gospel of Romans 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Thats what 2 Cor 5:19 is about, men of that world to whom the Lord will not impute sin or trespasses.

Here it is clearly stated, God accounting one Righteous apart from works [anything they did] is the foundation for His forgiveness and pardon of sin, and He will not impute it or charge it against them legally.

They are not imputed because they are forgiven, because they were afore Righteous.

Now how is this ? Its because they were chosen in Jesus Christ the Righteous before the foundation Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

See 1 Jn 2:1 !


They already before the foundation had Christ's Righteousness imputed or charged to them, being in Him by Election.

So their trespasses in time beginning in Adam and also their own, were not charged to them, not imputed to them. It began with Adam Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

That word offence in the original is the very same word for trespass and the same word in Col 2:13 were all trespasses have been forgiven ! That includes the very first one in Adam, it was not charged or imputed to them legally, being in Christ already !

In Election God put them in Christ 1 Cor 1:30

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And being in Him, God already made Him unto them Righteousness !

So it is, the Elect World in Christ, that sinned or trespassed in Adam, God does not impute their trespasses unto them. Thats why Paul says right before 2 Cor 5:19,He writes this 2 Cor 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Being in Christ began for them before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Grace reigned to the Elect because of Christ's Righteousness, which was also Imputed to them in Him by Election !

With that in Mind, we know that #1 The world in 2 Cor 5:19 cannot possible be all mankind without exception, and #2, Believers are Justified or declared Righteous before God before they believe, in fact before they are even born sinners. 7
 
Mar 12, 2022
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Are you saying God will turn a "blind eye" to those whom He wishes? - This is Pervesion of Justice. Justice must be equal to all.

That a Murderer will "not be charged with murder" because God will not charge him? - I can guarantee you, the accuser will charge him with murder, Jesus is an advocate and the Father is Perfect Judge. So, because of the Perfect Judgement of the Father, He can't pervert justice, so the only way the murderer will be forgiven, is if he repents, confesses and forsakes his sin. Same as everyone else.
Imputation of Righteousness
You who say this do not know what is free-will, and how it is possible to be really good; that he who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice.
Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Abraham was justified by True Faith.
just read the Word as written ... no need to change anything to meet a criteria of man's own reasoning.

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it [Abraham's faith] to him [Abraham] for righteousness.




DanielLL said:
Because He was Righteous and kept the Law of God.
Abraham was righteous because God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness.

Again, Abraham keeping the law did not cause God to count Abraham as righteous.




DanielLL said:
By dead faith shall no flesh be justified.
again, just read the Word as written ... no need to change anything:

Romans 3:20 KJV - 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight ...

Galatians 2:16 KJV - 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

God does not need any help in setting forth His Truth ... mankind is justified by faith in Messiah (the Lord Jesus Christ).
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Mar 23, 2016
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Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Yes, those are the same trespasses that God did not lay to their charge
If trespasses are not laid "to their charge", there would be no need for forgiveness. Clearly, at some point trespasses were laid "to their charge".




brightfame52 said:
So their trespasses in time beginning in Adam and also their own, were not charged to them, not imputed to them.
brightfame52, you need to put aside your erroneous dogma and READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

At one point in the past, all born again ones were "servants of sin" and that sin was "charged to them". At the moment the born again one is justified by faith, that is when sin is removed, sins committed in the past are covered. After we are born again, we are instructed:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And please read 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.




brightfame52 said:
Believers are Justified or declared Righteous before God before they believe, in fact before they are even born sinners.
:rolleyes: nope ... more erroneous dogma you need to rid yourself of ...

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Are you saying God will turn a "blind eye" to those whom He wishes? - This is Pervesion of Justice. Justice must be equal to all.

That a Murderer will "not be charged with murder" because God will not charge him? - I can guarantee you, the accuser will charge him with murder, Jesus is an advocate and the Father is Perfect Judge. So, because of the Perfect Judgement of the Father, He can't pervert justice, so the only way the murderer will be forgiven, is if he repents, confesses and forsakes his sin. Same as everyone else.


You who say this do not know what is free-will, and how it is possible to be really good; that he who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice.


Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
I dont know what you saying, its incoherent.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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If trespasses are not laid "to their charge", there would be no need for forgiveness. Clearly, at some point trespasses were laid "to their charge".





brightfame52, you need to put aside your erroneous dogma and READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

At one point in the past, all born again ones were "servants of sin" and that sin was "charged to them". At the moment the born again one is justified by faith, that is when sin is removed, sins committed in the past are covered. After we are born again, we are instructed:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And please read 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.





:rolleyes: nope ... more erroneous dogma you need to rid yourself of ...

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.
Their trespasses were laid to the charge of Christ and by His death for them, they are forgiven Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins
 
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just read the Word as written ... no need to change anything to meet a criteria of man's own reasoning.
You are the one changing it to dead faith, because the only way Abraham was justified was by true faith if you take the rest of the Word in consideration:

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Abraham keeping the law did not cause God to count Abraham as righteous.
Yes, it did. Works of Obedience and true faith is what made Abraham righteous and able to be justified:

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

If Abraham had dead faith he couldn't have been justified when he did. The fact that he was justified means he was righteous.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Their trespasses were laid to the charge of Christ
not before they believe ... and certainly not before they were physically born as you erroneously claim ...

brightfame52 said:
Believers are Justified or declared Righteous before God before they believe, in fact before they are even born
Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".
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Mar 23, 2016
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You are the one changing it to dead faith
nope ... just trying to get you to stick to what's written in Scripture.




DanielLL said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Abraham keeping the law did not cause God to count Abraham as righteous.
Yes, it did.
read the text again:

Genesis 15:

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him [Abraham], saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he [God] brought him [Abraham] forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it [Abraham's faith] to him [Abraham] for righteousness.


Abraham believed God and God counted Abraham's faith to Abraham as righteousness.

There is no commandment in these verses ... only a Word from God that Abraham shall have a child and that Abraham's progeny would be innumerable. This promise was given to Abraham when he was at least 75 years old and before he was 86 (Abraham was 75 when he left Haran - Gen 12:4 ... and he was 86 when Ishmael was born - Gen 16:16).
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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not before they believe ... and certainly not before they were physically born as you erroneously claim ...



Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".
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Of course it was before they believed. How could have Christ had died if sins were not charged to Him 2 Cor 5:21