Why Do Christians Ignore Most of the Old Testament Rules?

[tribesman]

... At these boards however there are plenty of "lonely sailors", who are by themselves and reject just about everyone and everything else and have their own mix of private doctrines.

I will add that I had since years back stopped discussing serious doctrine with this category. At least publicly.

 

[throughfaith]

Call it self-will if you like. The old, natural, unregenerate man has no self-will to respond to or follow God. He is at enmity with God, a child of wrath. For him the gospel is foolishness. All this is scripture, and you know that.

It is only the new, regenerate, man who want to believe. Only the new man is spiritual. Do not mix the characteristics of the old and new man.

And yet no scripture says man cannot believe the Gosepl .

 

[throughfaith]

Call it self-will if you like. The old, natural, unregenerate man has no self-will to respond to or follow God. He is at enmity with God, a child of wrath. For him the gospel is foolishness. All this is scripture, and you know that.

It is only the new, regenerate, man who want to believe. Only the new man is spiritual. Do not mix the characteristics of the old and new man.

You say
//
Call it self-will if you like. The old, natural, unregenerate man has no self-will to respond to or follow God. He is at enmity with God, a child of wrath. For him the gospel is foolishness. All this is scripture, and you know that.//
None of this says man cannot believe the Gospel .

 

[Blik]

No, I have not said that. .

Good.

 

[Magenta]

You say
//
Call it self-will if you like. The old, natural, unregenerate man has no self-will to respond to or follow God. He is at enmity with God, a child of wrath. For him the gospel is foolishness. All this is scripture, and you know that.//
None of this says man cannot believe the Gospel .

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision
of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Colossians 2:13

 

[throughfaith]

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision
of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Colossians 2:13

was Cornelius dead in his sins and trespasses prior to receiving the Holy Spirit or was he already regenerated?

 

[throughfaith]

When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision
of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Colossians 2:13

Yes after I believed. He didn't cause belief in me prior to saving me .

 

[Magenta]

Yes after I believed. He didn't cause belief in me prior to saving me .

Making you alive in Christ played a large role in it. Until then, you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

 

[Magenta]

was Cornelius dead in his sins and trespasses prior to receiving the Holy Spirit or was he already regenerated?

I do not know when Cornelius was regenerated. Do you?

 

[throughfaith]

Making you alive in Christ played a large role in it. Until then, you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

Do you believe in ' previenient grace ' ?

 

[throughfaith]

I do not know when Cornelius was regenerated. Do you?

The moment he received the Holy Spirit . Acts 10.

 

[Magenta]

The moment he received the Holy Spirit . Acts 10.

He believed before then, just as there were others who were baptized after believing.

The Holy Spirit is at work in us before water baptism.

I don't think you can really say when he was regenerated.

Though it seems you disagree.

Do you think water baptism is necessary for regeneration?

Or that it is water baptism that brings about regeneration?

 

[Magenta]

The moment he received the Holy Spirit . Acts 10.

At what point in Acts 10? You have not been very specific here.

I assumed you may have meant when he was baptized.

My apologies if that was in error

Certainly the text does not say when he was regenerated.

That is the whole point...

Though Cornelius' baptism is at the very end of Acts 10...

 

[Magenta]

Do you believe in ' previenient grace ' ?

I had to look that up Scripture says we love because He loved us first... and that He chose us. And since the natural man is hostile to God? It seems prevenient grace is unassailable in terms of the order of events in our coming to believe. Though it may be assigned to one specific set of doctrines (Arminian), and conflated with the irresistible grace of Calvinism, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. Still, I do not deny that the grace of God played a role, a huge role, in my coming to believe. How could I? I was totally lost without it.

 

[throughfaith]

I had to look that up Scripture says we love because He loved us first... and that He chose us. And since the natural man is hostile to God? It seems prevenient grace is unassailable in terms of the order of events in our coming to believe. Though it may be assigned to one specific set of doctrines (Arminian), and conflated with the irresistible grace of Calvinism, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. Still, I do not deny that the grace of God played a role, a huge role, in my coming to believe. How could I? I was totally lost without it.

Your first starting assumptions are what lead to accepting ' calvinistic ' thinking in this area . Whether its irresistible grace or the other flavour 'previenient ' grace. They both come from calvinistic thinking . Where an 'extra ' work of grace is needed to either fully or partially regenerate a person to believe or resist . Both of these terms or ideas are not found in the scriptures.
Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse you . (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

 

[throughfaith]

At what point in Acts 10? You have not been very specific here.

I assumed you may have meant when he was baptized.

My apologies if that was in error

Certainly the text does not say when he was regenerated.

That is the whole point...

Though Cornelius' baptism is at the very end of Acts 10...

He starts speaking in tongues evidencing that he has received the Holy Spirit . This is a sign to the disciples that God s programme is now to the gentiles also .

 

[Magenta]

Your first starting assumptions are what lead to accepting ' calvinistic ' thinking in this area . Whether its irresistible grace or the other flavour 'previenient ' grace. They both come from calvinistic thinking . Where an 'extra ' work of grace is needed to either fully or partially regenerate a person to believe or resist . Both of these terms or ideas are not found in the scriptures.
Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)
Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse you . (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

I did not call grace irresistible, not did I define it as an extra work of grace, nor add any other modifier to it. Grace is grace. God is drawing all men (and women) to Himself, and has promised in His revealed written Word to reveal Himself to those who seek Him sincerely and diligently. I have affirmed already many times that the Holy Spirit of God works in both sinner and saved, and have never identified it as a selective force, saying also many times that God is drawing all to Himself, so what or why you are arguing these points with me I do not know, beyond the fact that you seem to be saying that an unregenerate person can choose to believe in their state of being hostile to God and at enmity with Him, whereas I am saying God makes it possible for us to believe, but does not make that choice for us.

 

[Magenta]

He starts speaking in tongues evidencing that he has received the Holy Spirit . This is a sign to the disciples that God s programme is now to the gentiles also .

That does not say or prove Cornelius was regenerated at that moment. He already believed.

 

[throughfaith]

He believed before then, just as there were others who were baptized after believing.

The Holy Spirit is at work in us before water baptism.

I don't think you can really say when he was regenerated.

Though it seems you disagree.

Do you think water baptism is necessary for regeneration?

Or that it is water baptism that brings about regeneration?

So you say Cornelius was already a believer in Jesus but not regenerated until Acts 10 ? Or are you saying that he was already regenerated he just recieves the Holy Spirit again like a top up ? Is Paul in Acts 9 already regenerated ? Already a believer ? before his conversion ?

 

[throughfaith]

I did not call grace irresistible, not did I define it as an extra work of grace, nor add any other modifier to it. Grace is grace. God is drawing all men (and women) to Himself, and has promised in His revealed written Word to reveal Himself to those who seek Him sincerely and diligently. I have affirmed already many times that the Holy Spirit of God works in both sinner and saved, and have never identified it as a selective force, saying also many times that God is drawing all to Himself, so what or why you are arguing these points with me I do not know, beyond the fact that you seem to be saying that an unregenerate person can choose to believe in their state of being hostile to God and at enmity with Him, whereas I am saying God makes it possible for us to believe, but does not make that choice for us.

I believe an unregenerated man ( which regeneration was only available/ possible after Acts 2 ) Can realise his lost ness prior to believing.