Why do Atheists Bother?

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Mar 28, 2014
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Oh, my. I think this final statement of yours is completely false. The opposite appears true Nl. It was the realization of this that, I think, finally ended my belief in God.
by your own admission you did believe in God but now you no longer believe in him... so you by choice do not believe in God and now try to prove He does not exist....
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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by your own admission you did believe in God but now you no longer believe in him... so you by choice do not believe in God and now try to prove He does not exist....

Philippians 2:5-10
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Newbirth's current signature from Paul's epistle to the Phillipians is illustrative of the doctrinal truth that Jesus was more than merely human. Jesus was the Incarnate God-Man, God's only begotten Son, who needed to become a member of the human race so that He could redeem the human race.

Some conspiracy theorists like a Dan Brown in his fictional The Da Vinci Code book would like to reduce Jesus to being only a man and only an example and not a Savior-Redeemer.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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The message being conveyed was that God never changes. Theology in its purest meaning is the study of God. The truth about God never evolves or changes but is established and firm.
Oh, my. I think this final statement of yours is completely false. The opposite appears true Nl. It was the realization of this that, I think, finally ended my belief in God.
by your own admission you did believe in God but now you no longer believe in him... so you by choice do not believe in God and now try to prove He does not exist....
Cycel, would you add some specifics and elaboration on what it was that ended your belief in God?

Please excuse me if you would need to re-iterate something that you have already stated.

Thanks in advance.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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First of all, that's not very impressive then.

Second, morality doesn't physically exist. It only exists as an abstract idea in the same ways chess rules exist as an abstract idea. People don't gravitate towards the golden rule because the golden rule is "true", it's because the golden rule arises naturally from human nature.

Lastly, morality isn't unchanging. It's something that changes all the time. Some morals do remain largely untouched such as morals stating murder as wrong - but it's not something that exists in some sort of physical state.

There's this idea that morality exists in a platonic manner.

This video goes over absolute truth, and it touches up on mathematical platonism. It's relevant because the same arguments against mathematical platonism also works against moral platonism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YnlW59--JE&index=2&list=PL3IOkNR8_9gpQa5teO1xQANB-3MiY17uk
you say morality does not physically exist...but that does not mean it does not exist.... your thoughts do not physically exist...but thoughts become words and words become action....to say that the golden arises arises naturally from human nature....then the opposite must be equally true and immorality arises naturally from human nature, then every man is subject to the laws of nature and cannot be at fault for his actions whether they be moral or immoral ....
 
Oct 30, 2014
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by your own admission you did believe in God but now you no longer believe in him... so you by choice do not believe in God and now try to prove He does not exist....
Sometimes the conclusions of deductive and logial reasoning are conceptualized without any conscious 'choice' to make them make sense. When something makes sense, it makes sense regardless of whether you want it to make sense or not. A person can be an atheist as a result of their deductive reasoning and still wish there really was a loving architect of the universe cradling reality and guiding its progress towards an enlightened and peaceful existence.
 
Oct 30, 2014
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you say morality does not physically exist...but that does not mean it does not exist.... your thoughts do not physically exist...but thoughts become words and words become action....to say that the golden arises arises naturally from human nature....then the opposite must be equally true and immorality arises naturally from human nature, then every man is subject to the laws of nature and cannot be at fault for his actions whether they be moral or immoral ....
Fault is a concept, just like morality, and they do arise from thought. They are abstract in and of themselves, and only make sense to the unreligious when related to other things. Unlike deontology, relative morality actually requires some thought.

To say man can't be at fault from his actions because there's no objective arbiter of morality in a nonreligious moral paradigm is basically conceptualizing and compartmentalizing abstract concepts apart from the reality of our existence; 'fault' can and does play a part in the natural world, as we see in everyday life. Just because morality is a primarily cognitive concept with no genuine objective arbiter, does not mean that morality has absolutely no value. We asribe value to our morals, and we do so because of the necessity of the cirsumstance.
 
Oct 30, 2014
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The necessity of your circumstance is that you believe in God, thus you need to get to heaven, and so you assign the ultimate value to the morals within the bible. You consider them the objective standard for morality because it is your firmly held belief that the biblical verses about God's superiority to all things requires you to consider him as such. But to us, your chosen morality is just as subjective as ours.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Sometimes the conclusions of deductive and logial reasoning are conceptualized without any conscious 'choice' to make them make sense. When something makes sense, it makes sense regardless of whether you want it to make sense or not. A person can be an atheist as a result of their deductive reasoning and still wish there really was a loving architect of the universe cradling reality and guiding its progress towards an enlightened and peaceful existence.
the man did not wish he said he had belief...but either way...A person can be an atheist as a result of their deductive reasoning and still believes in wishes?.....that is not deductive reasoning that is choosing...
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Fault is a concept, just like morality, and they do arise from thought. They are abstract in and of themselves, and only make sense to the unreligious when related to other things. Unlike deontology, relative morality actually requires some thought.
whatever concept that arise from thought and result in action is basically a result of the concept so the concept is root source of the action and therefore responsibility for the action resides in the concept... and someone said these concept come naturally...so every man's actions is fuelled by a natural concept and so natural concept is responsible for his actions


To say man can't be at fault from his actions because there's no objective arbiter of morality in a nonreligious moral paradigm is basically conceptualizing and compartmentalizing abstract concepts apart from the reality of our existence; 'fault' can and does play a part in the natural world, as we see in everyday life. Just because morality is a primarily cognitive concept with no genuine objective arbiter, does not mean that morality has absolutely no value. We asribe value to our morals, and we do so because of the necessity of the cirsumstance.
you add value to an abstract concept(morality) to create another concept (fault) to apply responsibility to a naturally occurring concept that resulted in an action....
 
Oct 30, 2014
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the man did not wish he said he had belief...but either way...A person can be an atheist as a result of their deductive reasoning and still believes in wishes?.....that is not deductive reasoning that is choosing...
When you found out Santa wasnt real after you realized nobody that fat could fit down your chimney, did you still wish he had been real?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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At the expense of your own family?

I have had some Christians tell me that without God’s laws to constrain them they would run amok, but I believe the majority of people would behave no differently. If morality is a human construct, then human laws would serve to restrain, as they do now, I am sure.
"At the expense of your own family? "

Certainly, if, in the end, I thought it would lead to greater overall happiness for me.







"If morality is a human construct, then human laws would serve to restrain, as they do now, I am sure. "

Following the U.S. Code because if you don't they put you in jail is different, in my mind, that considering that code moral.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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you say morality does not physically exist...but that does not mean it does not exist.... your thoughts do not physically exist...but thoughts become words and words become action....to say that the golden arises arises naturally from human nature....then the opposite must be equally true and immorality arises naturally from human nature, then every man is subject to the laws of nature and cannot be at fault for his actions whether they be moral or immoral ....
What you said minus the "cannot be at fault" part. Yes, he remains at fault.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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When you found out Santa wasnt real after you realized nobody that fat could fit down your chimney, did you still wish he had been real?
was never taught santa was real ...grew up with my grand parent.....no time for foolishness....
 
Mar 28, 2014
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What you said minus the "cannot be at fault" part. Yes, he remains at fault.
immorality would be an abstract concept and does not physically exist and arises naturally from human nature....like a storm.... the storm is not at fault for blowing down your house...you are at fault for building your house there...so man cannot be at fault according to your abstract concept theory...
 
K

Kerry

Guest
They bother because they no better and why they flee when I log on.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Oh Kerry, I see that you must have just logged off. Did you run the moment you saw me? Just asking. :)
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Me too. Laughing that is. I just logged on.