why didn't god have angels guarding the tree of knowledge before adam sinned?

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#61
Access is granted by faith in the work of Jesus. Otherwise, even unbelievers would have access and that's not true.

I don't believe when God addresses the serpent in the Genesis account, he's speaking to Adam. I believe angels are a separate order of creation from mankind. Adam wasn't "cast to the earth." He was made from it to begin with. Adam wasn't originally in Eden, or was Eve corrupted by her own beauty (as the cherub in Eze.28 was), but by something she didn't possess. Adam and Eve were put out because they became aware of good and evil, not because they were previously aware of it

Now that you mention it, the Genesis account doesn't say the serpent was in the garden when he tempted Eve.

Jesus commanded demons. Demons petitioned Jesus. Spirits are real and are not the same as men.
Ok, let's start over:

Ezek 28:
11The word of the Lord came to me: 12“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. b
Your settings and mountings c were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ ”

Q1. Who is this message referring to? man or satan?
Q2. Did God expel satan from Eden?
Q3. Which day was satan created? the person being referred to in this passage was carefully created

Wickedness was found in this person without him ever eating some fruit. He was expelled from Eden because of wickedness

Q4. How many persons were expelled from Eden and at what time interval?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,405
597
113
#62
Ok, let's start over:

Ezek 28:
11The word of the Lord came to me: 12“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. b
Your settings and mountings c were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ ”

Q1. Who is this message referring to? man or satan?
I believe Satan figuratively.

Q2. Did God expel satan from Eden?
From the heavenly Eden, yes. From the earthly Eden, it doesn't say. The devil may have called to Eve from outside the garden. It's inconclusive. We conjure up pictures of Eve standing in the garden with a snake next to her hanging from the branch of an apple tree.

Q3. Which day was satan created? the person being referred to in this passage was carefully created
I don't know what day angels were created. The Bible doesnt explicitly say. Stars are figuratively used to refer to angels, so it could be the 4th day. Some people believe the creation account only involves the physical universe and angels were created before time as we know it existed.

Wickedness was found in this person without him ever eating some fruit. He was expelled from Eden because of wickedness
Yes and in the Genesis account, he's punished and will be punished further for corrupting Eve. Adam didn't tell his wife to disobey God.

Q4. How many persons were expelled from Eden and at what time interval?
On earth two, Adam and Eve, our first earthly parents, which Jesus tells us to honor our parents, even though our parents are imperfect. From the heavenly Eden, Satan and 1/3 of the angels if Rev.12:4 is a figure of that. It doesn't say what time interval.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
1,625
1,102
113
#63
There must be a way to the garden
Maybe the east gate controlled the gates somehow.

I didn't know that. Thanks.

I believe Eden is symbolic of Heaven and is a real place.

Or they're symbolic of God's heart. Here's something weird,

Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same. Eze.44:1-3

I'm not sure about all these things, but I do believe this creation God made is an image of heavenly things. Have any thoughts on that?
I actually just read through Ezekiel and this was right at the end and this was VERY interesting. It brings up some rather obscure aspects as to the holiness and sanctity of what the Lord did for Israel and I find it extremely useful for understanding the Jewish people a little bit more. I still don't understand why he chose them first, or his place for Israel. I think I may be getting closer to the heart of it though :)
Hi again Mii, before I comment on the rest of your post, I want to make sure that I understand this, so if you wouldn't mind elaborating a bit, I would definitely appreciate the help :)

Thanks!

~Deut
Having read over the second page a little more closely I think we are kind of on the same page about it but essentially in this life we don't seem to have the ability to not sin and it seems like the work of the cross doesn't ever end and we are meant to war through our flesh daily. I don't think there will ever be a point in sanctification where we "have arrived" (even though yes paul said that he had not, people still seem to disagree with it, perhaps unintentionally).

Would the Lord literally block you from sinning completely if you asked? as in perfect your temple before the appropriate time? (New heaven/new earth) No I don't think so. I find this frustrating and I am incredibly impatient at times to my detriment. For me not sinning has always been sort of a "having to pee" kind of thing and holding it and then the eventual result of what happens when one does that. It's humbling and sometimes even humiliating and I have some issues with it. My muscles have strengthened but it still feels inevitable and it frustrates me and also scares me.

Yes I've matured past certain things but then more things come up and sometimes it even comes down to the letter of the law and what the Lord specifically wants me to follow. He had certain commands for Jews that I have followed and almost felt his displeasure...it's not like I was being super pharisaical about it but I just wanted to know why it was a thing, and even random things that I have just bizarre curiosities about (that it seems no one really has that I've ever met) things in Leviticus that are forbidden that aren't sexual in nature.

I've gone on too long on this already and I get a tad tangential when trying to put sin in a box and how it impacts me. It is a sort of construct that will pass away. I want to know the "spiritual math" behind it and that's led me to some places that I'd rather not discuss publicly. There are damning offenses and I've dabbled pretty close to lines that I didn't even know were there and they just seem to really grieve the Lord's Spirit and I just don't get why he allows it in the first place. I mean I guess at some point I could discuss how deep my trust issues go and perhaps that's the only way mending will take place but I don't feel like I have much "free will" because the mystery is not yet finished.

I'm not sure about others. I haven't anyone with my adherence to crucial timing and most people I've talked with about it seem to just think that grace answers for our mistakes. It does, but there are certain things that are critical and we have to be patient for. It feels like a choice my response yes...but not the circumstances themselves.

So getting back to why I made the statement. It seems scriptural that the Lord hasn't effected that and we are subject to his choice. Begun the work sure, but it is not complete yet. I give the Lord my choices...that is a choice I suppose but I am not my own so it doesn't seem like one really. I guess it is though. It's just hard to see clearly what precisely it is and the end result.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,113
2,263
113
64
#64
If sin hadn't happened; then the Lamb, who earlier was slain from the foundation of the world, would have made a meaningless sacrifice. He was slain for yet-to-be-created, yet-to-sin people...
Hi John, I realize that the Greek word order favors the KJV/NKJV's translation of Revelation 13:8, and I believe that it is true from a certain perspective, but in what sense do you mean that a yet-to-be-incarnate Jesus Christ was slain for a yet-to-be-created, yet-to-sin people?

Thanks!

~Deut

Revelation 13
8 All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Revelation 13

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB)
.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,358
113
#65
I see this a bit differently Noose.

The law that goes out from God would be Jesus wouldn't it? He was the Word (law) walking and did come out from Father. Justice with mercy came from Him. And He is the Light to the nations. We carry His light.

Plus, is the angel now keeping others out? Or is the angel now welcoming us home? Who is this angel with the flaming sword?

Do we go back to Paradise upon death? I've heard this but I haven't seen it in scripture.
???? Today thou shalt be with me in paradise <----JESUS to the thief on the cross............
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#66
???? Today thou shalt be with me in paradise <----JESUS to the thief on the cross............
Thanks, you are right. I thought of that scripture too when I closed my computer.

There's a website that I like to read articles from called www.spiritlessons.com. Can't recall who the writer was, but I read that Paradise is the 1st heaven of the heavenlies and is where we go. That Father dwells in the third heaven. It's interesting to read these things but I wouldn't teach them even though Paul went to the third heaven.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#67
Ok, let's start over:

Ezek 28:
11The word of the Lord came to me: 12“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. b
Your settings and mountings c were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ ”

Q1. Who is this message referring to? man or satan?
Q2. Did God expel satan from Eden?
Q3. Which day was satan created? the person being referred to in this passage was carefully created

Wickedness was found in this person without him ever eating some fruit. He was expelled from Eden because of wickedness

Q4. How many persons were expelled from Eden and at what time interval?
I believe this was Lucifer, the angel in the age before the recreation of Genesis 1:2. Adam then fell in the same manner.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#68
And about free will. I can't see how we have free will, but we do have free choice. We never have a free will because evil puts us under satans power. Faith puts Jesus as Lord.

Possibly we were created to be under authority?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,405
597
113
#70
I actually just read through Ezekiel and this was right at the end and this was VERY interesting. It brings up some rather obscure aspects as to the holiness and sanctity of what the Lord did for Israel and I find it extremely useful for understanding the Jewish people a little bit more. I still don't understand why he chose them first, or his place for Israel. I think I may be getting closer to the heart of it though :)
God didn't choose "the Jewish people". He chose "believers".
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#71
why did you not ask why god make a tree of good and evil ?
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#72
why did you not ask why god make a tree of good and evil ?and just look not eat ...that's funny
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#73
No we don't, we breathe in air and there's a way Oxygen defuses into the blood.
and that's why we became old and old and die ,buceuse of the Oxygen defuses into the blood
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
646
99
28
#74
Answer to OP I dont know but God did warn them about it and His warning should have been enough, its just that adam and eve didnt listen.

Another interesting thing is the serpent was maybe not doing his job! Instead of telling eve to go away from the tree he was tempting her. Which is why the serpent got punished as well.
One reason may be that the snake ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil and tree of life, cuz in bible we always see satan with god ,how and why satan never die ?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#75
I believe Satan figuratively.

From the heavenly Eden, yes. From the earthly Eden, it doesn't say. The devil may have called to Eve from outside the garden. It's inconclusive. We conjure up pictures of Eve standing in the garden with a snake next to her hanging from the branch of an apple tree.

I don't know what day angels were created. The Bible doesnt explicitly say. Stars are figuratively used to refer to angels, so it could be the 4th day. Some people believe the creation account only involves the physical universe and angels were created before time as we know it existed.

Yes and in the Genesis account, he's punished and will be punished further for corrupting Eve. Adam didn't tell his wife to disobey God.


On earth two, Adam and Eve, our first earthly parents, which Jesus tells us to honor our parents, even though our parents are imperfect. From the heavenly Eden, Satan and 1/3 of the angels if Rev.12:4 is a figure of that. It doesn't say what time interval.
You are really bringing out the idea of endless possibilities, then we don't need God to tell us through scripture whats up.

When God says "..in the beginning" according to you, it was not the beginning, it must have been a transition from another world or an end to another world?!
When it is said "..in 6 days, God established the heavens and earth and all that's in them..", to you it means God had some other days before the 6 days, that He created other creatures.

There are no two Edens, just one according to the scripture and the events that took place in that garden are not multiple, just one. It's up to you to reconcile your understanding of the different stories around this 'garden'.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#76

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#77
Hi Stonesoffire, what is the difference between them, free will/free choice?

Thanks!

~Deut
We have free choice to be under ones authority. But, our will is not free when we have consequences of our choices.

It's always the will of another. This is what Paul (IMO) was speaking of when he was talking about Pharoah being used of God.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
#78
We have free choice to be under ones authority. But, our will is not free when we have consequences of our choices.

It's always the will of another. This is what Paul (IMO) was speaking of when he was talking about Pharoah being used of God.
Another point....would this not be the root of rebellion?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
10,237
1,888
113
#80
if he had angels guarding the tree before the fruit was taken sin would not have happened
Good day specialtoGod,

The simple answer has to do with free will.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there to test the obedience of Adam and Eve, of which God said, " you must not eat of it. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. If God would have had an angel guarding it, then there would have been no free will. Many people ask the question today, why does God allow murders, rape, homosexuality, thefts, etc. However, if God controlled all of our actions so that mankind couldn't perform them, then where would free will be? Where would judgment be?

Since God knows everything before it happens, we could ask the question as to, why didn't God keep the angels from rebelling in the first place. For if He had done this, then then Satan would not have been in a fallen state to tempt God's new creation, mankind and therefore, no fall.

Furthermore, it was out of God's love and mercy that He put an angel to guard the tree of life, because if Adam and Eve would have eaten of that fruit, then they would have lived forever in the sinful nature.