Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Ogom

Active member
Aug 22, 2020
234
70
28
ogom.co
Pray tell us what you think Paul is talking about in these passages?

2Thess 2:3-5

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,
4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

if we endeavor to attempt to read it with spiritual eyes, the answers might come (for anyone). not of our own knowledge or understanding al(l)-ways but given and /or led to the right and/ or better understandings (milk, herbs, meat, strong meat) -- as we are able to (with God's [the Spirit's] help) to learn more.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
Pray tell us what you think Paul is talking about in these passages?

2Thess 2:3-5

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,
4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And still does not change [17 Then we which are alive and [[[[[remain]]]]] shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.]

You can create anything you like, but Paul still is clear WE [[[[[REMAIN]]]]] UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD!

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and [[[[[remain]]]]] unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
Paul tells us TWICE that we [[[[[REMAIN]]]]] until the Coming of the LORD!


Are you now telling me Paul is a Liar?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,034
442
83
Hello de-merald,

While it is true that after the Lord resurrected, many OT saints came out of the tombs and went into the city. However, it is my belief that their resurrection was similar to when the Lord raised Lazarus or the synagogue rulers daughter and others from the dead, which was in their same mortal body. To be clear, those who came out of the tombs did not resurrect in their immortal and glorified bodies, but in their mortal bodies and later died again.

In addition, scripture states that the resurrection of the dead and the living within the church will be a group resurrection, where the entire church will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies. Then there is the following:

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the first fruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

So, Christ was the first fruits of those who have resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies and the next resurrection immortal and glorified will be the church, which is who is referred to as "those who belong to Him." My point being is that, there couldn't have been anyone resurrected immortal and glorified in between those two mentioned. The church is next.
Thats a good explanation i suppose, so they where resurrected to recieve the first fruits, just like any one alive today in Jesus recieve the first fruits and die with them.
Thanks for your replies, well brother hope you make it to the promised land. i think thats what where all hoping for. we really are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling a tribulation valid for today.

This is a tribulation we all face brother is, but many will be called and few will be chosen, which is another tribulation, thats valid for today. Theres so many other tribulations valid for today, We cant change the Judgement of our father holy spirit and have to accept his Judgment, We are in tribulation and few will be chosen whether thats the same as the great tribulations to come is a different matter, but there is similarities that apply just the same as today. personaly My soul crys out to the lord and at times i fear and tremble,

When the lord returns for the thousand years of his reign on current earth, many people will be born in to a world of tribulation, which really is not much different today. a thousand years is a long time and many will be born repoplate at that time. its seems like a never ending cycle of today.

The world of tribulation, i herd an explanation once that went something like this, i wonder if we have been here befor all ready and we keep getting reincarnated untill we get it right. this could be the reason why where not to suppose to know, when the rapture is to happen, you know like if everyone thought oh its ok if i get this life wrong, god will reincarnate me again and again, untill i do get it right, as the truth is the holy spirit is pure, and doesnt want anyone to perish for the whole of eternity. it sounds like something the enemy would say to encouarge people to do wrong (temptation) and i wonder how many have fell for that temptation, like if you want to experince getting high on drugs or the pleasures of adultery, its ok you will get reincarnated, the holy spirit is only putting fear into that youll go to hell if you do, the holy spiirt doesnt really mean youll go to hell for wrong doing you can even go and rob aload of money and rock and roll on drugs you will still be reincarnated.
personally i think never ending tribulation is a reality, at present but maybe not as bad as the great tribulation to come. and the enemy is trying to steal souls. if we obey the lord we will be fine. if we fall for temptation we may not.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,312
1,409
113
Paul tells us TWICE that we [[[[[REMAIN]]]]] until the Coming of the LORD!


Are you now telling me Paul is a Liar?
But where does the text itself tell us that His "parousia / presence" will BE, at that time, "to the EARTH"?? No. It does not say that.


... because obviously the text tells us that we'll be "caught up"... to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR.
 

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,034
442
83
Hi andy welcome to cloud cuckoo land lol i understand what your saying, You have to look at the context. to be raptured means to be taken up. lifted up to the clouds away from the tribulation on earth. to be with the lord for ever.

you could argue that being in the clouds is still remaining on earth at the time of tribulation. but then we have Jesus saying he will go and prepare place for us in heaven.

So then the question is do we remain in the clouds or from the clouds goto heaven.

how do you feal, do we remain the clouds ? if your answer is yes. are we still apart of the tribulation when where in the clouds ?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Hi andy welcome to cloud cuckoo land lol i understand what your saying, You have to look at the context. to be raptured means to be taken up. lifted up to the clouds away from the tribulation on earth. to be with the lord for ever.

you could argue that being in the clouds is still remaining on earth at the time of tribulation. but then we have Jesus saying he will go and prepare place for us in heaven.

So then the question is do we remain in the clouds or from the clouds goto heaven.

how do you feal, do we remain the clouds ? if your answer is yes. are we still apart of the tribulation when where in the clouds ?
It is not tribulation really, it is Wrath.
The Church is most certainly not present for the Wrath of the Lord
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,312
1,409
113
"... the hour of temptation [/trial], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."






[note: not a literal "hour" i.e. 60 minutes]
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,862
4,924
113
It is not tribulation really, it is Wrath.
The Church is most certainly not present for the Wrath of the Lord
Wow you are making progress. I would read everything TDW and Ahwatukee is writing.....and get back on the right track. The spatial and temporal differences between the Rapture and the SC are there for everyone to see. You just need to take your blinders off.
 

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,034
442
83
It is not tribulation really, it is Wrath.
The Church is most certainly not present for the Wrath of the Lord
There been many accounts of Gods wrath allready, and by all acounts Gods chidlren where apart of that to, the ot saints that where raised from the grave would have been apart of them periods,

mathew 27:51-52
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,862
4,924
113
I was pointing out your flawed theory about the A of D, of which Jesus speaks to in Matthew 24. Those passages in 2Thes 2 define the A of D. So tell us is this passage speaking to what Jesus said about the A of D? Are both of these yet future?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
There been many accounts of Gods wrath allready, and by all acounts Gods chidlren where apart of that to, the ot saints that where raised from the grave would have been apart of them periods,

mathew 27:51-52
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Which accounts?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,312
1,409
113
^ Luke 21:23,20 "and WRATH upon this people"; Matthew 22:7 "But when the king heard thereof he was WROTH and..." [i.e. the 70ad events]
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
^ Luke 21:23,20 "and WRATH upon this people"; Matthew 22:7 "But when the king heard thereof he was WROTH and..." [i.e. the 70ad events]
Upon the children of disobedience.
You should be helping the beginners.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
But where does the text itself tell us that His "parousia / presence" will BE, at that time, "to the EARTH"?? No. It does not say that.


... because obviously the text tells us that we'll be "caught up"... to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR.
Matthew 24:30 states similar thing Christ gathers His Elect. But it claims in the Verse prior (29) it happens Immediately AFTER Tribulation.

Revelation 16:15 confirms both Paul and Christ's claim:
Verses 1-14 explain all of the Wrath of God is fulfilled and afterwards:
15 Behold, I come as a thief: blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, that he may not walk naked, and that men may not see his shame.

So it is clearly on Earth.

Verse 15 explains to keep watch for Christs Return and speaks of SHAME. There is no watching for Christ to return in HEAVEN nor is their SHAME. Both excellent pointers to conclude all of this is talking about Believers on Earth during the Tribulation and WRATH of God to keep WATCH for Christ.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
I was pointing out your flawed theory about the A of D, of which Jesus speaks to in Matthew 24. Those passages in 2Thes 2 define the A of D. So tell us is this passage speaking to what Jesus said about the A of D? Are both of these yet future?
The AoD is the ending of Daily Sacrifice.
The AoD is not the Beast coming who rules during our 7 year Tribulation.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
Hi andy welcome to cloud cuckoo land lol i understand what your saying, You have to look at the context. to be raptured means to be taken up. lifted up to the clouds away from the tribulation on earth. to be with the lord for ever.

you could argue that being in the clouds is still remaining on earth at the time of tribulation. but then we have Jesus saying he will go and prepare place for us in heaven.

So then the question is do we remain in the clouds or from the clouds goto heaven.

how do you feal, do we remain the clouds ? if your answer is yes. are we still apart of the tribulation when where in the clouds ?

It's placement of time.

Now watch how parallel these Verses actually are.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thessalonians explains We will [[REMAIN]] until (The COMING) of the Lord. The Coming has always been known as the Second Coming.
Thessalonians explains when the Coming of the Lord happens, we are Caught Up with Christ into the CLOUDS.


Now look at Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew, just like Thessalonians, claims Christ Comes in the CLOUDS and gathers the Elect [or as Paul claims THOSE of us WHO ((REMAIN))].

So Matthew 24 and Thessalonians explains at the Coming of the Lord [the SECOND COMING] Christ will be gather us who REMAIN into the CLOUDS. So Paul verifies Christ in Matthew 24.


But when does this happen?
Revelation 16:15 tells us [AFTER] the WRATH of God is complete and Christ tells us in Matthew 24:29 IMMEDIATELY after the Tribulation.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


So Paul confirms Christ at His Second Coming comes and gathers us into the CLOUDS.
And Christ confirms to John in Revelation it happens after the WRATH of God or the Tribulation IMMEDIATELY Ends!
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
It's placement of time.

Now watch how parallel these Verses actually are.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Thessalonians explains We will [[REMAIN]] until (The COMING) of the Lord. The Coming has always been known as the Second Coming.
Thessalonians explains when the Coming of the Lord happens, we are Caught Up with Christ into the CLOUDS.


Now look at Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew, just like Thessalonians, claims Christ Comes in the CLOUDS and gathers the Elect [or as Paul claims THOSE of us WHO ((REMAIN))].

So Matthew 24 and Thessalonians explains at the Coming of the Lord [the SECOND COMING] Christ will be gather us who REMAIN into the CLOUDS. So Paul verifies Christ in Matthew 24.


But when does this happen?
Revelation 16:15 tells us [AFTER] the WRATH of God is complete and Christ tells us in Matthew 24:29 IMMEDIATELY after the Tribulation.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


So Paul confirms Christ at His Second Coming comes and gathers us into the CLOUDS.
And Christ confirms to John in Revelation it happens after the WRATH of God or the Tribulation IMMEDIATELY Ends!

And the Beautiful thing here about Matthew 24 and Thessalonians, They both use the SAME LANGUAGE when describing Christ comes (1)[Coming of the Lord/Coming of the Son of Man] and gathers us (Elect/Those of us who REMAIN) into the (2) [CLOUDS].

And Matthew 24 and Revelation 16:15 shows us this placement when this happens [After the WRATH of God explained in Verses 1-14 and Matthew 24:30 when Tribulation IMMEDIATELY Ends].

So they gives us Direct Clues (1) the Coming of the LORD/Son of Man [Second Coming], Christ is in the (2) [CLOUDS] and gathers the (3) [Elect or those who are ALIVE and {{{REMAIN}}}], and it happens (4) when the [WRATH of God is finished or the Tribulation IMMEDIATELY Ends].
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
933
192
43
And the Beautiful thing here about Matthew 24 and Thessalonians, They both use the SAME LANGUAGE when describing Christ comes (1)[Coming of the Lord/Coming of the Son of Man] and gathers us (Elect/Those of us who REMAIN) into the (2) [CLOUDS].

And Matthew 24 and Revelation 16:15 shows us this placement when this happens [After the WRATH of God explained in Verses 1-14 and Matthew 24:30 when Tribulation IMMEDIATELY Ends].

So they gives us Direct Clues (1) the Coming of the LORD/Son of Man [Second Coming], Christ is in the (2) [CLOUDS] and gathers the (3) [Elect or those who are ALIVE and {{{REMAIN}}}], and it happens (4) when the [WRATH of God is finished or the Tribulation IMMEDIATELY Ends].
And you don't even have to twist Scripture like you do for Pre-Trib Rapture because they SAY the SAME WORDS about the SAME EVENT and Shows us when this HAPPENS at the SAME TIME!

It is literally foolproof!