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beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#41
Just because you happen to be a Sabbatarian does not mean that other Christians are idolaters. What if sabbath-observance has become your idol since you refuse to accept the Lord's Day as the Christian day of worship?

Who gave the apostle John the revelation that one day of the week must be called "the Lord's Day" other than the Lord Himself? And had this been the 7th day sabbath, it would have been called "the Lord's sabbath", not "the Lord's Day". So you are really on the horns of a dilemma. If you reject what the Lord revealed to John, then no amount of sabbath observance will make up for rejecting what Christ has revealed.

Christ is called the first fruits of them that slept in 1 Cor 15:20 (as relates to His resurrection). So the Feast of First Fruits was a type of Christ's resurrection, and it was always on THE MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH. Hence the first day of the week is the Lord's Day. Just because it happens to be commonly called "Sunday" makes no difference. Christians call it "the Lord's Day".
And who are christians to decide over and above what God has decreed ? anyone can make scripture fit glibly into their own reasoning but their timing of the resurrection does not fit with Jesus' own prediction. Their sunday resurrection goes OVER time according to Yashua/Jesus and that is breaking scripture as recorded...proving sunday NOT to be 'resurrection day...however it is the day Yashua presented Himself to the Father as the Firstfruit.
It is being UNjust and False to continue in wrong assumptions when we are shown the Truth....it is not of God !
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
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#42
And who are christians to decide over and above what God has decreed ?
We can't make such decisions, but God himself decided that after Christ's resurrection Sabbath keeping would no longer be required. Paul -- Christ's spokesman -- clearly says that!
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
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#43
We can't make such decisions, but God himself decided that after Christ's resurrection Sabbath keeping would no longer be required. Paul -- Christ's spokesman -- clearly says that!
where ? where ? I must have missed it...can you give scriptiure ?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#44
where ? where ? I must have missed it...can you give scriptiure ?
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SABBATARIANS have long challenged, "Find one verse in the Bible that shows the day of worship has been changed from Sabbath to Sunday."


Well, that statement is part of building a straw man. It is not the issue. The New Testament makes that a moot point because it says it doesn't matter what day you worship on.


Romans 14:5
"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."


Galatians 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."


Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."








SABBATARIANS ASK FOR ONE TEXT IN THE BIBLE THAT COMMANDS SUNDAY WORSHIP, HERE IT IS:

LEVITICUS 23:5-11 - Look at verse 11: "'And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.'" The day after the Sabbath is Sunday.

Read on specifically looking at Leviticus 23:15 - "'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. You shall count fifty days to the DAY AFTER THE SEVENTH SABBATH; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord.'" This is the Feast of Pentecost. It was one of the compulsory feasts of Israel.
Note on the day of Pentecost, a Sunday God's people were commanded to worship. God says, "On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations." Leviticus 23:21.


If you think this is only applying to "ceremonial" days, Leviticus 23 starts out talking about the weekly Sabbath (see Lev. 23:1-4). It is called an appointed time and a holy convocation, along with all the other feast days of Israel. No distinction is made by God between these holy days and the weekly Sabbath. He includes them as being equally holy. This would mean that under the Old Covenant the First Fruits Sunday and the Pentecost Sunday were as holy and sanctified as Saturday.

If you think this only applies to Israel, that's our point. The Ten Commandment Covenant, --the Old Covenant was made with Israel, and NOT with the Gentiles.

Look at Exodus 31:13, 16 and 17: "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you....So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever;..."



References for the 9 "moral" commandments reiterated in the New Testament:

1st - Worship God - (53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

2nd - No Idolatry - (20 times) Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15


3rd - No Profanity - (4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9


5th - Honor Parents - (6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2


6th - Murder - (7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

7th - Adultery - (12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

8th - Stealing - (6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

9th - Lying - (4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

10th - Don't Covet - (9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14[/TD]
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Source:The Sabbath & Sunday
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
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#45
Paul was obviously a follower of Jesus who kept His Fathers Commandments, including the weekly Sabbath...and never changed it...regardless of all the other OT regulations every year. The Commandments are a 'separate set of laws given by God personally to the people and to which He added no more Deut 5v22.
In view of all this why would Paul then tell us to worship God any day we liked ? In Rom 14 he was simply making a statement that that is what some people did, they esteemed whatever day they wanted. This was/is in no way an instruction for us to do the same...no way....since he tells us to folloiw HIM as he followed Christ...who obviously kept the 7th day Sabbath.
Scripture also tells us to walk in HIS steps...no more needs to be said !!!
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#46
Paul was obviously a follower of Jesus who kept His Fathers Commandments, including the weekly Sabbath...and never changed it...regardless of all the other OT regulations every year. The Commandments are a 'separate set of laws given by God personally to the people and to which He added no more Deut 5v22.
In view of all this why would Paul then tell us to worship God any day we liked ? In Rom 14 he was simply making a statement that that is what some people did, they esteemed whatever day they wanted. This was/is in no way an instruction for us to do the same...no way....since he tells us to folloiw HIM as he followed Christ...who obviously kept the 7th day Sabbath.
Scripture also tells us to walk in HIS steps...no more needs to be said !!!

NEW LIGHT ON CEREMONIAL SABBATHS AND COLOSSIANS 2:16

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

• festival - yearly Sabbaths,
• a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
• or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.


When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed:

"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."


Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",
• days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)
• months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)
• seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)
• and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)


Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy day, including the Sabbath.

Source:The Sabbath & Sunday
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
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#47
where ? where ? I must have missed it...can you give scriptiure ?
Phil36 has already answered it:

Romans 14:5
"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."


Galatians 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."


Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I do not perfectly understand the verse above, but I know it doesn't mean we Christians are supposed to keep the Law. Why? Because there is not one single soul on the entire planet who keeps the 613 laws.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#48
Just be filled daily and He will come. :) We don't want to "act" without His anointing.

oh, sorry, didn't see that this thread was going to be about laws.
 
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beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
#49
Phil36 has already answered it:

Romans 14:5
"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."


Galatians 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."


Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

I do not perfectly understand the verse above, but I know it doesn't mean we Christians are supposed to keep the Law. Why? Because there is not one single soul on the entire planet who keeps the 613 laws.
The thing is that you are talking about 613 laws which consisted of ordinances/works /rituals/sacrifices/sin offerings abolished on the cross Eph 2v15; and Col 2v14;
and I am talking about the 10 Commandments...spiritual, holy just and good....loving God and neighbour eternally.
Can you see how we will never reach agreement ? What laws do you think God is writing on our heart if there aren't any to be kept ? You sound like a reasonable man one can talk to.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,429
12,913
113
#50
And who are christians to decide over and above what God has decreed?
You failed to answer my question. Who instructed the apostle John to designate one specific day in the week "the Lord's Day"? Did he simply conjure this up from his own imagination, or was a there a spiritual reason why he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day?

If you claim that the apostle John was simply spouting off human ideas, then you nullify Divine revelation. On the other hand if the Lord Jesus Christ designated one day as "the Lord's Day" and told John by the Spirit to write that down for all ages, then you are in a serious controversy with Christ. And you cannot have both Moses and Christ.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
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#51
Sorry, Beta, I have to leave now! I'll talk to you later (if God is willing)!
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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#52
Phil36 has already answered it:
Good afternoon Marcelo,

In regards to the scriptures you use to support modern church tradition of rejecting some of God's Word.


Romans 14:5
"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."


How can people use Paul's letters regarding the "Weak in Faith" as support to create their own laws, or annul a Commandments of God.

What does one man believing one thing, and another man believing another have to do with God or God's Word? Shall I reject God's Commandments because some random man doesn't believe His Words?

What are we all the be convinced of in our mind? That one man, weak in the Faith, creates our Salvation or Doctrine? Or are we to be convinced, as Paul was, that God is true and every man a liar.

Not sure how Paul's teaching regarding the weak in faith can give us the power to reject God's Word.


Galatians 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."
I have asked many times for Biblical evidence that the Jews or the Pharisees were preaching God's Commandments. Everything we have been told about them exposes the Biblical fact that they were not obeying God's Laws, but the created their own.

Jer. 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The preaching that the Jews were obeying God, then when they turned to Jesus, they stopped obeying God, and then they were "Bewitched" into "Returning again" the weak and beggarly elements of obedience to God, in foolishness.

This Galatians scripture, if taken in context, does in no way give anyone the power or permission to reject God's Word.


Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

To preach that God's Commandments, specifically His Sabbath, are against us is in direct contradiction to what Jesus instructed about His Sabbath.

Once again I am forced into choosing between what you and by extension, Mainstream Christianity preaches, and what Jesus teaches.

"The Sabbath was made by God (Jesus before becoming a man) for man".

So the Sabbath is not against us, it is not a "rudiment of the world", and it is not a "Tradition of man" regardless of what the mainstream preachers of today preach.


Therefore: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This is why God commanded "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy", because it is symbolic of something to come.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;


Like eating with unwashed hands or creating Laws that say you can't take a walk on God's Sabbath and eat a raspberry, as did the mainstream preachers of His time.

22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

So these scriptures actually support the Word of God, "Bring every thought into the obedience of Christ", they do not support mainstream Christian preaching that Jesus nailed God's Sabbath to the cross.


For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
I do not perfectly understand the verse above, but I know it doesn't mean we Christians are supposed to keep the Law. Why? Because there is not one single soul on the entire planet who keeps the 613 laws.
There are not now, nor has there ever been 613 laws required by God for the common man. You can not find this preaching in the Bible anywhere.

So Marcelo, these scriptures do not in any way, support the mainstream church tradition of rejecting God's Sabbaths. I hope you can see this, or show me where I am wrong regarding the scriptures I posted.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
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#53
You failed to answer my question. Who instructed the apostle John to designate one specific day in the week "the Lord's Day"? Did he simply conjure this up from his own imagination, or was a there a spiritual reason why he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day?

If you claim that the apostle John was simply spouting off human ideas, then you nullify Divine revelation. On the other hand if the Lord Jesus Christ designated one day as "the Lord's Day" and told John by the Spirit to write that down for all ages, then you are in a serious controversy with Christ. And you cannot have both Moses and Christ.
You are right...we can't have both and I settle for Christ who kept His Fathers Commandments including the 7th day Sabbath ! He said He had not come to destroy the law...so why should He then do just that and change the days ?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#54
Phil36 has already answered it:


[/COLOR]How can people use Paul's letters regarding the "Weak in Faith" as support to create their own laws, or annul a Commandments of God.

What does one man believing one thing, and another man believing another have to do with God or God's Word? Shall I reject God's Commandments because some random man doesn't believe His Words?

What are we all the be convinced of in our mind? That one man, weak in the Faith, creates our Salvation or Doctrine? Or are we to be convinced, as Paul was, that God is true and every man a liar.



So Marcelo, these scriptures do not in any way, support the mainstream church tradition of rejecting God's Sabbaths. I hope you can see this, or show me where I am wrong regarding the scriptures I posted.



Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)


JESUS WAS ALSO ACCUSED OF SABBATH BREAKING. Why, if He wanted to be our "example" in Sabbath keeping didn't He make it clear that He was not breaking the Sabbath? Instead He clearly admits to it. He also admits that His disciples were breaking the Sabbath and He defends them. Read Matthew 12:1- 14 carefully. Jesus is clearly saying that His disciples are like the priests who may work in the temple every Sabbath and be innocent of breaking the Sabbath. When Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath" He is declaring that He is above the Sabbath. He may do what He wishes on the Sabbath and therefore His disciples may do whatever they wish as well.

Apparently Jesus did break the Sabbath: "Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath."..." John 9:15.If Jesus did not want us to understand that He was breaking the Sabbath why did He not speak against these accusations. It's because Jesus had the right and the authority to break the Sabbath because He is Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not bind Him. Think about this, if it does not bind Him, are we not "in Christ"? Why would it be any more binding upon us. (Again Read Matthew 12:1-14 carefully).

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament.

EVERY MENTION OF THE SABBATH IN THE BOOK OF ACTS without a single exception is in connection with Jewish worship on that day and not Christian celebration. Paul's evangelistic strategy was to go to the Jews first in a community and share the Gospel with them. Sabbath is the day when he knew he would find the most Jews gathering for worship. He knew he would have his best opportunity of sharing the good news of the Messiah to the Jews on Sabbath. It was not because he was meeting with a group of believing Christians. He was meeting with non-Christian Jews.

IS THE TEN COMMANDMENT LAW ETERNAL?

No, the Law is not eternal. Galatians 3:19 gives the purpose of the Law. It says: "What, then, was the purpose of he law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."
The law was given 430 years after Abraham. "What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Galatians 3:17-18.
The Law had a definite beginning time (430 years after Abraham) and a definite ending time, --When the promised Seed (Christ, vs. 16) came.

Other Scriptures such as Romans 5:12-14 indicate that there can be sin in the world, even BEFORE the Law was given. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned -- for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a type of Him who was to come."


CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

Nehemiah 9:13-14 says: "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).


WAS THE SABBATH GIVEN FOR ALL MANKIND TO KEEP PERPETUALLY?

No, - Though Genesis 2:1-3 says that after the Lord had ended all His work He rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, there is not a word about it being given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. You don't hear another word about the Sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. All fifty chapters are silent about the Sabbath.

You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. There is a conspicuous silence for 2,500 years after the Fall of man. It is not until after the redemption of God's people Israel out of Egypt when they are safely on the other side of the Red Sea that you read in the Book of Exodus that the Sabbath is mentioned again. (Exodus 16:22-30). Abraham was given commandments and ordinances, but the Sabbath is never mentioned as one of them.

Then the Sabbath is given to Israel and Israel alone. The Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel. "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17


Notice that the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe."


Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not for all of mankind.


Nehemiah 9:13-14 indicates that the Sabbath was not given to be kept by anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness. "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

DOESN'T THE BIBLE SAY THAT THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN?

"And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Sabbatarians often use this verse to say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man". When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.
The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given only to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. It is clearly stated that God did not give the Sabbath or other commandments to the fathers before (see verses 2-3).
One writer has brought up the point that this text shows that the Sabbath was not a part of the "moral" Law to be kept by all mankind from the beginning, for it had to be made. It was made in Exodus 16-20. Notice also that this text does not say it was made for man from the "beginning," as was marriage (cf Matthew 19:4ff). WHICH OTHER OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD TO BE MADE? --NOT ONE! (Gerald N. Wright, Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary, Star Bible & Tract Corp., 1977, pp. 78-79).

Wright commenting on this passage says: "The other nine [commandments] were (and are) inherently right from the beginning, reflecting God's righteous nature and being naturally a part of man's moral character, who was made in the image of God (cf Romans 2:14). Which command other than the sabbath is lower than man--subject to being set aside under certain circumstances? When, or under what circumstances, can man lawfully commit adultery? Obviously, never! Man's life is not above God's holy and moral laws. Yet even a sheep's life is more important than rigid enforcement of the sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12)!


Source:
http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/SabbathSunday/tabid/516/Default.aspx

 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
#55
Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)


JESUS WAS ALSO ACCUSED OF SABBATH BREAKING. Why, if He wanted to be our "example" in Sabbath keeping didn't He make it clear that He was not breaking the Sabbath? Instead He clearly admits to it. He also admits that His disciples were breaking the Sabbath and He defends them. Read Matthew 12:1- 14 carefully. Jesus is clearly saying that His disciples are like the priests who may work in the temple every Sabbath and be innocent of breaking the Sabbath. When Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath" He is declaring that He is above the Sabbath. He may do what He wishes on the Sabbath and therefore His disciples may do whatever they wish as well.

Apparently Jesus did break the Sabbath: "Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath."..." John 9:15.If Jesus did not want us to understand that He was breaking the Sabbath why did He not speak against these accusations. It's because Jesus had the right and the authority to break the Sabbath because He is Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not bind Him. Think about this, if it does not bind Him, are we not "in Christ"? Why would it be any more binding upon us. (Again Read Matthew 12:1-14 carefully).

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament.

EVERY MENTION OF THE SABBATH IN THE BOOK OF ACTS without a single exception is in connection with Jewish worship on that day and not Christian celebration. Paul's evangelistic strategy was to go to the Jews first in a community and share the Gospel with them. Sabbath is the day when he knew he would find the most Jews gathering for worship. He knew he would have his best opportunity of sharing the good news of the Messiah to the Jews on Sabbath. It was not because he was meeting with a group of believing Christians. He was meeting with non-Christian Jews.

IS THE TEN COMMANDMENT LAW ETERNAL?

No, the Law is not eternal. Galatians 3:19 gives the purpose of the Law. It says: "What, then, was the purpose of he law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."
The law was given 430 years after Abraham. "What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Galatians 3:17-18.
The Law had a definite beginning time (430 years after Abraham) and a definite ending time, --When the promised Seed (Christ, vs. 16) came.

Other Scriptures such as Romans 5:12-14 indicate that there can be sin in the world, even BEFORE the Law was given. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned -- for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a type of Him who was to come."


CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

Nehemiah 9:13-14 says: "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).


WAS THE SABBATH GIVEN FOR ALL MANKIND TO KEEP PERPETUALLY?

No, - Though Genesis 2:1-3 says that after the Lord had ended all His work He rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, there is not a word about it being given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. You don't hear another word about the Sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. All fifty chapters are silent about the Sabbath.

You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. There is a conspicuous silence for 2,500 years after the Fall of man. It is not until after the redemption of God's people Israel out of Egypt when they are safely on the other side of the Red Sea that you read in the Book of Exodus that the Sabbath is mentioned again. (Exodus 16:22-30). Abraham was given commandments and ordinances, but the Sabbath is never mentioned as one of them.

Then the Sabbath is given to Israel and Israel alone. The Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel. "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17


Notice that the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe."


Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not for all of mankind.


Nehemiah 9:13-14 indicates that the Sabbath was not given to be kept by anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness. "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

DOESN'T THE BIBLE SAY THAT THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN?

"And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Sabbatarians often use this verse to say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man". When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.
The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given only to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. It is clearly stated that God did not give the Sabbath or other commandments to the fathers before (see verses 2-3).
One writer has brought up the point that this text shows that the Sabbath was not a part of the "moral" Law to be kept by all mankind from the beginning, for it had to be made. It was made in Exodus 16-20. Notice also that this text does not say it was made for man from the "beginning," as was marriage (cf Matthew 19:4ff). WHICH OTHER OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD TO BE MADE? --NOT ONE! (Gerald N. Wright, Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary, Star Bible & Tract Corp., 1977, pp. 78-79).

Wright commenting on this passage says: "The other nine [commandments] were (and are) inherently right from the beginning, reflecting God's righteous nature and being naturally a part of man's moral character, who was made in the image of God (cf Romans 2:14). Which command other than the sabbath is lower than man--subject to being set aside under certain circumstances? When, or under what circumstances, can man lawfully commit adultery? Obviously, never! Man's life is not above God's holy and moral laws. Yet even a sheep's life is more important than rigid enforcement of the sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12)!


Source:
http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/SabbathSunday/tabid/516/Default.aspx

Yes, I am well aware of what the "MANY" who come in Christ's Name preach to protect their church traditions that Transgress God's Commandments. I don't agree with them, not because I am defending any religious franchise doctrine as they are, but because as I posted, the Bible doesn't teach what you preach.

You can go ahead and set your faith in man's traditions and their teaching. I will stick to the God of the Bible.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#56
Yes, I am well aware of what the "MANY" who come in Christ's Name preach to protect their church traditions that Transgress God's Commandments. I don't agree with them, not because I am defending any religious franchise doctrine as they are, but because as I posted, the Bible doesn't teach what you preach.

You can go ahead and set your faith in man's traditions and their teaching
. I will stick to the God of the Bible.


Hi Studyman,


Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)




JESUS WAS ALSO ACCUSED OF SABBATH BREAKING. Why, if He wanted to be our "example" in Sabbath keeping didn't He make it clear that He was not breaking the Sabbath? Instead He clearly admits to it. He also admits that His disciples were breaking the Sabbath and He defends them. Read Matthew 12:1- 14 carefully.Jesus is clearly saying that His disciples are like the priests who may work in the temple every Sabbath and be innocent of breaking the Sabbath. When Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath" He is declaring that He is above the Sabbath. He may do what He wishes on the Sabbath and therefore His disciples may do whatever they wish as well.

Apparently Jesus did break the Sabbath: "Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath."..." John 9:15.If Jesus did not want us to understand that He was breaking the Sabbath why did He not speak against these accusations. It's because Jesus had the right and the authority to break the Sabbath because He is Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not bind Him. Think about this, if it does not bind Him, are we not "in Christ"? Why would it be any more binding upon us. (Again Read Matthew 12:1-14 carefully).

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament.

EVERY MENTION OF THE SABBATH IN THE BOOK OF ACTS without a single exception is in connection with Jewish worship on that day and not Christian celebration. Paul's evangelistic strategy was to go to the Jews first in a community and share the Gospel with them. Sabbath is the day when he knew he would find the most Jews gathering for worship. He knew he would have his best opportunity of sharing the good news of the Messiah to the Jews on Sabbath. It was not because he was meeting with a group of believing Christians. He was meeting with non-Christian Jews.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
113
73
#57
The thing is that you are talking about 613 laws which consisted of ordinances/works /rituals/sacrifices/sin offerings abolished on the cross Eph 2v15; and Col 2v14;
and I am talking about the 10 Commandments...
Beta, this is something I always wanted to ask a sabbatarian: What's the scriptural basis for preserving the 10 Commandments while abolishing the rest of the Law.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
113
73
#58
Studyman said:
How can people use Paul's letters regarding the "Weak in Faith" as support to create their own laws, or annul a Commandments of God.
Good afternoon Marcelo,

In regards to the scriptures you use to support modern church tradition of rejecting some of God's Word.


Romans 14:5
"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."
Is Paul not talking about Jewish Christians who still looked on the Sabbath as a day of special obligation?
 
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Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
#59
Is Paul not talking about Jewish Christians who still looked on the Sabbath as a day of special obligation?
I think it is a mistake to assume this given it didn't say anything about the Sabbath or any other of God's Commandments. Only that one man thinks one way and another man thinks another. Both Gentiles and Jews had created their own High Days, their own righteousness and their own laws.

Paul taught:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

True repentance would by from the heart (Mind). So it seems Paul is preaching that every man "Must be convinced in his own mind" about what works are worthy of repentance and what works are not.

You can't force someone to have Faith in God enough to follow His instruction as Abraham did. They either believe in Him or they don't. So Paul knows they must first hear the Word of God then choose to believe it or not.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
#60
Beta, this is something I always wanted to ask a sabbatarian: What's the scriptural basis for preserving the 10 Commandments while abolishing the rest of the Law.
For me it is Deut 5v22These words (beginning v1 and citing the 10 Com) the Lord spoke to all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick darkness with a great voice: and he added no more' and he wrote them on 2 tables of stone and delivered them unto me.

When it says 'he added no more ' (to the 10) to me it shows they are separate from the other commandments contained in ordinances/works, that came through Moses and were later abolished by Christ Eph 2v15, Col 2v14.
There is a difference between sacred Coms to love God and neighbour and the works coms which were temporary to help man in keeping the 10. When Jesus later abolished the works HE HIMSELF would take up teaching man HOW to keep the Commandments according to God in the NT.

Jesus did not go around 'commanding' us to do this or that...HE taught mainly by compassion, mercy and example .Human condition had deteriorated so badly that it was pointless commanding 'blind, deaf and lame people to do anything for they could not see, hear or walk in order to obey instructions ...so Jesus has to literally take us by the hand to lead us and do what He instructs us, so we can be 'healed of our maladies and become whole/well again....hence we are to walk with Him 24/7...the only way to get healed and become holy as our Father in heaven...it starts with keeping 'holy time with Him. But please know it is 'not commanded or forced on you...it's your choice !
I don't know if you understand all this or if it makes sense...but please ask if you need more clarity.

And thank you for the opportunity to state my case. I kept it short so as not to bore you.
 
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