Who's Lying? God? Or Man?

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Eccl12and13

Guest
#1
So….did God lie when He said that He would either bless the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel and her seed if they kept His laws or curse them if they did not when they went into a covenant with Him? It should be something that should be easy to find out seeing we have the history of the 12 tribes recorded in the bible.


Blessings and Curses

Let’s read some of the conditions of the covenant that was made with the 12 tribes of Israel;

Deut.28
[1] And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
[2] And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

God told the 12 tribes if they simply kept His laws they would be blessed. And not simply blessed, but they would be blessed above ALL of the nations of the world.

God also gave us a way to identify Israel; by seeing the blessing of the Lord upon the 12 tribes the nations of the world would know these people are God’s chosen. The whole world would know who are the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel. Let’s read it….

Deut.28
[10] And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.

So the blessings of God upon the nation of Israel was to be used let the other nations of the world know just who these people are. God’s word tells us that, “…all the people of the earth…” shall know who the 12 tribes are based upon the blessings of God. This was God’s sign to let the world know who was Israel.

But didn’t God also tell us another way to identify the 12 tribes of Israel? Didn’t God say He would provide another sign letting the world know who’s Israel?

Didn’t God say that He would curse the nation of Israel, ALL 12 TRIBES, if they did not keep His laws?

Deut.28
[15] But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

And didn’t God say that not only would these curses be upon the nation of Israel that lived at that time, but they would also be upon her seed forever?

Deut.28
[46] And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

And didn’t God tell us that these curses would also be used as a sign by the seed of the nation of Israel AND the nations of the world to identify just who the true nation of Israel are?

Deut.28
[45] Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
[46] And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

 
Deut.29
[22] So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
[24] Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
[25] Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
[26] For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
[27] And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
[28] And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

God offered both blessings and curses to the 12 tribes of Israel. God said if they kept their end of the bargin He would bless ALL 12 tribes, but if they did not keep His laws He would curse ALL 12 tribes. Notice that God made NO provisions to bless some of the tribes and not others, or that some of the blessings would be bestowed to some of the 12 while others would be cursed. God said that either ALL 12 tribes would be blessed or ALL 12 tribes would be cursed, based upon whether or not they kept their end of the covenant;

“Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel.” Deut.29:9-10

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” Deut.30:19

God gave the world 2 ways by which to identify the 12 tribes of Israel; the earth could tell who the 12 tribes are by either the blessings or curses bestowed upon them, based upon whether or not they kept God’s covenant.

So……let’s find what the nation of Israel decided to do! Let’s find if they kept God’s laws or did they break them. And by doing so we will find out what signs to look for when identifying the true nation of Israel; blessings or curses.
 

Did Israel Keep or Break God’s laws?

Let’s find if the 12 tribes of Israel kept God’s laws which would have resulted in blessings or broke God’s laws resulting in curses.

Jer.3
[6] The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
[7] And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
[8] And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9] And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10] And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
[11] And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

So we know that not only did the nation of Israel disobey God, they did so to the point that God gave them a ‘…bill of divorce…’. Let’s read what their condition was 70 years later in the book of Daniel.

Dan.9
[2] In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
[3] And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
[4] And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
[5] We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

So it seems that the promise of 70 years of desolation issued by God for not keeping His laws came to past. Above we find Daniel praying to God and asking what is going to happen to the nation of Israel now that the 70 years was coming to an end. Let’s continue and read what is their current state…

Dan.9
[9] To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
[10] Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
[11] Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
[12] And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
[13] As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
[14] Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
[15] And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

So even during the time of Daniel we find that the 12 tribes still have not kept their part of the covenant and the curses are YET upon them. Let’s read if their situation changed during the time of Christ.

Matt.10
[1] And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,
Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt.15
[24] But he answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now does Christ mean that the 12 tribes are actually ‘lost’ and that there is no knowledge of their whereabouts? No! For as we know Paul not only knew that he was an Israelite, but he also knew to which of the 12 tribes he belonged, “Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews…”.

What Christ is saying is that the lost sheep of the house of Israel is still divorced from God because of their not keeping the agreement of the covenant. They are lost spiritually because they are still not keeping the commandments of the Lord and they are lost literally, scattered abroad, within the land of their enemies
 


So Who’s Lying?

So it appears that God did NOT lie concerning the curses that would overtake the 12 tribes of Israel for not keeping the covenant. For we have just read that throughout most of the OT and even into the NT the nation of Israel did not keep the commandments of God, thus they were given all of the curses that God said He would put upon them.

Now we know those curses were upon the nation even after the books of the NT for as we know in 70ad the remaining Israelites were scattered into all of the parts of the earth.

Again….God did not lie! And if God did not lie that means the curses of God are STILL upon the seed of ALL 12 tribes of the nation of Israel. Why? Because the marrage of the Lamb has not taken place yet. Let’s read….

Jer.3
[14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
[15] And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
[16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
[17] At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
[18] In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

And how do we know the above marriage has not happened? Because ALL nations have not been gathered unto the throne of the Lord in Jerusalem! Because ALL nations are still walking after the imaginations of their own hearts! Because BOTH houses of Israel, Judah AND Israel, have not been gathered together unto the land that was promised to their fathers. Just as both blessings and curses was to be given to ALL 12 tribes, so will God gather ALL 12 tribes for the marriage!

So if God did not lie and the curses, NOT blessings, are yet upon the seed of ALL 12 tribes of Israel, that can only mean one thing;

Rev.2
[9]
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev.3
[9]
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

God said just as the blessings would be used by all the world to identify the 12 tribes, so would the curses be used by all nations as a sign identifying who the 12 tribes are;

Deut.28
[45] Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
[46] And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
 

Deut.29
[22] So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
[24] Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
[25] Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
[26] For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
[27] And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
[28] And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

And we know from reading God's word that the 12 tribes did NOT keep the commandments of God. So that means that the seed of the 12 tribes to this day must still have the curses that God said would be upon them.

If the people that claim to be of the nation of Israel do not have the identifying signs that God said would be used to tell who’s a true Israelites then……..

Who’s lying?

God? Or those that call themselves Jews!

Let's read it again.....

Rev.2
[9]
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev.3
[9]
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.




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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
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#2
Not so fast...

Jeremiah 31:31-37 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#3
Not so fast...

Jeremiah 31:31-37 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Not sure where you are going with your post.

God's word tells us that the sign of the curses that are upon the 12 tribes of Israel are to be used to identify them if they did not keep His commandments.

We know that Israel did not keep God's laws, which is why He gave them a bill of divorcement.

Those that occupy the land today do not have the signs that God said would be upon the nation of Israel and her seed for not keeping His laws.

Which is why I asked the question;

Who's lying? God? Or those that call themselves Jews?

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
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#4
Which covenant are you referring to? The unconditional Abrahamic or the conditional Mosaic?
Who do you think are in Israel? Pigmys?
Who do you think Hitler roasted and gassed? Fake Jews? Of course those that returned to Israel were Jews.
I posted Scripture that showed the promise would be fulfilled.
Ditto,I'm not sure where you are going with this.
 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#5
Which covenant are you referring to? The unconditional Abrahamic or the conditional Mosaic?
Who do you think are in Israel? Pigmys?
Who do you think Hitler roasted and gassed? Fake Jews? Of course those that returned to Israel were Jews.
I posted Scripture that showed the promise would be fulfilled.
Ditto,I'm not sure where you are going with this.

I must ask, "Did you read the entire post?" I was very specific with which covenant God made that would result in blessings for keeping His laws or curses for breaking them. But here it is again;

“Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel.” Deut.29:9-10

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” Deut.30:19


Next you asked,

Who do you think are in Israel? Pigmys?
Well....let's again go over the topic of the post.

God gave the world 2 signs that would identify the true Israelites. They would either be blessed above ALL the nations of the world, or cursed with specific curses. It was to be one or the other, NEVER both. And the blessings or curses was predicated on the 12 tribes keeping or breaking God's laws.

Next we found that the 12 tribes did NOT keep God's laws, thus the sign that was to be for the entire world to look for are curses.....NOT blessings. The true Israelites of the bible AND her seed have the curses of God even until this day.

Do those that claim to be Jews and live is Israel today have the curses of God upon them? No! Let's read some of those curses that God said would be upon the seed of the 12 tribes;

1. God said Israel would be a weak nation!

Deut.28:25
[25] thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them:
[44] he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

The people that occupy the land today are NOT a weak nation. They even have WMD's!

2. God said Israel would be borrowers and NOT lenders of money!

Deut.28:44
[44] He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him.

The people that call themselves Jews loan money, sell goods and services, not only to individuals but to other countries!

3. God’s word says that wherever Israel finds herself, in whatever nation, it will not be good for her!

Deut.28
[16] Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
[17] Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
[18] Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
[19] Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
[20] The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Well...those that call themselves Jews do well and prosper in most of the countries they migrate to!

4. God said He would scatter Israel! They would NOT have a choice in the matter!

"And I will scatter you among the heathen" Lev.26:33
"I will scatter them also among the heathen" Jer.9:16
"I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy" Jer.18:17
“The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.” Deut.28:25
"when they be in the land of their enemies" Lev.26:44
"and disperse thee in the countries" Ezek.22:15

Where those that claim to be Jews forced to live in the countries that they occupy or did they migrate?

5. God tells us that the seed of Israel will be given to another people.

Deut.28
[32] Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.”
[41] Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.”


6. God tells us that He will bring the Nation of Israel to a place and have a kings set over them, and in that nation will they serve gods of wood and stone.

Deut.28
[36] The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.”

Do not those that live in the land to this day serve God? Are they not in the process of rebuilding the temple?

7. God said Israel would occupy prisons!

Isa.42
[22] But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses

What percentage of those that claim to be Jews are snared in prisons?


The people in the land of Jerusalem today are a strong nation with a strong and powerful army. They lend money, goods and services to other nations. They have migrated to many parts of the earth, established banks and built synagogue's. Their son's and daughters have not been taken away and given to another nation. Their percentages that occupy prisons are so low there is hardly a number for them. They live in their own land, farm their own fields and reap the rewards thereof.

Does this sound like a nation of people that are cursed?

Do I believe Pigmy's live in Israel? No! And based upon the curses that God's world said would be upon the true Israelites, nor do I believe the Jews of the bible live there either.


You said you posted scriptures about a promise being fullfilled. Well let's look at that promise and read just when it will be accomplished;

Jer.31
[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So the day is coming when God will make a new covenant with ALL 12 tribes of the nation of Israel. Let's continue to see if this has taken place yet or is it an event that will happen sometime in the future...

Jer.31
[34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So....has the day come where the 12 tribes have taught ALL men, from the least to the greatest about the Lord? Do ALL men know the Lord today as it says it will be above when the covenant is made? Has this time arrived?

Sadly...No!

The promise was made...but the time for the promise to be fulfilled has yet to arrive.


God's word tells us that ALL 12 tribes and her seed to follow would be cursed if they did not keep His commandments and laws.

They did not keep God's laws, therefore they have the curses and not blessing upon them.

Again....let's read the words of God;

Rev.2
[9]
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev.3
[9]
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Who Is Jesus giving us a warning about?
Who are those that call themselves Jews but do lie?

We know the signs to look for to identify the true Israelites; the curses!

Do those that claim to be Jews have all of the curses that God said would be used as a sign upon them?
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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#6
Ok you are referring to the Mosaic temporary conditional covenant. I was referring to the permanent Abrahamic unconditional covenant based on unilateral promises.The former has passed but not the latter.
 
Last edited:
Mar 15, 2013
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#7
"<G9999> (an inserted English word) This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text here. The word may be displayed in italics, in parentheses, or in brackets to indicate that it is NOT in the original text."

Romans 11:32 For <G1063> God <G2316> hath concluded <G4788> them <G9999> all <G3956> in <G1519> unbelief <G0543>, that <G2443> he might have mercy <G1653> upon all <G3956>.

Romans 11:32 For <G1063> God <G2316> hath concluded <G4788> all <G3956> in <G1519> unbelief <G0543>, that <G2443> he might have mercy <G1653> upon all <G3956>.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Many see only what they wish to see.

They are stuck in the flesh and can not do anything but seek glory for the flesh.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,029
107
63
#8
Not sure where you are going with your post.

God's word tells us that the sign of the curses that are upon the 12 tribes of Israel are to be used to identify them if they did not keep His commandments.

We know that Israel did not keep God's laws, which is why He gave them a bill of divorcement.

Those that occupy the land today do not have the signs that God said would be upon the nation of Israel and her seed for not keeping His laws.

Which is why I asked the question;

Who's lying? God? Or those that call themselves Jews?

.
Romans 3:4Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.”
 
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
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#9
1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 
E

Eccl12and13

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#10
God clearly gave the world a way by which to tell who the true seed of the Israelites are but the world is yet deaf and blinded by those that call themselves Jews. Just because a people call themselves a certain nation does not make them so.

That is why God gave us signs so that we would not be fooled and blinded.

Jesus even gave us a warning in the last book of the bible;

Rev.2
[9]
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev.3
[9]
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Why does the entire world acknowledge a people as God's chosen when they have NONE of the curses that God said would be upon them for not keeping His laws and commandments?

If you have God's chosen people wrong, then what else is the world wrong about concerning the word of God?

.
 
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#11
Ok you are referring to the Mosaic temporary conditional covenant. I was referring to the permanent Abrahamic unconditional covenant based on unilateral promises.The former has passed but not the latter.
I cannot determine whether I agree with you or not as I am unsure whether you are speaking with the realization that all of the promises given to Abraham were given to his right spirit of faith or if you think they were given to his flesh which was nothing more than Adam's flesh and which died with Adam?
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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#12
I cannot determine whether I agree with you or not as I am unsure whether you are speaking with the realization that all of the promises given to Abraham were given to his right spirit of faith or if you think they were given to his flesh which was nothing more than Adam's flesh and which died with Adam?
The promises were given not by works which the other poster doesn't seem to understand but by promise. And the promise went from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob and Israel's seed not to the child begotton by the flesh/man's works i.e. Ishmael. Those promises aren't conditioned by Israel's obedience but by God's faithfulness.
Referring to the passage 'those who call themselves Jews but are not' can equally be applied to those who hold to replacement theology...since they claim the church has replaced Israel, and they are now the new Jews...but they are not.
 
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#13
The promises were given not by works which the other poster doesn't seem to understand but by promise. And the promise went from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob and Israel's seed not to the child begotton by the flesh/man's works i.e. Ishmael. Those promises aren't conditioned by Israel's obedience but by God's faithfulness.
Referring to the passage 'those who call themselves Jews but are not' can equally be applied to those who hold to replacement theology...since they claim the church has replaced Israel, and they are now the new Jews...but they are not.
OK, but you are not really answering my question. Unless I am forced to assume that you mean those promises were made to the flesh that is passed by the flesh of those who received those promises, which if you do mean that, then I must respectfully disagree.

All flesh died in Adam. Since Adam, God has only respected a right spirit of faith toward him. And those promises were not given to Abraham's, Isaac's, or Jacob's body of flesh so that they could be passed by fleshly birth, but instead they were given to the spirit of a right faith, independent of spiritually dead human flesh.

Anything not holy can only be spiritually dead. Even the Law demonstrates that.

The only reason that God used the flesh to pass what appeared to be that promise being passed through that flesh was to have a clear way for all to be able to identify the one with the true right to those promises when he would arrive.

And that has been confused as proof that the promises did belong to the flesh, but the reality is that they never did. They couldn't.

All flesh died in Adam in the spiritual sense. All flesh corrupted it's way. No flesh is holy and anything not holy, even by that Old Law, is declared to be spiritually dead. God allowed that failure of Israel to keep that Old Law Covenant to demonstrate that spiritually dead state by law, exposing it by law, that the sin in that spiritually dead flesh would be shown to have full right to kill that flesh and God proved just.

Thus all would be proved dead and God's grace could then step in for all, both for the Jews and and for the Gentiles.
 
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crossnote

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#14
Flesh means by human effort as when Abraham had Ishmael thru Hagar.
Promise means God keeps His word (Isaac was still born to Sarah despite Abraham's half truths.
 
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#15
Flesh means by human effort as when Abraham had Ishmael thru Hagar.
Promise means God keeps His word (Isaac was still born to Sarah despite Abraham's half truths.
You are rationalizing the truth away.

Human birth passes human flesh. That flesh was unholy and dead since Adam, and thus as God cannot reward that which is unholy, unholiness having no place in his presence, then God looked to find a modicum of faith in man, by a right spirit in each man which he could declare clean and able to be rewarded.
 

crossnote

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#16
You are rationalizing the truth away.

Human birth passes human flesh. That flesh was unholy and dead since Adam, and thus as God cannot reward that which is unholy, unholiness having no place in his presence, then God looked to find a modicum of faith in man, by a right spirit in each man which he could declare clean and able to be rewarded.
Abraham lived in a land of idol worshippers and there is no reason to believe he did otherwise until God revealed Himself to Abraham. Where do you get this term 'right spirit of faith'?
I get my example of Abraham acting in the flesh vs by promise in Galatians 4:22-31
So I am not rationalizing truth away but neither am I making it up.
 
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Abraham lived in a land of idol worshippers and there is no reason to believe he did otherwise until God revealed Himself to Abraham. Where do you get this term 'right spirit of faith'?
I get my example of Abraham acting in the flesh vs by promise in Galatians 4:22-31
So I am not rationalizing truth away but neither am I making it up.
It does not work that way and it never did for anyone.

Genesis 6:8 ".. Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Noah did not find that by being like those around him but unlike them. Noah believed in God and a world of unrighteousness around him was unable to take the right spirit of faith away from him.

Genesis 4:4 "And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering." A spirit of a right faith in God is what Able had but Cain did not.

Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."


Genesis 12:1 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came."


You sir have no shame and make up what ever suites your need to make yourself look right.

All we are told prior to that says nothing about Abraham also being an idol worshiper and you sir ought to be ashamed of your evil assumptions.

For him to have been would defy the pattern from Abel forward which we have been shown for good reason.

How dare you mislead the innocent into following your personal assumptions.
 

crossnote

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#18
Touchy aren't we. So you are placing grace as a result of merit, as you have said,

''as God cannot reward that which is unholy, unholiness having no place in his presence, then God looked to find a modicum of faith in man, by a right spirit in each man which he could declare clean and able to be rewarded.''

this is not grace. Noah found grace in God's sight, meaning that there was NOTHING deserving in Noah but it was the good pleasure of God to choose the undeserving.
Saul, the great persecutor of the church, had no 'right spirit' in him when God knocked him to the ground and transformed Him into the apostle Paul...all out of sheer grace.
I have no reason to believe it was different with Abraham...pure grace with no inherent goodness on his part.
 
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Touchy aren't we. So you are placing grace as a result of merit, as you have said,

''as God cannot reward that which is unholy, unholiness having no place in his presence, then God looked to find a modicum of faith in man, by a right spirit in each man which he could declare clean and able to be rewarded.''

this is not grace. Noah found grace in God's sight, meaning that there was NOTHING deserving in Noah but it was the good pleasure of God to choose the undeserving.
Saul, the great persecutor of the church, had no 'right spirit' in him when God knocked him to the ground and transformed Him into the apostle Paul...all out of sheer grace.
I have no reason to believe it was different with Abraham...pure grace with no inherent goodness on his part.
More personal opinion based in not really knowing what God is looking for. you are a stubborn man that ignores much scripture to hold onto your stubborn opinions.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

And when he finds faith he blesses it with giving yet more.

Look at how Jesus went about it. He did just like his father.

Matthew 8:10 "When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."

Get it? Jesus looked for that faith to bless.

You say, "So you are placing grace as a result of merit, as you have said,

''as God cannot reward that which is unholy, unholiness having no place in his presence, then God looked to find a modicum of faith in man, by a right spirit in each man which he could declare clean and able to be rewarded.''

I did not invent that. That is what God says, "You must be holy as I am holy."

No amount of false doctrine has any right to dismiss that.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#20
More personal opinion based in not really knowing what God is looking for. you are a stubborn man that ignores much scripture to hold onto your stubborn opinions.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

And when he finds faith he blesses it with giving yet more.

Look at how Jesus went about it. He did just like his father.

Matthew 8:10 "When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."

Get it? Jesus looked for that faith to bless.

You say, "So you are placing grace as a result of merit, as you have said,

''as God cannot reward that which is unholy, unholiness having no place in his presence, then God looked to find a modicum of faith in man, by a right spirit in each man which he could declare clean and able to be rewarded.''

I did not invent that. That is what God says, "You must be holy as I am holy."

No amount of false doctrine has any right to dismiss that.
Holiness comes after God picks up an undeserving sinner out of the gutter of life and begins cleaning him up. Again an undeserving sinner...that is what grace is all about.
Most examples you gave were addressed to those already in the Commonwealth of Israel.
Please act like the intelligent person you try to be and stop with the ad hominems.