Why Daniel's 70th week must be in the future

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
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#82
Of course the other problem with the antichrist rejection of Daniel's 70 weeks is that the prophecy is sealed at the end of 70 weeks, not at the end of 69 weeks.
'70 weeks are determined ...............to seal up..............the prophecy'
God has ordered that the prophecy cannot be understood until 70 weeks have elapsed.
Therefore the error of the 69 week camp is egregious in the extreme.
God sealed the prophecy for this very purpose.
It is technically impossible to posit an explanation of 69 weeks if the entire 70 weeks have not elapsed.
Another consideration:


[taken from BibleHub... under Commentaries... quoting excerpt]

"and to seal vision and prophet] i.e. to set the seal to them, to ratify and confirm the prophets’ predictions, the figure (cf. John 3:33; John 6:27) being derived from the custom of affixing a seal to a document, in order to guarantee its genuineness (Jeremiah 32:10-11; Jeremiah 32:44). The close of the 70 weeks will bring with it the confirmation of the prophetic utterances (such as those just quoted) respecting a blissful future.

"A.V., R.V., ‘seal up,’ means to close up, preclude from activity, the sense of the expression, upon this view, being supposed to be that, prophecies being fulfilled, prophet and vision will be needed no more."

--Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/9-24.htm


[end quoting]


____________




I'm not sure... but I do not see the definite article ('the') with "prophecy" in v.24... as you have it ^

https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-24.htm


[this is why I see the explanation I quoted making more sense than what you've stated ;) ]
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#83
Another consideration:


[taken from BibleHub... under Commentaries... quoting excerpt]

"and to seal vision and prophet] i.e. to set the seal to them, to ratify and confirm the prophets’ predictions, the figure (cf. John 3:33; John 6:27) being derived from the custom of affixing a seal to a document, in order to guarantee its genuineness (Jeremiah 32:10-11; Jeremiah 32:44). The close of the 70 weeks will bring with it the confirmation of the prophetic utterances (such as those just quoted) respecting a blissful future.

"A.V., R.V., ‘seal up,’ means to close up, preclude from activity, the sense of the expression, upon this view, being supposed to be that, prophecies being fulfilled, prophet and vision will be needed no more."

--Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/9-24.htm

[end quoting]
__________

I'm not sure... but I do not see the definite article ('the') with "prophecy" in v.24... as you have it ^

https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-24.htm

[this is why I see the explanation I quoted making more sense than what you've stated ;) ]
I hear you. It's a very significant thing you say.

Re the sealing and the revelation, it is the same concept as the tying and the unloosing.
(In fact the imagery of a knotted bag is for me easier to grasp).
Only Jesus can break the seals - i.e. make the revelation - in Revelation.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
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#84
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#85
Yes. I agree EG.
It is indeed a prophecy to Israel.
Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say:

The most important thing is that it is A Messianic Prophecy to Israel
But its not a messianic prophecy, thats the issue, To claim it is a messianic only is to take it out of context.

Daniel was not praying about the coming messiah, He prayed about the sin of the people and the fact the 70 years were almost completed and Israel had not yet repented.

Its a prophecy concerning Israel and her sin, and all prophecy related to her.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
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#86
[...] how a Messianic Prophecy like Daniel 9 - obviously all
now fulfilled and all amply explained by Paul in Hebrews [...]
Hebrews 7:22 -

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect indicative] the guarantee [/surety] of a better covenant."
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#87
Where do you understand Christ (going and) returning in the Prophecy EG?
He came and was cut off (killed) after the 69th week (As the prophet said, he will come on a donkey)

when he was killed only 69 weeks had been completed. There was no 70 weeks.

We have to go to other prophesies and his own words to determine when he returns. In jesus own words. He will return because if he did not no flesh would survive. this would be the end of the great tribulation period. or the second half of the final week. or as Gabriel puts it. the end of the consummation which is poured out on the desolate.

Dan 9: Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#88
He came and was cut off (killed) after the 69th week (As the prophet said, he will come on a donkey)

when he was killed only 69 weeks had been completed. There was no 70 weeks.

We have to go to other prophesies and his own words to determine when he returns. In jesus own words. He will return because if he did not no flesh would survive. this would be the end of the great tribulation period. or the second half of the final week. or as Gabriel puts it. the end of the consummation which is poured out on the desolate.

Dan 9: Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
Firstly 'the anointed one' is not necessarily Jesus.
Secondly, even if it were, nowhere does it say that he will 'return' or (some equivalent) to close out the prophecy.

In fact the whole business of anointing is pretty crucial to the prophecy.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,325
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#89
Actually it does,
Dan 9 starts of with Daniel confessing the sins of him and the people, and acknowledging that the reason they are here is because of their transgressions according to the law of Moses (Lev 26) his prayer being FOR his people, his holy city etc..



Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, [d]for we have rebelled against Him; 10 nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets. 11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.

O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

then as Gabriel gives his answer, he mentions exactly what Daniel is praying about.

24, Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression,

your people, to finish the transgression

daniel prayeyed for his people who were and continued to transgress all the way to 70 ad and continue today,

Gabriels answer was that 70 weeks were determined for his people, to finish that transgression.

they are still in sin, to much prophecy states when the messiah comes Israel will repent and finished THEIR transgression, and sin no more to ignore the fact that this is not only talking of them, we have words which say it will come true

As for “to restrain” in the NIV

please note that klh is the root used in Dan 9


1. Hebr. does not make a sharp morphological distinction between klh “to cease” and klʾ “to hold back,” as the numerous assimilations in inflection indicate (BL 375, 424; KBL 436a). Both roots occur in Ug. (WUS no. 1311: kla “to close”; no. 1317: kly “to be at an end”); Akk. kalû, which also combines the meaning “to cease” with the basic meaning “to hold back,” should probably be treated as *klʾ (GAG §105c; AHw 428f.). Like Akk., Aram. also knows only the (common Sem.) root klʾ, in the senses “to hold back” and “to come to an end.” In Neo-Pun., klh pi. is not attested with certainty (KAI no. 145.11; DISO 121).
A glance at the semantic spheres of the two verbs indicates that they are closely related semasiologically. There seems to be an elemental semasiological process wherein the notion of “limiting” and “ending” develops from the basic meaning of “holding back” and “blocking off”; cf. Ger. “schliessen” and Lat. “claudere” with the same characteristic double meaning “to enclose” and “to close off.” A corresponding semasiological process lies behind the antonym → ḥll hi.: “to unloose, release” > “to begin”; cf. e.g., Eng. “to open” and Lat. “aperire” for the beginning of talks.
The relationship between the two verbs in Hebr. also receives its simplest explanation through the assumption that “to cease” developed secondarily from the local, more original “to hold back,” and that the expansion in meaning resulted in a corresponding, although not always strictly executed, morphological division of the roots.

and no matter which way we want to use it, it still concerns his people. Not you or I. in 70 Ad. Isreal was defeated according to Lev 26,

lev 26: 27 ‘Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30 I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your [h]remains on the [i]remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will [j]lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. 32 I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. 33 You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste.

It’s all about davids people and holy city, it was laced waste after the messiah was cut off, and the people were scattered all around the Roman Empire, just as promised,
For all your research, you overlooked my key point: that the transgression of Israel is complete. ;)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#90
Firstly 'the anointed one' is not necessarily Jesus.
Secondly, even if it were, nowhere does it say that he will 'return' or (some equivalent) to close out the prophecy.

In fact the whole business of anointing is pretty crucial to the prophecy.
1. if its not jesus who is it?
2. History shows Jesus came exactly in the time from given.
3. He was cut off immediately after this (hung on a cross)
4. What other anointed one or messiah would david be thinking of?
5. In the passage your correct. In other scripture adding prophecy up. It does.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#91
For all your research, you overlooked my key point: that the transgression of Israel is complete. ;)
It is?

then why are they not living in the land? Why did the land get destroyed according to lev 26? Why are they still in sin?

I read your post. I just can not agree with it.

Remember, we must look at all prophecy

The below has not yet happened?

ez 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

This is when Israel will make a complete end of her transgressions.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#92
1. if its not jesus who is it?
2. History shows Jesus came exactly in the time from given.
3. He was cut off immediately after this (hung on a cross)
4. What other anointed one or messiah would david be thinking of?
5. In the passage your correct. In other scripture adding prophecy up. It does.
I should think it is the High Priest, Ananus Ben Ananus

It is not just the person, it also the position that is cut off.
Hence he (The High Priest) has nothing - The High Priest ceases to exist.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,325
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#93
It is?

then why are they not living in the land? Why did the land get destroyed according to lev 26? Why are they still in sin?

I read your post. I just can not agree with it.

Remember, we must look at all prophecy

The below has not yet happened?

ez 37:
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

This is when Israel will make a complete end of her transgressions.
Yours is one way to view it, but not the only way. Remember, the Pharisees had very specific ways of interpreting the messianic prophecies, yet when the Messiah came along, He did not fit their preconceived ideas, and they didn't recognize Him. To me, the futurist approach to Daniel 9 suffers from exactly the same error.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
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Pacific NW USA
#94
One of the key prophecies in the Bible is that of the 70 "weeks" in the book of Daniel. There are certain denominations and/or individuals who teach that the 70 weeks of Daniel (as prophesied by Gabriel) have already been fulfilled. But even a cursory reading of Daniel 9:24 will show that that is impossible. Here is what is stated in the King James Bible:

Seventy weeks are determined
[A] upon thy people (the Jews) and
upon thy holy city (Jerusalem):
[1] to finish the transgression, and
[2] to make an end of sins, and
[3] to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
[4] to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
[5] to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
[6] to anoint the most Holy.


The first question we must ask is this: "Has everlasting righteousness been established in (a) Jerusalem, (b) Israel, and (c) the whole world?" and the resounding answer is "NO!" That should settle the matter right there.
You are defining "everlasting righteousness" in a self-determined context when there is a different context given us. We are told this is a period of 70 Weeks--not 490 Years. What this means is that the Weeks are all consecutive, or they can not be considered to be a 70 Week period. If it is 69 Weeks separated by any length of time with the 70th Week, then they are two separate periods, a 69 Week period and a one Week period.

Furthermore, the 70th Week does not appear to be a full Week of 7 years, since we are told something happens in the midst of the Week. Even if the 70th Week is half a Week, it is still the 70th and last Week of the 70 Week period.

So in light of the fact this is a single consecutive period of 70 Weeks, the 70th Week *cannot* be a future period of time. It had to have been fulfilled in the time of Christ, who is cut off after the 69 Weeks, resulting in the termination of OT offerings in the midst of the 70th Week. Christ's death brought about the termination of OT sacrifices. And the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Abomination of Desolation follows soon after the completion of this 70 Week period. All of this was fulfilled in history.

And so, when we look at "everlasting righteousness," how are we to explain it as "brought in" in the time of Christ? Quite simply, Christ himself was the "everlasting righteousness" who appeared on behalf of human salvation. He said he was the way, the truth, and the life. As such, he was the epitome of "everlasting righteousness," or "eternal life." And this appearance did, in fact, take place at his 1st Coming.

1. To finish the transgression: the word "transgression" in Scripture generally applies to a violation or breaking of the Ten Commandments. Has the violation of the Ten Commandments stopped?
Again, if the context is the 70th Week, we must ask how Christ's 1st appearing brought about an end to sin? We are told that his death on the cross, the sacrifice of the righteous for all human sin, brought about the eternal judgment of all sin on earth. This was a legal act, and not the full outcome of this judgment.

To "finish transgression" may have to do with the fact that Israel's sin was brought to complete maturity in the time of Christ, when they rejected him and allowed him to be crucified. This brought Israel's sin to the point of eternal judgment, not that the nation would be destroyed, but that all in Israel who reject Christ will be eternally cut off from Israel in the future.

And this fact was shown by God causing the religion of Israel to be completely destroyed under the Law, making all true worship take place through Christ. The temple was destroyed for all time, and Israel was scattered until the time when Christ will come back to bring spiritual restoration to the Jewish people.

5. To seal up the vision and prophecy: all visions and prophecies must be fulfilled, and once they are fulfilled there is no further need for this. Once again that can only happen when the New Heavens and the New Earth are firmly in place.
Prophecy was fulfilled in the death of Christ. Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." This didn't mean that there would be no more prophecy and no more fulfillment of prophecy. No, this just meant that Christ's death was the critical aspect by which all of God's promises would be fulfilled. To "seal" this vision is to warrantee that it would happen.

6. To anoint the most Holy: this can only be a reference to the final temple in Jerusalem as described in Ezekiel. God will see this temple as "most holy".
The early Church Fathers saw the "most Holy" as representative of Christ himself, since the temple had been rejected by Christ and devoted to destruction. And so, this "anointing" was God's selection of a new "holy place," namely Christ himself.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#95
I should think it is the High Priest, Ananus Ben Ananus

It is not just the person, it also the position that is cut off.
Hence he (The High Priest) has nothing - The High Priest ceases to exist.
Not sure why Gabriel would be saying a high priest will come in 69 weeks of years only to be cut off immediately following

Can you explain this to me?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#96
Yours is one way to view it, but not the only way. Remember, the Pharisees had very specific ways of interpreting the messianic prophecies, yet when the Messiah came along, He did not fit their preconceived ideas, and they didn't recognize Him. To me, the futurist approach to Daniel 9 suffers from exactly the same error.
Daniel is forbidden in Israel

Because messiah did not come in 69 weeks as prophesied.

And I know mine is not the only view. I am just explaining my view. and showing why I can not interpret your view. I am giving a second view.

Dan 9 has not been fulfilled. There was never an abomination fo desolation in AD 70. this alone shows that it could not be fulfilled. this is not to include everything else that has yet to happen.
 
Oct 23, 2020
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#97
Not sure why Gabriel would be saying a high priest will come in 69 weeks of years only to be cut off immediately following

Can you explain this to me?
It doesn't say he comes - it just says he is cut off
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#98
You are defining "everlasting righteousness" in a self-determined context when there is a different context given us.
No. I am not re-defining everlasting righteousness. So firstly let's see what Peter says about the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Pet 3:13)

What does this mean in practical terms? That all sin, evil, and corruption will be absent from the earth after the Great White Throne Judgment and after it has been supernaturally cleansed by fire. God will establish His literal Kingdom on earth through Christ and there must be everlasting righteousness on earth after that (particularly in Israel since Daniel speaks of Israel as "thy people").

This corresponds to Isaiah 61:11 and other Scriptures: For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (Jer 33:16)

And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. (Zech 8:8)
 
Jun 9, 2021
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#99
Even if we use the [Traitor] Josephus' writings describing the 70 A.D. Events, he does not clarify the Sun turned black as night, the Moon turned to blood, or that Christ Returned. And if we want to be theoretical here, he does not even describe a single Event where the Man of Desolation sits upon the the Temple Throne and proclaims he is God before the Temple's destruction. For those claiming some are reading into scripture, it appears more likely that others are reading into the writings of Josephus.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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Christ proclaimed the Events of the [Great Tribulation] would be like nothing that took place prior or afterwards. As a Veteran Member of the United States Military, I can promise what I've read from Josephus' writings compared to what I've seen is no comparison on a destructive level. When I hear/read others proclaiming 70 A.D. Destruction was the Great Tribulation like never nor ever seen before, I quickly realize how VERY LITTLE in experience those people are. And to be blunt, how inadequate their opinion is!