Why Calvinism is NOT biblical
- Thread starter LW97
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Like I said previously, I never studied calvinism or arminianism. There are aspects of both I agree with I think, and disagree with. I am thoroughly convinced that born again children of God will never lose their salvation, and have their Father in Heaven assign Angels to toss a single one of His Children into Hell. Is that the P in tulip? In fact, I fall mostly in line with the "T" MOSTLY agree with the "U" DO NOT AGREE with the "L" somewhat agree with the "I" as well. (Just looked up a brief definition of each.)
But I will say, the longer I grow and believe with faith the Word, the MORE and MORE I lean in that TULIP direction. It is interesting the vitriol of those opposed to it. You may also notice that it is rarely a calvinist that starts these divisive threads.
But I will say, the longer I grow and believe with faith the Word, the MORE and MORE I lean in that TULIP direction. It is interesting the vitriol of those opposed to it. You may also notice that it is rarely a calvinist that starts these divisive threads.
Just to add for clarity so those who do not know or are not familiar with John Calvin's TULIP model.
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return
Source:CalvinistCorner(There are video's included for each point at that original site)True that, but many people like to hear the Bible according to how they want to hear it, as the occultist will want to hear it that way, and other religions according to their religion, and the prejudice according to that, and the homosexual according to that, and the pot smokers according to that, and so on, and in the future the time will come they will not want to hear the Bible according to the truth, but according to their own lusts, evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater.
So people who like Calvinism seem to like hearing the word according to the flesh, that they can never be lost, which is no pressure, no worry, no stress, and like to enjoy fleshy pleasures, and worldliness, because anybody that says they cannot abstain from sin, and they sin daily, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, there is some sinning going on, and they will hold unto sin thinking they are right with God.
But what is strange is when they sin they enjoy the sin, so if they say they cannot abstain from sin, as having a woe is me attitude because they cannot abstain from sin, then why do they enjoy the sin when they sin.
When they sin they enjoy the sin, for it they did not enjoy it they would not do the sin, and anything we enjoy we do it on purpose, so they sin on purpose and then want an excuse for it.
Which means they are not trying to beat sin, and do not hate sin, but want to enjoy sin and say they are still right with God.
They like that ole' Calvinova, as he whispers sweet nothings in to their ear, wooing them according to the flesh.
So people who like Calvinism seem to like hearing the word according to the flesh, that they can never be lost, which is no pressure, no worry, no stress, and like to enjoy fleshy pleasures, and worldliness, because anybody that says they cannot abstain from sin, and they sin daily, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, there is some sinning going on, and they will hold unto sin thinking they are right with God.
But what is strange is when they sin they enjoy the sin, so if they say they cannot abstain from sin, as having a woe is me attitude because they cannot abstain from sin, then why do they enjoy the sin when they sin.
When they sin they enjoy the sin, for it they did not enjoy it they would not do the sin, and anything we enjoy we do it on purpose, so they sin on purpose and then want an excuse for it.
Which means they are not trying to beat sin, and do not hate sin, but want to enjoy sin and say they are still right with God.
They like that ole' Calvinova, as he whispers sweet nothings in to their ear, wooing them according to the flesh.
Good morning.
So, have you come to the truth that you are predestined, yet?
So, have you come to the truth that you are predestined, yet?
Hi Penn!
Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I'll give it a shot. So here's what I think you're saying, Adam & Eve had a choice to disobey and when we become a new creation we also have a choice to disobey, but unbelievers do not? That's a fair argument that I can address with other Scriptures, but my Adam & Eve comparison was to show that even in the beginning God desired mankind to have freedom to make mistakes.
You said my comparison wasn't a fair or a good one, but it wasn't about Adam & Eve, but about God and His original plan for mankind. He set them in a garden where every day they had a choice to obey or disobey Him. Scripture says faith believes God is a rewarder. He's a rewarder at heart. We are rewarded for trusting Him. Consider the parables that Jesus gives to the disciples. In one of them He says, "You have been faithful with little, so I will give you more." Some He rewarded and one He took away all that He had been given based on their choices.
Hopefully you understand now why I made the comparison I did. Bless you and thanks for your comment.
-
1
- Show all
I believe the atonement was efficacious for the entire world. But I'm also not a universalist.
He died for the world, but how will they know unless someone tells them?
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Paul doesn't at all explain here or hint that some will be saved and others won't because of God's choice. He clearly puts the focus on those who preach the good news.
This passage is probably our clearest gospel passage we have in Scripture. Paul even references Isaiah 52 which is our OT prophetic Scripture for the good news to come. "How beautiful are the feet of those who carry good news."
I understand we can read into this and say, "Well they only believe if God gives them power to believe..." But that is simply adding to the context in favor of doctrine. If we read this context simply we read that faith comes by hearing the gospel. Why? Because Jesus' death was effective for them and they shall be saved if they believe. And if they don't believe, well I believe God allows us that choice. But He desires none to perish.
He died for the world, but how will they know unless someone tells them?
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Paul doesn't at all explain here or hint that some will be saved and others won't because of God's choice. He clearly puts the focus on those who preach the good news.
This passage is probably our clearest gospel passage we have in Scripture. Paul even references Isaiah 52 which is our OT prophetic Scripture for the good news to come. "How beautiful are the feet of those who carry good news."
I understand we can read into this and say, "Well they only believe if God gives them power to believe..." But that is simply adding to the context in favor of doctrine. If we read this context simply we read that faith comes by hearing the gospel. Why? Because Jesus' death was effective for them and they shall be saved if they believe. And if they don't believe, well I believe God allows us that choice. But He desires none to perish.
The problem is that the dominoes of TULIP stand and fall together. You knock one down and they all collapse, since they are all connected. And the reason why Christians are bitterly opposed to this theology is because it is a gross distortion of the Gospel, and the meaning of salvation.
-
1
- Show all
How could the newborn man and woman be obedient by choice when the first people had no cognitive control or experiential programming within their cerebral cortex?
They were like newborns of today. That's why the tree that was forbidden possessed the fruit of rationality and choice. That fruit of the knowledge of good or evil.
And God having created every living creature to populate the earth was not aware the first angel in his Heavenly creation that he'd banished from there and sent to earth before creating humans disguised himself as a snake so as to seduce Eve to disobedience? When she had no capacity to comprehend good or evil.
They were like newborns of today. That's why the tree that was forbidden possessed the fruit of rationality and choice. That fruit of the knowledge of good or evil.
And God having created every living creature to populate the earth was not aware the first angel in his Heavenly creation that he'd banished from there and sent to earth before creating humans disguised himself as a snake so as to seduce Eve to disobedience? When she had no capacity to comprehend good or evil.
The only "capacity" Eve had, was to "heed", or NOT "heed!" T'wasn't til AFTER she had been "wholly seduced" that she THEN, for the FIRST TIME, was cognizant of her disobedience! (and, the cover over the bottomless pit, was removed. And, hasn't been replaced SINCE!) Which included herself being NEKKID!...At which time adam asked her" Now just WHERE IS that fruit that serpent had you partake from?" And, she replied: "Well?...HERE!" "How is THAT partaking?" Adam inquired. "Like THIS!" Eve showed him. THEN? They BOTH were congnizant of their nekkidness!
If he loved righteousness why would an omniscient Father plant an unrighteous tree in paradise? And why was conscious awareness of right from wrong forbidden fruit?
Exactly! The only capacity Eve and then the Adam had to heed, obey, or not heed, not obey, came after the capacity to consciously recognize right from wrong entered into them through the fruit that was forbidden them.
They had no capacity prior.
They'd obeyed a voice in the garden before. God.
A voice from the mouth of a snake would be no warning, no different because Eve was totally innocent. And far far from able to consciously discern. Especially the guile of the great Deceiver himself, Satan.
The entire Eden story is an analogy that informs how our species came to be. It's not literal, it's figurative.
It is the story of the dual reality that exists as the macrocosm and microcosm. Good and Evil. Dark and Light. Up and Down. Etc...
Without evil in the world we would have no capacity to need righteousness to save us.
Exactly! The only capacity Eve and then the Adam had to heed, obey, or not heed, not obey, came after the capacity to consciously recognize right from wrong entered into them through the fruit that was forbidden them.
They had no capacity prior.
They'd obeyed a voice in the garden before. God.
A voice from the mouth of a snake would be no warning, no different because Eve was totally innocent. And far far from able to consciously discern. Especially the guile of the great Deceiver himself, Satan.
The entire Eden story is an analogy that informs how our species came to be. It's not literal, it's figurative.
It is the story of the dual reality that exists as the macrocosm and microcosm. Good and Evil. Dark and Light. Up and Down. Etc...
Without evil in the world we would have no capacity to need righteousness to save us.