Why do Atheists Bother?

[Cycel]

by your own admission you did believe in God but now you no longer believe in him... so you by choice do not believe in God and now try to prove He does not exist....

It is not quite like that Newbirth. I have no recollection of deciding not to believe in God.

The first doubts began when I was about ten. When I was about 12 a classmate announced he did not believe in God. I was stunned that anyone would say such a thing out loud. The thing is I didn't believe either at the time, but I had never told anyone. In fact this was the first time I'd come across someone other than myself who did not believe in God. The question is, when did I stop believing? I have no recollection of that moment. Many atheists report that they simply realized one day that they no longer believe. They didn’t actually make a conscious decision not to believe. I think that is what happened with me.

Christians often make the claim that atheists choose not to believe in God. I think this shows that most simply don’t understand the actual process of how a belief is lost. You might be able to remember the actual moment you discovered there was no Santa Claus, but losing belief in God is different. It happens gradually. I don’t know that for most atheists there is an actual “Aha!” moment.

 

[Cycel]

Sorry Cycel I've been talking to your brother percipity or whatever his name is.

No worries. I was just goofing around with you.

 

[Brainfreeze]

It is not quite like that Newbirth. I have no recollection of deciding not to believe in God.

The first doubts began when I was about ten. When I was about 12 a classmate announced he did not believe in God. I was stunned that anyone would say such a thing out loud. The thing is I didn't believe either at the time, but I had never told anyone. In fact this was the first time I'd come across someone other than myself who did not believe in God. The question is, when did I stop believing? I have no recollection of that moment. Many atheists report that they simply realized one day that they no longer believe. They didn’t actually make a conscious decision not to believe. I think that is what happened with me.

Christians often make the claim that atheists choose not to believe in God. I think this shows that most simply don’t understand the actual process of how a belief is lost. You might be able to remember the actual moment you discovered there was no Santa Claus, but losing belief in God is different. It happens gradually. I don’t know that for most atheists there is an actual “Aha!” moment.

Do you know why you started to feel that way at twelve ?

 

[Kerry]

Do you know why you started to feel that way at twelve ?

Brainfreeze drink that milkshake slow, Any ways Cycel is searching and he is on the map. I've been praying for him and feel in my heart that God has told me. Hey don't worry I got him. Praise God.

 

[Cycel]

Do you know why you started to feel that way at twelve ?

If you look again you will see the doubts started about age ten. At twelve I was already and atheist, though I have no recollection of when that happened, except that it must have been between the ages of ten and twelve. I never made a conscious decision not to believe in God. It just seems to have happened without my really being aware. I went from simply doubting to not believing without being aware that it had happened.

 

[newbirth]

It is not quite like that Newbirth. I have no recollection of deciding not to believe in God.

The first doubts began when I was about ten. When I was about 12 a classmate announced he did not believe in God. I was stunned that anyone would say such a thing out loud. The thing is I didn't believe either at the time, but I had never told anyone. In fact this was the first time I'd come across someone other than myself who did not believe in God. The question is, when did I stop believing? I have no recollection of that moment. Many atheists report that they simply realized one day that they no longer believe. They didn’t actually make a conscious decision not to believe. I think that is what happened with me.

Christians often make the claim that atheists choose not to believe in God. I think this shows that most simply don’t understand the actual process of how a belief is lost. You might be able to remember the actual moment you discovered there was no Santa Claus, but losing belief in God is different. It happens gradually. I don’t know that for most atheists there is an actual “Aha!” moment.

that is a poor excuse....if the information was given to you then you have a choice...if it was not then you have no choice...for someone to say I don't believe in God ...means they must have heard about God....whether the information is true or not the individual is making the choice to believe or not to believe...the fact is I do not think you ever stopped believing...else you would not be on a forum like this...you still have unanswered questions...and by choice you scrutinise and reject information that do not meet your approval...it is people like you who make the "better believers" because when you are convinced of God there is no doubt in your mind He is real...
here is what scripture says....
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Human]

that is a poor excuse....if the information was given to you then you have a choice...if it was not then you have no choice...for someone to say I don't believe in God ...means they must have heard about God....]

The same way we've heard about Shiva, Quatzelcoatl and Vishnu.

whether the information is true or not the individual is making the choice to believe or not to believe...

For a person reliant on logic and deduction, the mechanism preceding belief or acceptance of a concept as valid is not a choice in that we actively decide consciously 'okay, I'll blelieve this one'. The fact that we do not believe is a result of the conclusions of deductive cognition. We follow the evidence and wherever it leads us is where we go. I didn't consciously decide not to believe in the Christian version of God, rather the notion of the Christian God simply wasn't logical given the premises presented to me. For instance, if the Christian God is love, then how is hell loving? That contradiction alone pretty much obliterated any belief in the Christian version of God. That obliteration was consequence of logical deduction, not impulsive choice.

the fact is I do not think you ever stopped believing...else you would not be on a forum like this...you still have unanswered questions...

We all have unanswered questions. If someone on this thread could answer my questions satisfactorily in a logically deductive manner that satisfies my keen sense of reason, then there's nothing left to question. Currently, nobody seems to be able to answer those questions, and most revert to ''only God can answer them'', which is typical of religious mindsets. ''We have no explanation, therefore God''. It's not good enough I'm afraid.

and by choice you scrutinise and reject information that do not meet your approval...

The cognitive offence caused by illogical premises isn't a conscious choice. I don't choose to be aware of lack of logic when I am presented with a premise and I realize ''that doesn't seem logical''. Things are either logical or they aren't. There's no choice involved in that. As fr rejecting information that doesn't meet your approval, if I were to say 'eating human flesh is fantastic', you'd reject that on the same basis.

it is people like you who make the "better believers" because when you are convinced of God there is no doubt in your mind He is real...
here is what scripture says....
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And then we get this kind of thing, Christians assuming that because they take the title they're by default the arbiters of the more sane character traits mentioned above. Assuming these traits are innate in you doesn't make them innate in you, and assuming those who don't take the title are horrible moral vacants is just plain unrealistic.

 

[Cycel]

Cycel, would you add some specifics and elaboration on what it was that ended your belief in God?

Please excuse me if you would need to re-iterate something that you have already stated.

Thanks in advance.

I have spoken about this in general terms, but the thing to remember is that I was 16 when I became an atheist for the final time. Remembering the specifics of what I read in the Bible that pushed me in that direction is not so easy at this point in time.

One of my Christmas gifts was a book by Pastor Bob Ripley, retired former minister of the largest United Church congregation in Canada. The title is Life beyond Belief: A Preacher’s Deconversion. His discussion of the main biblical issues that carried him away from belief in God was for me like a trip down memory lane. If we lived near one another I’d loan you the book. It is only 128 pages – a quick read.

Chapter two of his book is titled, “A Distasteful Deity,” followed by a quote from Zora Neale Hurston: “Gods always behave like the people who created them.” I came myself to believe that the horrific acts of violence in the Old Testament promulgated with the blessing of God were really the writings of his followers, conducting warfare as people of that distant time would, and then writing their sacred literature to reflect the belief that it was all sanctioned by the god who led them to victory. Psalm 137 begins with a lamentation over defeat at the hands of the Babylonians and ends with a hope for revenge: “How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.” (Psalm 137:9) Blessed? The deity I knew would never bless a child killer, but this one would. Was this God, or was this the writings of a man whose god would bless a child murderer?

Oh, I know. Now you are tempted to look up contrary passages from the Old Testament, but too late. Those other passages still exist and will never go away. They reflect the widespread abusive morality of those ancient times and now stand as a reflection of how much our own values have changed. Ripley’s second chapter is filled with passages such as that one from Psalm, just in case we missed the point the first time. The Old Testament is a window into the past Nl. Whatever the writers of scripture thought was okay, was blessed by the god they wrote about.

You have to understand that at sixteen I had given up looking for God in the world at large. He was no where to be found. So I turned to scripture. If I couldn’t find God there, then where would I find him? I wanted to believe so I began praying and reading scripture in earnest. Instead I found, as Ripley did, a different truth. The values of the men who wrote the Bible, reflect the values of the god they worshipped. The two are one and the same. This was the coup de grâce.

 

[nl]

The same way we've heard about Shiva, Quatzelcoatl and Vishnu.

Jesus is not the same as others.

None of these others healed the same as Jesus healed.

None of these others spoke the Sermon on the Mount and other words like Jesus spoke.

Only Jesus Christ suffered on a cross for others and was resurrected from the dead.

Those who got the Christian church to be "launched" immediately after the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ were those who knew and believed in the Resurrection.

It only needed to happen once but it makes all the difference.

If Jesus didn't resurrect from the dead, can atheists please explain how the church got started? Why would the first century Christians endure such hardships and deaths?

There were approximately 40 years between the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ around the year 30 A.D. and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Christian Church was established in many places beyond Jerusalem during this time. The Spirit and Grace of God were supernatural empowerments to launch the Christian church but great purposefulness was required and great sacrifices.

The Jerusalem Pentecost sermon of the Apostle Peter as recorded in Acts 2:24 declares the Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead. Nearby, there was an empty tomb and eyewitnesses to appearances of the risen Jesus Christ including Peter himself.

The Apostle Paul died in Rome approximately 67 A.D. The Book of Acts appears to be have been completed before then.

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-6 reports an event where over 500 people at one time witnessed the risen Jesus Christ.

Early Christians wouldn't have made such sacrifices for fictional fabrications and without belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus will resurrect us too. Then, our medical issues will all be resolved and we will have new bodies that will live forever. Then, the record books will be brought out including the Book of Life. Judgment will begin. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross provides for now a means for obtaining a pardon. Lord, have mercy upon us all now and forever.

People during the first century were not ignorant fools. A Resurrection story would have been "hard to believe" then as it is now. The evidence of the empty tomb and testimonies beginning with the women on that first Sunday morning confirmed the Resurrection. People believed in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ then and now.

 

[Human]

Jesus is not the same as others.

None of them are the same as the others. Uniqueness does not prove anything. They're all unique.

None of these others healed the same as Jesus healed.

All religions attribute special abilities to their deities, saints or prophets. Again, this isn't proof of anything.

None of these others spoke the Sermon on the Mount and other words like Jesus spoke.

Actually, a lot of Jesus' messages were said before Jesus said them, by other people. Not verbatim, obviously, but the jist is the same. Again, this doesn't prove anything.

Only Jesus Christ suffered on a cross for others and was resurrected from the dead.

Various deities and saints in many religious suffered for their faith and sacrificed for others. As for the resurrection, again, there's no proof here. Just statements that you believe.

Those who got the Christian church to be "launched" immediately after the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ were those who knew and believed in the Resurrection.

Right. Those who got the Islamic movement to be launched were those who believed in the Prophet Mohammed. Still no proof.

It only needed to happen once but it makes all the difference.

That's what you believe. Again, no proof of anything here.

If Jesus didn't resurrect from the dead, can atheists please explain how the church got started? Why would the first century Christians endure such hardships and deaths?

The church got started by people who believed what Jesus said. The same way any religion is spread; word of mouth and acceptance of the religion by those who hear it preached.

There were approximately 40 years between the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ around the year 30 A.D. and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Christian Church was established in many places beyond Jerusalem during this time. The Spirit and Grace of God were supernatural empowerments to launch the Christian church but great purposefulness was required and great sacrifices.

Again, these metaphysical notions have no provable or testable basis. Religions can spread by word of mouth and zeal. No need for a metaphysical prescence.

Th

e Jerusalem Pentecost sermon of the Apostle Peter as recorded in Acts 2:24 declares the Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead. Nearby, there was an empty tomb and eyewitnesses to appearances of the risen Jesus Christ including Peter himself.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Resussitation could also easily be mistaken for resurrection. Again, there's no proof here.

The Apostle Paul died in Rome approximately 67 A.D. The Book of Acts appears to be have been completed before then.

ok.

The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-6 reports an event where over 500 people at one time witnessed the risen Jesus Christ.

Paul said there were lots of witnesses. Paul could have lied.

Early Christians wouldn't have made such sacrifices for fictional fabrications and without belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Believing something doesn't make it objectively true. Certainly, to go to those lengths requires great conviction, but conviction in something doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

Jesus will resurrect us too. Then, our medical issues will all be resolved and we will have new bodies that will live forever. Then, the record books will be brought out including the Book of Life. Judgment will begin. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross provides for now a means for obtaining a pardon. Lord, have mercy upon us all now and forever.

Again this is your belief. There's no reason for me to think it's not delusional; it can't be tangibly proved.

People during the first century were not ignorant fools. A Resurrection story would have been "hard to believe" then as it is now. The evidence of the empty tomb and testimonies beginning with the women on that first Sunday morning confirmed the Resurrection. People believed in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ then and now.

A resurrection story would have been a lot more acceptable than today, before the discovery of the atom, of certain medicines that slow heart rate or can jump start the heart, before metaphysical premises were considered fantasy in light of scientific evidence. Jesus' time was a time where superstition and faith dictated everything. People died because God decided so, natural disasters happened not because of climatic functions or geological occurences but because of God's wrath. People were healed not because they had sufficient immune systems but because God favoured them. Etc etc etc.

 

[nl]

I have spoken about this in general terms, but the thing to remember is that I was 16 when I became an atheist for the final time. Remembering the specifics of what I read in the Bible that pushed me in that direction is not so easy at this point in time.

One of my Christmas gifts was a book by Pastor Bob Ripley, retired former minister of the largest United Church congregation in Canada. The title is Life beyond Belief: A Preacher’s Deconversion. His discussion of the main biblical issues that carried him away from belief in God was for me like a trip down memory lane. If we lived near one another I’d loan you the book. It is only 128 pages – a quick read.

Chapter two of his book is titled, “A Distasteful Deity,” followed by a quote from Zora Neale Hurston: “Gods always behave like the people who created them.” I came myself to believe that the horrific acts of violence in the Old Testament promulgated with the blessing of God were really the writings of his followers, conducting warfare as people of that distant time would, and then writing their sacred literature to reflect the belief that it was all sanctioned by the god who led them to victory. Psalm 137 begins with a lamentation over defeat at the hands of the Babylonians and ends with a hope for revenge: “How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.” (Psalm 137:9) Blessed? The deity I knew would never bless a child killer, but this one would. Was this God, or was this the writings of a man whose god would bless a child murderer?

Oh, I know. Now you are tempted to look up contrary passages from the Old Testament, but too late. Those other passages still exist and will never go away. They reflect the widespread abusive morality of those ancient times and now stand as a reflection of how much our own values have changed. Ripley’s second chapter is filled with passages such as that one from Psalm, just in case we missed the point the first time. The Old Testament is a window into the past Nl. Whatever the writers of scripture thought was okay, was blessed by the god they wrote about.

You have to understand that at sixteen I had given up looking for God in the world at large. He was no where to be found. So I turned to scripture. If I couldn’t find God there, then where would I find him? I wanted to believe so I began praying and reading scripture in earnest. Instead I found, as Ripley did, a different truth. The values of the men who wrote the Bible, reflect the values of the god they worshipped. The two are one and the same. This was the coup de grâce.

Thank you for more of your story. I would lend or give you my books also, Cycel.

God condemned the angels who rebelled and became demons. Ancient Israel had enemies. In 2 Kings 19:35, we have an account where the angel of the Lord killed 185,0000 among the enemy during an early morning overnight. In the New Testament, Jesus warns of hell fire. Yet, many ignore the threat and don't let it motivate them.

Life and breath are gifts. Each new morning and new day is a gift and mercy.

If it a wonder that some die early? Is it not also a wonder that many live so long?

I didn't write the Bible. At times, I do try to declare a portion of what the Bible has already declared.

I do believe in the goodness of God more than the goodness of humanity.

Pick up virtually any reference book on history and read of the wars and atrocities that have been committed.

Watch one of many of movies (like I did last night) and see depictions of violence and cruelty among humanity.

Civil authorities administer justice along with punishments.

Almighty God is an even higher authority and will He not do the same and do it better?

 

[nl]

BTW, I also have difficulty with Psalm 137:9 but I don't see and understand like God does.

 

[newbirth]

The same way we've heard about Shiva, Quatzelcoatl and Vishnu.

so you have the information and by reason of your logic and deduction you conclude God does not exist and therefore you do not believe in him...you can twist anyway you like it's your choice...it is what you choose to do logic and deduction does not make you do it..

For a person reliant on logic and deduction, the mechanism preceding belief or acceptance of a concept as valid is not a choice in that we actively decide consciously 'okay, I'll blelieve this one'. The fact that we do not believe is a result of the conclusions of deductive cognition.

this is rubbish....are you telling me it is only as a result of your logic and deduction you do not believe...so what was your state before you logically deduced and came to a conclusion? you choose not to believe and then logically deduced and concluded to satisfy your non belief...

We follow the evidence and wherever it leads us is where we go. I didn't consciously decide not to believe in the Christian version of God, rather the notion of the Christian God simply wasn't logical given the premises presented to me. For instance, if the Christian God is love, then how is hell loving? That contradiction alone pretty much obliterated any belief in the Christian version of God. That obliteration was consequence of logical deduction, not impulsive choice.

again it is your choice ,you stopped at a premise presented to you that you found contradicting which obliterated any belief in the christian belief of God.. Given that you may be presented with many premise that contradict in whatever science you support but you choose to continue to logically deduce until you find a suitable conclusion...even if it may be refuted in three months....you will look for another...

We all have unanswered questions. If someone on this thread could answer my questions satisfactorily in a logically deductive manner that satisfies my keen sense of reason, then there's nothing left to question. Currently, nobody seems to be able to answer those questions, and most revert to ''only God can answer them'', which is typical of religious mindsets. ''We have no explanation, therefore God''. It's not good enough I'm afraid.

fair enough in your keen sense of reasoning and logical deduction explain to me...a man gets a simple wound ,it is not supposed to be life threatening but he loses enough blood to the point where he dies...we conclude he died from the loss of blood....so we stitch up the wound get some blood from the blood bank and give him a refill...when he is refilled somehow he does not come back to life...in your logic and deductive reasoning you replaced what left the body why does the body not revive...???

The cognitive offence caused by illogical premises isn't a conscious choice. I don't choose to be aware of lack of logic when I am presented with a premise and I realize ''that doesn't seem logical''. Things are either logical or they aren't. There's no choice involved in that. As fr rejecting information that doesn't meet your approval, if I were to say 'eating human flesh is fantastic', you'd reject that on the same basis.

it is a conscious choice...if you were to say to me 'eating human flesh is fantastic', my conscious decision would be to keep away from you since I could be your next meal...a reflex or simple reaction would be rejection...

And then we get this kind of thing, Christians assuming that because they take the title they're by default the arbiters of the more sane character traits mentioned above. Assuming these traits are innate in you doesn't make them innate in you, and assuming those who don't take the title are horrible moral vacants is just plain unrealistic.

you follow your law of logic and deduction and to you I am become illogical in my belief....I follow the law of Christ and to me you are whatever because of your unbelief...nothing more nothing less.....if you think it is not real then it should not bother you...

 

[Dan_473]

What you said minus the "cannot be at fault" part. Yes, he remains at fault.

If it turns out that all our thoughts and actions are the result of either deterministic processes or the random motions of tiny particles, would we still be at fault?

 

[Dan_473]

It is not quite like that Newbirth. I have no recollection of deciding not to believe in God.

The first doubts began when I was about ten. When I was about 12 a classmate announced he did not believe in God. I was stunned that anyone would say such a thing out loud. The thing is I didn't believe either at the time, but I had never told anyone. In fact this was the first time I'd come across someone other than myself who did not believe in God. The question is, when did I stop believing? I have no recollection of that moment. Many atheists report that they simply realized one day that they no longer believe. They didn’t actually make a conscious decision not to believe. I think that is what happened with me.

Christians often make the claim that atheists choose not to believe in God. I think this shows that most simply don’t understand the actual process of how a belief is lost. You might be able to remember the actual moment you discovered there was no Santa Claus, but losing belief in God is different. It happens gradually. I don’t know that for most atheists there is an actual “Aha!” moment.

"I think this shows that most simply don’t understand the actual process of how a belief is lost."

I think an interesting thing, Cycel, is that you've retained some beliefs... why do people lose some beliefs and grow in others? My guess is it's feelings and values.

 

[RisingUp]

I've wondered the same thing. I've had several discussions with Atheists and always wonder why they are so determined to prove me wrong, and to make me feel embarrassed for my beliefs. If there is no God, then what does it matter what I believe? I always try to tell them, "If you're right and I'm wrong, we're both ok." But they are never able to leave it at that.

 

[Dan_473]

...the universal agreement that tranquility is a better state of mind than ... suffering...

There is no other necessary basis for morality than that which is motivate to help suffering rather than create it...

A thought experiment I came up with: Suppose a Dr. Frankenstein (yes, the great-great-grandson) came up with an operation that removed the suffering receptors in the brain (technically, it burned them out with electrical current). Would you have the operation? Would you encourage others to have it?

Dr F's motto: "Together, we can build a world without suffering."

 

[Cycel]

"I think this shows that most simply don’t understand the actual process of how a belief is lost."

I think an interesting thing, Cycel, is that you've retained some beliefs... why do people lose some beliefs and grow in others? My guess is it's feelings and values.

How did you get that from what I wrote? What beliefs do you think I maintained?

 

[Percepi]

If it turns out that all our thoughts and actions are the result of either deterministic processes or the random motions of tiny particles, would we still be at fault?

Yes, because the particles make up who we are.

If a man murders another person, one can argue that "it's not his fault, it's the chemicals and particles that are at fault!" Well, the man IS those chemicals and particles. That's like punching someone in the face and saying, "It wasn't me, it was my fist."

 

[newbirth]

Yes, because the particles make up who we are.

If a man murders another person, one can argue that "it's not his fault, it's the chemicals and particles that are at fault!" Well, the man IS those chemicals and particles. That's like punching someone in the face and saying, "It wasn't me, it was my fist."

in the same way you are responsible for what you believe...because you choose to believe it.....according to you morality is a concept that occurs naturally and I said the opposite must also be true...so immorality is also a concept that occur naturally...one cannot be blamed for the result of naturally occurring concepts.....murder will be the result of a naturally occurring concept of immorality... that would be like blaming the weatherman for a storm